Why Did God Create......

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
561

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
Well, I’m going away for the week so I won’t be here to debate (you’re disappointed, I know =p). If this thread is still alive at that time I’ll come back, but just in case this thread dies; thanks to my opponents (at least, those of you who weren’t complete cretins… you know who you are) for the competition. I’m sure we’ll debate again sometime.

I’ve decided to not read or respond to your latest arguments. I apologize because I’m sure you put some thought into them, but I’ve decided responding to them now would be a lot like kicking you all in the shins and then running off. It would be an insult to you all to respond to your arguments without allowing you to retort.

So, having said that, see you guys sometime after the 20th. =)[/quote]

Have fun dude. We’ll be here when you get back.

Might I suggest you use this time to finally read your grandfather’s Bible ;)[/quote]

He can’t have “fun”, that’s subjective. It can only be thinks that release chemicals that cause one to imagine and farce of enjoyment. Are you asking him to lie to himself? :slight_smile:

562

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Where did I say I was questioning anything?[/quote]

You didn’t, which was my point. There’s no reason to question if you believe god, in his infinite mercy and grace, has chosen to save you from death and hell.[/quote]I almost answered this, but before I do lemme ask. Question what? Some questions are insolent, presumptuous and sinful while others are godly and are the result of being created in His image.
[/quote]

Questioning the arbitrariness and unjustness of god. You’re not going to do this because you’re 100% convinced that your god is real, and that definitionally he is good and just, no matter what his creatures think about it. The very possibility of your god being a figment of your imagination, or anything less than perfect is inconceivable to you.

Which is as it should be :slight_smile: You could hardly have real faith if you entertained questions like I do.

563

[quote]colt44 wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]colt44 wrote:
so God messed up basically…

and of lucifer who became satan was the originator of sin, then how did he become sinful?[/quote]

I guess you can say that.

He became sinful because he became proud, he put himself above God (not actually). He knew what torment it was to disobey God intuitively, yet still did it. This is because sin is not reasonable, it was illogical for Lucifer to basically create evil and it is still illogical to sin today. [1]

[1] Kreeft, P., Angels and Demons, (SF: Ignatius Press, 1995), p. 64.[/quote]

I don’t understand how something all-powerful, all-knowing, etc. would/could make a mistake?

I thought God made everything to be perfect?[/quote]
Hmm,no,if you check out the bible more closely,it becomes evident that more amazing than all the things god knows and can do are the things he seems to have totally no clue of:
First of,man is supposed to be his greatest creation,which shows an immense lack of good judgment on his side.
Secondly,at the time he did not even know america existed.He was still enjoying the smell of burnt meat over his flat toy-planet.This means,he can’t go after any of us for our “sins”,so no worries there.
Then,if you ckeck out moses and the midianites,it was ok w/ the lord to murder,rape and burn everything and everybody,and to keep the virgins(and how do you check for that?)and children as sex-slaves.To his credit,he did mention that f-ing goats is a sin(it’s in the book).Satan was pictured to be half goat in many paintings.So maybe god had something w/ a goat and thats how it all happened?
Anyhow,I never joined anybodies religious club yet,but I always say"dear jesus,please protect me from your followers and grant them all a bowel movement,at least once a week,amen."
Did that answer your question?

565

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Where did I say I was questioning anything?[/quote]

You didn’t, which was my point. There’s no reason to question if you believe god, in his infinite mercy and grace, has chosen to save you from death and hell.[/quote]I almost answered this, but before I do lemme ask. Question what? Some questions are insolent, presumptuous and sinful while others are godly and are the result of being created in His image.
[/quote]

Questioning the arbitrariness and unjustness of god. You’re not going to do this because you’re 100% convinced that your god is real, and that definitionally he is good and just, no matter what his creatures think about it. The very possibility of your god being a figment of your imagination, or anything less than perfect is inconceivable to you.

