[quote]pushharder wrote:
I understand. Honestly and sincerely.
You just keep thinking on it. You might even try the praying thing. Do the praying and let God do the rest.[/quote]
You should do the praying. 
Maybe God is doing the whole Job and friends thing, again.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee
Doesnāt matter when death comes. We are given fair warning. [/quote]
Even so, some get that last catalyst and many donāt. It seems arbitrary and not a little unfair, especially when you consider eternal hellfire and damnation is the consequence, just because you didnāt get that deathbed catalyst that someone else got.[/quote]
Thing is, FLā¦YOU know the truth and you know it now. You donāt need (or deserve?) the deathbed experience. What are YOU going to do about it NOW? Reject Him? Accept Him?[/quote]
The only thing I know is my own ignorance. God told me the Book of Mormon was true when I read and prayed about it, so the whole god thing is not so reliable in my book.[/quote]
I understand. Honestly and sincerely.
You just keep thinking on it. You might even try the praying thing. Do the praying and let God do the rest.[/quote]
Thatās the problem. I did the praying thing, and God answered my prayer by telling me that the Mormon church was His true and living church. I had that same deeply poignant, powerful witness many times over the course of years as I served a mission, studied the scriptures, attended church, prayed earnestly, fasted, and did my best to follow the teachings of Christ, accepting Him as my Savior and Redeemer. I know that I was 100% sincere at the time, just as I am 100% sincere now.
And yet I now realize that despite those powerful, indelible spiritual experiences, my beliefs were based on a lie. The Mormon church is not Godās church, although God told me it was all that time.
I can only conclude that earnest faith and prayer are not reliable as a source of truth.[/quote]
I can understand why someone would be jaded after that experience. Mormonism is one slick enterprise.
That doesnāt mean prayer isnāt the answer now. Just open up your heart and mind and let God do the work in you. Thatās his job. Yours is to allow Him.[/quote]
The Mormon method for knowing truth is exactly what you describe: opening up your heart and mind and letting God do the work in you. I know itās hard to see that, given your own beliefs, but itās true. Iām intimately familiar with earnest faith and prayer, I just donāt trust them any longer as reliable methods for knowing what is real.
That said, I still think religion has a lot to offer people. It helped me tremendously in some ways, although it hurt me in other ways. I donāt believe it reflects reality, but if people find happiness and purpose in it, more power to them.
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee
Doesnāt matter when death comes. We are given fair warning. [/quote]
Even so, some get that last catalyst and many donāt. It seems arbitrary and not a little unfair, especially when you consider eternal hellfire and damnation is the consequence, just because you didnāt get that deathbed catalyst that someone else got.[/quote]
Thing is, FLā¦YOU know the truth and you know it now. You donāt need (or deserve?) the deathbed experience. What are YOU going to do about it NOW? Reject Him? Accept Him?[/quote]
The only thing I know is my own ignorance. God told me the Book of Mormon was true when I read and prayed about it, so the whole god thing is not so reliable in my book.[/quote]
I understand. Honestly and sincerely.
You just keep thinking on it. You might even try the praying thing. Do the praying and let God do the rest.[/quote]
Thatās the problem. I did the praying thing, and God answered my prayer by telling me that the Mormon church was His true and living church. I had that same deeply poignant, powerful witness many times over the course of years as I served a mission, studied the scriptures, attended church, prayed earnestly, fasted, and did my best to follow the teachings of Christ, accepting Him as my Savior and Redeemer. I know that I was 100% sincere at the time, just as I am 100% sincere now.
And yet I now realize that despite those powerful, indelible spiritual experiences, my beliefs were based on a lie. The Mormon church is not Godās church, although God told me it was all that time.
I can only conclude that earnest faith and prayer are not reliable as a source of truth.[/quote]
I can understand why someone would be jaded after that experience. Mormonism is one slick enterprise.
That doesnāt mean prayer isnāt the answer now. Just open up your heart and mind and let God do the work in you. Thatās his job. Yours is to allow Him.[/quote]
The Mormon method for knowing truth is exactly what you describe: opening up your heart and mind and letting God do the work in you. I know itās hard to see that, given your own beliefs, but itās true. Iām intimately familiar with earnest faith and prayer, I just donāt trust them any longer as reliable methods for knowing what is real.