Which is as it should be :slight_smile: You could hardly have real faith if you entertained questions like I do.[/quote]

Actually, everything is just a figment of my imagination, yourself included…You could never ever prove me wrong… :slight_smile:

566

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< Questioning the arbitrariness and unjustness of god. You’re not going to do this because you’re 100% convinced that your god is real, and that definitionally he is good and just, no matter what his creatures think about it. The very possibility of your god being a figment of your imagination, or anything less than perfect is inconceivable to you.

Which is as it should be :slight_smile: You could hardly have real faith if you entertained questions like I do.[/quote]Not actually half bad man.

Nor is this:

[quote]pat wrote:<<< Actually, everything is just a figment of my imagination, yourself included…You could never ever prove me wrong… :)[/quote]Quite so. See now if I put you on ignore Pat I’d deprive myself of little gems like this when you’re not busy lying about me. I really wish you would spend more time thinking about that towering profundity you uttered a while back (maybe by accident =] ) when you said that “in order to know anything for certain you’d have to know everything”. That is a Van Tillian (biblical) truth that would march you right into the arms of my God. IF He were ever so gracious as to quicken you in that direction =D I’m hopin.

567

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< Questioning the arbitrariness and unjustness of god. You’re not going to do this because you’re 100% convinced that your god is real, and that definitionally he is good and just, no matter what his creatures think about it. The very possibility of your god being a figment of your imagination, or anything less than perfect is inconceivable to you.

Which is as it should be :slight_smile: You could hardly have real faith if you entertained questions like I do.[/quote]Not actually half bad man.

Nor is this:

[quote]pat wrote:<<< Actually, everything is just a figment of my imagination, yourself included…You could never ever prove me wrong… :)[/quote]Quite so. See now if I put you on ignore Pat I’d deprive myself of little gems like this when you’re not busy lying about me. I really wish you would spend more time thinking about that towering profundity you uttered a while back (maybe by accident =] ) when you said that “in order to know anything for certain you’d have to know everything”. That is a Van Tillian (biblical) truth that would march you right into the arms of my God. IF He were ever so gracious as to quicken you in that direction =D I’m hopin.
[/quote]

Yeah, this is a logic fail tirib. You see, for a priori truths are still true even if everything was a figment of my imagination. Such is the transcendence of truth. It’s true no matter what.

I haven’t lied about you, nor did you deny that you said that ‘if there are any Catholics in heaven, it would only because of the extreme mercy of God’. Now if the search feature here did actually work I would pull it up for you, but you know what you said. Further, I seriously doubt you don’t believe this now.
The truth is as I stated before, you don’t have to say ‘I hate you’ to demonstrate hate, and you don’t have to say ‘I condemn you’ to condemn, but you have done both with reckless impunity. To deny that, well that would be a lie.

The reason people constantly, supposedly misunderstand you, is that you say some grotesquely hateful crap and then deny that you mean it…Sorry, it gets confusing.

Besides you lie about me saying I believe in a hippie god that allows you to do what you want, though I never said anything of the sort. The fact that God isn’t as condemning and nasty as you want him to be, doesn’t mean that I say you can hate Him and he doesn’t care.

Faith without works is dead.

568

I’m almost finished reading this really cool book called The Bible, does anybody know when the sequel is coming out? I was kinda bummed when they killed the main character. Don’t give me any spoilers ok?

…

I guess you need a big group of people doing something in order to get the mirror neurons really firing so that it doesn’t matter how improbable the mythology is or how big the leap of faith. If your group butters the crust of their toast and is large enough and it matters enough then you most likely will too, regardless that it makes the thing kind of hard to hold without getting butter on your fingers.

I just feel really bad for those who lived and died all without coming in contact with the one true religion. I am of course refering to Nuwaubianism.

569

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Where did I say I was questioning anything?[/quote]

You didn’t, which was my point. There’s no reason to question if you believe god, in his infinite mercy and grace, has chosen to save you from death and hell.[/quote]I almost answered this, but before I do lemme ask. Question what? Some questions are insolent, presumptuous and sinful while others are godly and are the result of being created in His image.
[/quote]

Questioning the arbitrariness and unjustness of god. You’re not going to do this because you’re 100% convinced that your god is real, and that definitionally he is good and just, no matter what his creatures think about it. The very possibility of your god being a figment of your imagination, or anything less than perfect is inconceivable to you.