That said, I still think religion has a lot to offer people. It helped me tremendously in some ways, although it hurt me in other ways. I donāt believe it reflects reality, but if people find happiness and purpose in it, more power to them.[/quote]
The majority of people will always be religious. Iām religious, I havenāt left my church though I should, if not else but for the money. We are religious animals, which is both a forte and a weakness.
[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
We are religious animals, which is both a forte and a weakness.[/quote]
Iām wondering what that statement means?
Well, Iām going away for the week so I wonāt be here to debate (youāre disappointed, I know =p). If this thread is still alive at that time Iāll come back, but just in case this thread dies; thanks to my opponents (at least, those of you who werenāt complete cretinsā¦ you know who you are) for the competition. Iām sure weāll debate again sometime.
Iāve decided to not read or respond to your latest arguments. I apologize because Iām sure you put some thought into them, but Iāve decided responding to them now would be a lot like kicking you all in the shins and then running off. It would be an insult to you all to respond to your arguments without allowing you to retort.
So, having said that, see you guys sometime after the 20th. =)
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
We are religious animals, which is both a forte and a weakness.[/quote]
Iām wondering what that statement means?[/quote]
Ok, Iāll try to explain.
We have a propensity to see invisible forces, and ultimately the Creator, behind everything. We see everything that is related to us as something personal, too. Thatās the forte, we are able to create an invisible world around us that gives us direction and meaning.
Itās also a weakness, because the invisible world has a tendency to either become too rigid and restricting, or too weak to give any meaning at all. Hence all the branches in the three of christianity. Hence the moral impotence of atheism.
[quote]forlife wrote:<<< The arbitrariness is in requiring some <<<<>>>>, while allowing others <<<>>> Some donāt <<<>>>. Some are never <<<>>> How is it fair <<<>>> while others actually do <<<>>> (which is why it reminds me of double predestination).[/quote]This conversation never happens if weāre talking about the God I preach. Arbitrary is a word that is utterly devoid of meaning in His reality. ALL is ordered to his glory. To the mind saturated in the faith He Himself bestows freely by pure grace? Problem solved. ALL problems ultimately solved. Now we get to the supreme joy of discovering Him and His creation more fully once we have that foundation in place.
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
Well, Iām going away for the week so I wonāt be here to debate (youāre disappointed, I know =p). If this thread is still alive at that time Iāll come back, but just in case this thread dies; thanks to my opponents (at least, those of you who werenāt complete cretinsā¦ you know who you are) for the competition. Iām sure weāll debate again sometime.
Iāve decided to not read or respond to your latest arguments. I apologize because Iām sure you put some thought into them, but Iāve decided responding to them now would be a lot like kicking you all in the shins and then running off. It would be an insult to you all to respond to your arguments without allowing you to retort.
So, having said that, see you guys sometime after the 20th. =)[/quote]
Have fun dude. Weāll be here when you get back.
Might I suggest you use this time to finally read your grandfatherās Bible
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee
Doesnāt matter when death comes. We are given fair warning. [/quote]
Even so, some get that last catalyst and many donāt. It seems arbitrary and not a little unfair, especially when you consider eternal hellfire and damnation is the consequence, just because you didnāt get that deathbed catalyst that someone else got.[/quote]
Thing is, FLā¦YOU know the truth and you know it now. You donāt need (or deserve?) the deathbed experience. What are YOU going to do about it NOW? Reject Him? Accept Him?[/quote]
The only thing I know is my own ignorance. God told me the Book of Mormon was true when I read and prayed about it, so the whole god thing is not so reliable in my book.[/quote]
I understand. Honestly and sincerely.
You just keep thinking on it. You might even try the praying thing. Do the praying and let God do the rest.[/quote]
Thatās the problem. I did the praying thing, and God answered my prayer by telling me that the Mormon church was His true and living church. I had that same deeply poignant, powerful witness many times over the course of years as I served a mission, studied the scriptures, attended church, prayed earnestly, fasted, and did my best to follow the teachings of Christ, accepting Him as my Savior and Redeemer. I know that I was 100% sincere at the time, just as I am 100% sincere now.
And yet I now realize that despite those powerful, indelible spiritual experiences, my beliefs were based on a lie. The Mormon church is not Godās church, although God told me it was all that time.
I can only conclude that earnest faith and prayer are not reliable as a source of truth.[/quote]
I can understand why someone would be jaded after that experience. Mormonism is one slick enterprise.
That doesnāt mean prayer isnāt the answer now. Just open up your heart and mind and let God do the work in you. Thatās his job. Yours is to allow Him.[/quote]
The Mormon method for knowing truth is exactly what you describe: opening up your heart and mind and letting God do the work in you. I know itās hard to see that, given your own beliefs, but itās true. Iām intimately familiar with earnest faith and prayer, I just donāt trust them any longer as reliable methods for knowing what is real.
That said, I still think religion has a lot to offer people. It helped me tremendously in some ways, although it hurt me in other ways. I donāt believe it reflects reality, but if people find happiness and purpose in it, more power to them.[/quote]
Forlife, like push, I sure see where you are coming from, too. I will say this: Iām a cradle Catholic and Iāve done a LOT of earnest praying throughout my 35 years. Aside from one incident of a prayer being answered in a manner that I still cannot explain as anything other than miraculous, I have never, not once, heard the voice of God or felt him move within me. Granted, I will say that the prayers that I have said most fervently and earnestly do eventually get answered, but there is nothing that ever feels magical or mystical about it. I desire that, but it aint gonna happen and thatās okay.
I would say that your having gone from unquestioning faith way over to skeptical empiricism would actually be a rare gift, believe it or not. There are few people who have experienced or are willing to experience so deeply and fully both ends of the spectrum of belief. I would say that your having such experience would give you a certain maturity and heightened discernment provided you approached God honestly and, most importantly, humbly (which is hard for any of us).
Anyway, you say that you are open to either possibility being true (Godās existence or not). Well, why not give it a shot, then? If your skeptical side if correct, you have nothing to lose, and if we are right, you have SO much to gain. You donāt even have to tell us about it.
Good luck and may God bless you. I sincerely mean that.
[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
We are religious animals, which is both a forte and a weakness.[/quote]
Iām wondering what that statement means?[/quote]
Ok, Iāll try to explain.
We have a propensity to see invisible forces, and ultimately the Creator, behind everything. We see everything that is related to us as something personal, too. Thatās the forte, we are able to create an invisible world around us that gives us direction and meaning.
Itās also a weakness, because the invisible world has a tendency to either become too rigid and restricting, or too weak to give any meaning at all. Hence all the branches in the three of christianity. Hence the moral impotence of atheism.
[/quote]
Excellent explanation, thanks for the time that it took to post it.
Zeb
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:<<< The arbitrariness is in requiring some <<<<>>>>, while allowing others <<<>>> Some donāt <<<>>>. Some are never <<<>>> How is it fair <<<>>> while others actually do <<<>>> (which is why it reminds me of double predestination).[/quote]This conversation never happens if weāre talking about the God I preach. Arbitrary is a word that is utterly devoid of meaning in His reality. ALL is ordered to his glory. To the mind saturated in the faith He Himself bestows freely by pure grace? Problem solved. ALL problems ultimately solved. Now we get to the supreme joy of discovering Him and His creation more fully once we have that foundation in place.
[/quote]
Why would you question the arbitrariness and unfairness if you know that youāre one of the lucky souls whom god has chosen to save?
Where did I say I was questioning anything?
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee
Doesnāt matter when death comes. We are given fair warning. [/quote]
Even so, some get that last catalyst and many donāt. It seems arbitrary and not a little unfair, especially when you consider eternal hellfire and damnation is the consequence, just because you didnāt get that deathbed catalyst that someone else got.[/quote]
Thing is, FLā¦YOU know the truth and you know it now. You donāt need (or deserve?) the deathbed experience. What are YOU going to do about it NOW? Reject Him? Accept Him?[/quote]
The only thing I know is my own ignorance. God told me the Book of Mormon was true when I read and prayed about it, so the whole god thing is not so reliable in my book.[/quote]
I understand. Honestly and sincerely.