Which is as it should be :slight_smile: You could hardly have real faith if you entertained questions like I do.[/quote]

Actually, everything is just a figment of my imagination, yourself included…You could never ever prove me wrong… :)[/quote]

Why would I need to prove you wrong? You’re just a figment of my imagination claiming that everything else is a figment of your imagination, like a dream within a dream :wink:

570

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< Questioning the arbitrariness and unjustness of god. You’re not going to do this because you’re 100% convinced that your god is real, and that definitionally he is good and just, no matter what his creatures think about it. The very possibility of your god being a figment of your imagination, or anything less than perfect is inconceivable to you.

Which is as it should be :slight_smile: You could hardly have real faith if you entertained questions like I do.[/quote]Not actually half bad man.

Nor is this:

[quote]pat wrote:<<< Actually, everything is just a figment of my imagination, yourself included…You could never ever prove me wrong… :)[/quote]Quite so. See now if I put you on ignore Pat I’d deprive myself of little gems like this when you’re not busy lying about me. I really wish you would spend more time thinking about that towering profundity you uttered a while back (maybe by accident =] ) when you said that “in order to know anything for certain you’d have to know everything”. That is a Van Tillian (biblical) truth that would march you right into the arms of my God. IF He were ever so gracious as to quicken you in that direction =D I’m hopin.
[/quote]

Ah yes, but that is the rub.

Since you don’t know everything, you cannot know anything for certain. You cannot know a god exists. You cannot know that god knows everything. You cannot know that you have been redeemed and reborn by that god. Your ignorance precludes knowing any of these things, or concluding that any of them must be true.

Agnosticism is an honest recognition of our own ignorance, and is the relentless conclusion of Pat’s profound truth.

571

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< Ah yes, but that is the rub.

Since you don’t know everything, you cannot know anything for certain. You cannot know a god exists. You cannot know that god knows everything. You cannot know that you have been redeemed and reborn by that god. Your ignorance precludes knowing any of these things, or concluding that any of them must be true.

Agnosticism is an honest recognition of our own ignorance, and is the relentless conclusion of Pat’s profound truth. [/quote]From the standpoint of anyone who holds ANY epistemology except mine, (the biblical and true one =] ) you are absolutely correct. The choices are comprehensive agnosticism (uncertainty) and Calvinism (the Gospel). Every single foundation save for the one true all sovereign, all defining, utterly noncontingent God of the bible reduces to the same meaningless universal uncertainty. The God that I love and joyously serve not only knows, but defines EVERYTHING and is hence the alone source of knowledge of ANYTHING. You by faith in your own ultimate primacy have knowledge of nothing. I by faith in He who governs and defines all, have derivative knowledge of everything. I don’t have to have been to Rome to know that it’s there. Even having been to Rome you still don’t KNOW that it’s there. I praise the glorious name of the God who has so graciously and mercifully blessed me with adoption into His very family and given me His very mind without which I would be sharing your decaying orbit around nowhere, from nowhere and to nowhere. My hand will always be out to you.

572

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< Ah yes, but that is the rub.

Since you don’t know everything, you cannot know anything for certain. You cannot know a god exists. You cannot know that god knows everything. You cannot know that you have been redeemed and reborn by that god. Your ignorance precludes knowing any of these things, or concluding that any of them must be true.