You just keep thinking on it. You might even try the praying thing. Do the praying and let God do the rest.[/quote]
Thatās the problem. I did the praying thing, and God answered my prayer by telling me that the Mormon church was His true and living church. I had that same deeply poignant, powerful witness many times over the course of years as I served a mission, studied the scriptures, attended church, prayed earnestly, fasted, and did my best to follow the teachings of Christ, accepting Him as my Savior and Redeemer. I know that I was 100% sincere at the time, just as I am 100% sincere now.
And yet I now realize that despite those powerful, indelible spiritual experiences, my beliefs were based on a lie. The Mormon church is not Godās church, although God told me it was all that time.
I can only conclude that earnest faith and prayer are not reliable as a source of truth.[/quote]
I can understand why someone would be jaded after that experience. Mormonism is one slick enterprise.
That doesnāt mean prayer isnāt the answer now. Just open up your heart and mind and let God do the work in you. Thatās his job. Yours is to allow Him.[/quote]
The Mormon method for knowing truth is exactly what you describe: opening up your heart and mind and letting God do the work in you. I know itās hard to see that, given your own beliefs, but itās true. Iām intimately familiar with earnest faith and prayer, I just donāt trust them any longer as reliable methods for knowing what is real.
That said, I still think religion has a lot to offer people. It helped me tremendously in some ways, although it hurt me in other ways. I donāt believe it reflects reality, but if people find happiness and purpose in it, more power to them.[/quote]
Forlife, like push, I sure see where you are coming from, too. I will say this: Iām a cradle Catholic and Iāve done a LOT of earnest praying throughout my 35 years. Aside from one incident of a prayer being answered in a manner that I still cannot explain as anything other than miraculous, I have never, not once, heard the voice of God or felt him move within me. Granted, I will say that the prayers that I have said most fervently and earnestly do eventually get answered, but there is nothing that ever feels magical or mystical about it. I desire that, but it aint gonna happen and thatās okay.
I would say that your having gone from unquestioning faith way over to skeptical empiricism would actually be a rare gift, believe it or not. There are few people who have experienced or are willing to experience so deeply and fully both ends of the spectrum of belief. I would say that your having such experience would give you a certain maturity and heightened discernment provided you approached God honestly and, most importantly, humbly (which is hard for any of us).
Anyway, you say that you are open to either possibility being true (Godās existence or not). Well, why not give it a shot, then? If your skeptical side if correct, you have nothing to lose, and if we are right, you have SO much to gain. You donāt even have to tell us about it.
Good luck and may God bless you. I sincerely mean that. [/quote]
Thanks Cortes 
Just to clarify, my spiritual experiences were different than what you describe. I did experience events that I considered miraculous at the time, similar to you, but it was more than that. I prayed earnestly and faithfully, and in my case the prayers were answered abundantly beyond anything I could explain. It was an incredibly powerful, poignant, consuming rush of love, peace, and insight that I could only describe as holy. I knew, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Joseph Smith was Godās prophet, the Book of Mormon was true, and the LDS church was Christās original church, restored to the earth following the apostasy.
Of course, I no longer believe any of that now. My research on the LDS church proved that my deeply held beliefs were based on a lie, despite the undeniable spiritual confirmations I had received for those beliefs.
So how do I reconcile it all?
Clearly, you can pray earnestly and sincerely, and you can have powerfully soul-cleansing, deeply enlightening spiritual experiences that you view as divine, despite those experiences not actually being divine.
That realization was a paradigm shift of epic proportions. It was like a spiritual earthquake. It felt like I had been sucked out of the Matrix for the first time in my life. I saw everything with new eyes.
Suddenly, it all made sense. I saw the same pattern repeat itself across all religions and faiths. William James described these spiritual experiences in his classic book, āVarieties of Faithā, where he noted that people across a wide variety of belief systems all shared these experiences, and interpreted them as confirmation for their particular beliefs.
We see it here on our own humble board. Tiribulus is convinced he is right, Brother Chris is equally convinced he is right, Forbes is equally convinced he is right, BYUKid is equally convinced he is right, etc. and yet logically they canāt all be right and indeed none of them may be right.