Agnosticism is an honest recognition of our own ignorance, and is the relentless conclusion of Pat’s profound truth. [/quote]From the standpoint of anyone who holds ANY epistemology except mine, (the biblical and true one =] ) you are absolutely correct. The choices are comprehensive agnosticism (uncertainty) and Calvinism (the Gospel). Every single foundation save for the one true all sovereign, all defining, utterly noncontingent God of the bible reduces to the same meaningless universal uncertainty. The God that I love and joyously serve not only knows, but defines EVERYTHING and is hence the alone source of knowledge of ANYTHING. You by faith in your own ultimate primacy have knowledge of nothing. I by faith in He who governs and defines all, have derivative knowledge of everything. I don’t have to have been to Rome to know that it’s there. Even having been to Rome you still don’t KNOW that it’s there. I praise the glorious name of the God who has so graciously and mercifully blessed me with adoption into His very family and given me His very mind without which I would be sharing your decaying orbit around nowhere, from nowhere and to nowhere. My hand will always be out to you.
[/quote]

Hold your behind, I agree…almost…Calvinism isn’t the Gospel. The Gospel is the Gospel, Calvinism is an interpretation of the Gospel; a rather poor one, but an interpretation, nonetheless.

573

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< Ah yes, but that is the rub.

Since you don’t know everything, you cannot know anything for certain. You cannot know a god exists. You cannot know that god knows everything. You cannot know that you have been redeemed and reborn by that god. Your ignorance precludes knowing any of these things, or concluding that any of them must be true.

Agnosticism is an honest recognition of our own ignorance, and is the relentless conclusion of Pat’s profound truth. [/quote]From the standpoint of anyone who holds ANY epistemology except mine, (the biblical and true one =] ) you are absolutely correct. The choices are comprehensive agnosticism (uncertainty) and Calvinism (the Gospel). Every single foundation save for the one true all sovereign, all defining, utterly noncontingent God of the bible reduces to the same meaningless universal uncertainty. The God that I love and joyously serve not only knows, but defines EVERYTHING and is hence the alone source of knowledge of ANYTHING. You by faith in your own ultimate primacy have knowledge of nothing. I by faith in He who governs and defines all, have derivative knowledge of everything. I don’t have to have been to Rome to know that it’s there. Even having been to Rome you still don’t KNOW that it’s there. I praise the glorious name of the God who has so graciously and mercifully blessed me with adoption into His very family and given me His very mind without which I would be sharing your decaying orbit around nowhere, from nowhere and to nowhere. My hand will always be out to you.
[/quote]

In order to know ANYTHING for certain, you would have to know EVERYTHING.

You don’t now everything, hence you cannot know anything for certain, including that your god is a real being that actually does know everything. You can believe it, but it’s impossible for you to know it. Consistency with the above statement requires admitting that your belief in god may not reflect reality.

Your utter confidence in your god is unwarranted, because you do not and cannot know everything.

Pat’s statement is even more profound than you realize.

574

I know, intimately, He who does know everything. He who likens His relationship to me with that of a man and his wife, who lives in me, does know everything. I take His word for all that is either beyond or forbidden me. I have all knowledge by faith in my relationship to the God who has all knowledge and who calls me brother, bride and son despite my absolutely deserving His most terrible and unthinkable judgement. My certainty is not only in Him, but by Him, to Him, through Him and for Him. A child does not know what his father knows, but he knows that his father knows it.

Everything I have and everything I am I count it the highest of privileges to surrender to His service and glory. That is the only acceptable response to His command of repentance.

BTW, there are clues all through here to my eventual response to Cortes.

575

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I know, intimately, He who does know everything.[/quote]

Not if this is true;

You can’t know ANYTHING for certain, including knowing that “he who does know everything” is real, let alone that he actually does know everything.

576

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I know, intimately, He who does know everything.[/quote]

Not if this is true;

You can’t know ANYTHING for certain, including knowing that “he who does know everything” is real, let alone that he actually does know everything.[/quote]
Once again. From your perspective no other conclusion is possible because you assume yourself before you assume God. A direct result of the fall of father Adam. None but Jesus of Nazareth are exempt, including me.
One of the necessary vital signs of new life in Christ is the reversal of this deplorable, sinful state of affairs. All of the elect in Christ will display the preeminence of Christ in their thinking above all else. Even those whose declared theology is not consistent with the mind of Christ they’ve inherited. Like I keep saying. Prayer time reveals all. I’ve never heard an Aristotelian, Thomistic, armininian, autonomous prayer from a heart filled with His grace. I have for instance known rabid pentecostal Arminians whose lives glowed with the love of Jesus who became instant Calvinists whenever the prayer started.