That is why I cannot sincerely place any trust in spiritual experiences. Powerfully personal as they are, they are fickle and they say nothing about what is actually real.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Where did I say I was questioning anything?[/quote]
You didnāt, which was my point. Thereās no reason to question if you believe god, in his infinite mercy and grace, has chosen to save you from death and hell.
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee
Doesnāt matter when death comes. We are given fair warning. [/quote]
Even so, some get that last catalyst and many donāt. It seems arbitrary and not a little unfair, especially when you consider eternal hellfire and damnation is the consequence, just because you didnāt get that deathbed catalyst that someone else got.[/quote]
Thing is, FLā¦YOU know the truth and you know it now. You donāt need (or deserve?) the deathbed experience. What are YOU going to do about it NOW? Reject Him? Accept Him?[/quote]
The only thing I know is my own ignorance. God told me the Book of Mormon was true when I read and prayed about it, so the whole god thing is not so reliable in my book.[/quote]
I understand. Honestly and sincerely.
You just keep thinking on it. You might even try the praying thing. Do the praying and let God do the rest.[/quote]
Thatās the problem. I did the praying thing, and God answered my prayer by telling me that the Mormon church was His true and living church. I had that same deeply poignant, powerful witness many times over the course of years as I served a mission, studied the scriptures, attended church, prayed earnestly, fasted, and did my best to follow the teachings of Christ, accepting Him as my Savior and Redeemer. I know that I was 100% sincere at the time, just as I am 100% sincere now.
And yet I now realize that despite those powerful, indelible spiritual experiences, my beliefs were based on a lie. The Mormon church is not Godās church, although God told me it was all that time.
I can only conclude that earnest faith and prayer are not reliable as a source of truth.[/quote]
I can understand why someone would be jaded after that experience. Mormonism is one slick enterprise.
That doesnāt mean prayer isnāt the answer now. Just open up your heart and mind and let God do the work in you. Thatās his job. Yours is to allow Him.[/quote]
The Mormon method for knowing truth is exactly what you describe: opening up your heart and mind and letting God do the work in you. I know itās hard to see that, given your own beliefs, but itās true. Iām intimately familiar with earnest faith and prayer, I just donāt trust them any longer as reliable methods for knowing what is real.
That said, I still think religion has a lot to offer people. It helped me tremendously in some ways, although it hurt me in other ways. I donāt believe it reflects reality, but if people find happiness and purpose in it, more power to them.[/quote]
Forlife, like push, I sure see where you are coming from, too. I will say this: Iām a cradle Catholic and Iāve done a LOT of earnest praying throughout my 35 years. Aside from one incident of a prayer being answered in a manner that I still cannot explain as anything other than miraculous, I have never, not once, heard the voice of God or felt him move within me. Granted, I will say that the prayers that I have said most fervently and earnestly do eventually get answered, but there is nothing that ever feels magical or mystical about it. I desire that, but it aint gonna happen and thatās okay.
I would say that your having gone from unquestioning faith way over to skeptical empiricism would actually be a rare gift, believe it or not. There are few people who have experienced or are willing to experience so deeply and fully both ends of the spectrum of belief. I would say that your having such experience would give you a certain maturity and heightened discernment provided you approached God honestly and, most importantly, humbly (which is hard for any of us).
Anyway, you say that you are open to either possibility being true (Godās existence or not). Well, why not give it a shot, then? If your skeptical side if correct, you have nothing to lose, and if we are right, you have SO much to gain. You donāt even have to tell us about it.
Good luck and may God bless you. I sincerely mean that. [/quote]
Thanks Cortes
Just to clarify, my spiritual experiences were different than what you describe. I did experience events that I considered miraculous at the time, similar to you, but it was more than that. I prayed earnestly and faithfully, and in my case the prayers were answered abundantly beyond anything I could explain. It was an incredibly powerful, poignant, consuming rush of love, peace, and insight that I could only describe as holy. I knew, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Joseph Smith was Godās prophet, the Book of Mormon was true, and the LDS church was Christās original church, restored to the earth following the apostasy.
Of course, I no longer believe any of that now. My research on the LDS church proved that my deeply held beliefs were based on a lie, despite the undeniable spiritual confirmations I had received for those beliefs.
So how do I reconcile it all?
Clearly, you can pray earnestly and sincerely, and you can have powerfully soul-cleansing, deeply enlightening spiritual experiences that you view as divine, despite those experiences not actually being divine.
That realization was a paradigm shift of epic proportions. It was like a spiritual earthquake. It felt like I had been sucked out of the Matrix for the first time in my life. I saw everything with new eyes.
Suddenly, it all made sense. I saw the same pattern repeat itself across all religions and faiths. William James described these spiritual experiences in his classic book, āVarieties of Faithā, where he noted that people across a wide variety of belief systems all shared these experiences, and interpreted them as confirmation for their particular beliefs.
We see it here on our own humble board. Tiribulus is convinced he is right, Brother Chris is equally convinced he is right, Forbes is equally convinced he is right, BYUKid is equally convinced he is right, etc. and yet logically they canāt all be right and indeed none of them may be right.
That is why I cannot sincerely place any trust in spiritual experiences. Powerfully personal as they are, they are fickle and they say nothing about what is actually real.[/quote]
Go back and read my post one more time. Iām saying exactly what you are saying. I havenāt had any profound mystical spiritual experiences outside of the times I used acid or mushrooms long ago.
In fact, if you suddenly came here claiming to have had such experiences and even vowed to commit to a life of celibacy, I think I would actually view the whole thing pretty skeptically.
Iām just talking about taking some time, not telling anyone else about it, and quietly talking with God. Not telling him anything, just asking him what he wants of you. It seems quite clear to me that he does, indeed, want something of you. Maybe something big.
Okay, thatās the last Iāll say about it, as I am veering precariously close to breaking that most sacred commandment in the internet atheistās Bible: Thou shalt not force thy beliefs upon others.
Take care.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee
Doesnāt matter when death comes. We are given fair warning. [/quote]
Even so, some get that last catalyst and many donāt. It seems arbitrary and not a little unfair, especially when you consider eternal hellfire and damnation is the consequence, just because you didnāt get that deathbed catalyst that someone else got.[/quote]
Thing is, FLā¦YOU know the truth and you know it now. You donāt need (or deserve?) the deathbed experience. What are YOU going to do about it NOW? Reject Him? Accept Him?[/quote]
The only thing I know is my own ignorance. God told me the Book of Mormon was true when I read and prayed about it, so the whole god thing is not so reliable in my book.[/quote]
I understand. Honestly and sincerely.
You just keep thinking on it. You might even try the praying thing. Do the praying and let God do the rest.[/quote]
Thatās the problem. I did the praying thing, and God answered my prayer by telling me that the Mormon church was His true and living church. I had that same deeply poignant, powerful witness many times over the course of years as I served a mission, studied the scriptures, attended church, prayed earnestly, fasted, and did my best to follow the teachings of Christ, accepting Him as my Savior and Redeemer. I know that I was 100% sincere at the time, just as I am 100% sincere now.
And yet I now realize that despite those powerful, indelible spiritual experiences, my beliefs were based on a lie. The Mormon church is not Godās church, although God told me it was all that time.
I can only conclude that earnest faith and prayer are not reliable as a source of truth.[/quote]
I can understand why someone would be jaded after that experience. Mormonism is one slick enterprise.
That doesnāt mean prayer isnāt the answer now. Just open up your heart and mind and let God do the work in you. Thatās his job. Yours is to allow Him.[/quote]
The Mormon method for knowing truth is exactly what you describe: opening up your heart and mind and letting God do the work in you. I know itās hard to see that, given your own beliefs, but itās true. Iām intimately familiar with earnest faith and prayer, I just donāt trust them any longer as reliable methods for knowing what is real.
That said, I still think religion has a lot to offer people. It helped me tremendously in some ways, although it hurt me in other ways. I donāt believe it reflects reality, but if people find happiness and purpose in it, more power to them.[/quote]
Forlife, like push, I sure see where you are coming from, too. I will say this: Iām a cradle Catholic and Iāve done a LOT of earnest praying throughout my 35 years. Aside from one incident of a prayer being answered in a manner that I still cannot explain as anything other than miraculous, I have never, not once, heard the voice of God or felt him move within me. Granted, I will say that the prayers that I have said most fervently and earnestly do eventually get answered, but there is nothing that ever feels magical or mystical about it. I desire that, but it aint gonna happen and thatās okay.
I would say that your having gone from unquestioning faith way over to skeptical empiricism would actually be a rare gift, believe it or not. There are few people who have experienced or are willing to experience so deeply and fully both ends of the spectrum of belief. I would say that your having such experience would give you a certain maturity and heightened discernment provided you approached God honestly and, most importantly, humbly (which is hard for any of us).
Anyway, you say that you are open to either possibility being true (Godās existence or not). Well, why not give it a shot, then? If your skeptical side if correct, you have nothing to lose, and if we are right, you have SO much to gain. You donāt even have to tell us about it.
Good luck and may God bless you. I sincerely mean that. [/quote]
Thanks Cortes
Just to clarify, my spiritual experiences were different than what you describe. I did experience events that I considered miraculous at the time, similar to you, but it was more than that. I prayed earnestly and faithfully, and in my case the prayers were answered abundantly beyond anything I could explain. It was an incredibly powerful, poignant, consuming rush of love, peace, and insight that I could only describe as holy. I knew, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Joseph Smith was Godās prophet, the Book of Mormon was true, and the LDS church was Christās original church, restored to the earth following the apostasy.
Of course, I no longer believe any of that now. My research on the LDS church proved that my deeply held beliefs were based on a lie, despite the undeniable spiritual confirmations I had received for those beliefs.
So how do I reconcile it all?
Clearly, you can pray earnestly and sincerely, and you can have powerfully soul-cleansing, deeply enlightening spiritual experiences that you view as divine, despite those experiences not actually being divine.
That realization was a paradigm shift of epic proportions. It was like a spiritual earthquake. It felt like I had been sucked out of the Matrix for the first time in my life. I saw everything with new eyes.
Suddenly, it all made sense. I saw the same pattern repeat itself across all religions and faiths. William James described these spiritual experiences in his classic book, āVarieties of Faithā, where he noted that people across a wide variety of belief systems all shared these experiences, and interpreted them as confirmation for their particular beliefs.
We see it here on our own humble board. Tiribulus is convinced he is right, Brother Chris is equally convinced he is right, Forbes is equally convinced he is right, BYUKid is equally convinced he is right, etc. and yet logically they canāt all be right and indeed none of them may be right.
That is why I cannot sincerely place any trust in spiritual experiences. Powerfully personal as they are, they are fickle and they say nothing about what is actually real.[/quote]
Go back and read my post one more time. Iām saying exactly what you are saying. I havenāt had any profound mystical spiritual experiences outside of the times I used acid or mushrooms long ago.
In fact, if you suddenly came here claiming to have had such experiences and even vowed to commit to a life of celibacy, I think I would actually view the whole thing pretty skeptically.
Iām just talking about taking some time, not telling anyone else about it, and quietly talking with God. Not telling him anything, just asking him what he wants of you. It seems quite clear to me that he does, indeed, want something of you. Maybe something big.
Okay, thatās the last Iāll say about it, as I am veering precariously close to breaking that most sacred commandment in the internet atheistās Bible: Thou shalt not force thy beliefs upon others.
Take care.
[/quote]
One last response from me as well, since Iām veering precariously close to breaking the same commandment
I didnāt mean to imply that all of my spiritual experiences had been profoundly mystical. Many of my conversations with god were exactly what you describe: quiet conversations, just humbly asking what he wanted of me. I received inspiration, guidance, and peace although not always when I wanted it, and it wasnāt what I always wanted to hear.
Since I now know that guidance to be misguidance, I believe the conversations were not with a supernatural being, but with a deep part of myself. They were 100% sincere, and they felt very real, but I donāt believe they actually were conversations with a divine being.
Not that I donāt believe deep introspection, meditation, and reflection arenāt worthwhile pursuits; I believe they are. I just donāt think they are supernatural. And maybe the belief on whether or not they are supernatural is beside the point.
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Where did I say I was questioning anything?[/quote]
You didnāt, which was my point. Thereās no reason to question if you believe god, in his infinite mercy and grace, has chosen to save you from death and hell.[/quote]I almost answered this, but before I do lemme ask. Question what? Some questions are insolent, presumptuous and sinful while others are godly and are the result of being created in His image.