“OH LORD, HOW I DO THANK YOU FOR YOUR GRACE BY WHICH ALONE I AM COUNTED AMONG THE SAVED OF EARTH BEING GATHERED FOR THE MARRIAGE SUPPER OF THE LAMB!!! I CAN DO NOTHING WITHOUT YOU GLORIOUS HEAVENLY FATHER. BY YOUR POWER ALONE AM I ENLIVENED TO SERVE IN THE ADVANCE OF YOUR MIGHTY KINGDOM!!! YOU HAVE BROUGHT ME FROM DEATH IN SIN TO LIFE IN YOUR SON. EMPOWER ME I PRAY TO BRING THIS GOOD NEWS TO THOSE YET SO LOST MOST MERCIFUL SOVEREIGN (yes they’ll use that word) GOD OF ALL!!”

And then they go back to arguing about how tremendously free their will is. =] I’m not kidding. So, yes, I’m saying that ALL true Christians are Calvinists no matter how vociferously they may deny it.

577

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I know, intimately, He who does know everything.[/quote]

Not if this is true;

You can’t know ANYTHING for certain, including knowing that “he who does know everything” is real, let alone that he actually does know everything.[/quote]

Well, in a technical sense you are correct. But as a matter of faith, I have 100% confidence. Nope, can’t prove this one. I cannot prove my relationship with God, but I have complete trust in Him.
In a actual sense I agree with you, but in a faithful sense I agree with tirib. I am what I am and have what I have purely by the good grace of God. Yeah, I put in some effort, but He did the heavy lifting.

578

[quote]forlife wrote:
Your utter confidence in your god is unwarranted, because you do not and cannot know everything.[/quote]

It’s not unwarrented in the sense baseless. I, and I am sure tirib does too, base it on faith. But there is a relationship there, it’s not a one way street. God answers my prayers, shows me his wisdom sometimes and communicates with me. Not ever in a sense I could prove, but I just know it. It works, it just does.

579

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
All of the elect in Christ will display the preeminence of Christ in their thinking above all else. Even those whose declared theology is not consistent with the mind of Christ they’ve inherited. Like I keep saying. Prayer time reveals all. I’ve never heard an Aristotelian, Thomistic, armininian, autonomous prayer from a heart filled with His grace. I have for instance known rabid pentecostal Arminians whose lives glowed with the love of Jesus who became instant Calvinists whenever the prayer started.
[/quote]
Oh brother, so now your in a pissing contest with other protestants too?

And if you are talking of ‘elect’ as those predestined by God to go to heaven, that doesn’t exist so, uh, they can’t.
If you are talking about the folks who were chosen to have the gospel preached to them and they willingly received it then yes they should be an example for all. This twisting of the word ‘elect’ is disastrous.

[quote]
So, yes, I’m saying that ALL true Christians are Calvinists no matter how vociferously they may deny it.[/quote]

My ass. I want nothing to do with that power hungry, murderous lunatic. You ain’t ‘more Christian’ than me, nor are you truer.

580

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I know, intimately, He who does know everything.[/quote]

Not if this is true;

You can’t know ANYTHING for certain, including knowing that “he who does know everything” is real, let alone that he actually does know everything.[/quote]
Once again. From your perspective no other conclusion is possible because you assume yourself before you assume God. A direct result of the fall of father Adam. None but Jesus of Nazareth are exempt, including me.
One of the necessary vital signs of new life in Christ is the reversal of this deplorable, sinful state of affairs. All of the elect in Christ will display the preeminence of Christ in their thinking above all else. Even those whose declared theology is not consistent with the mind of Christ they’ve inherited. Like I keep saying. Prayer time reveals all. I’ve never heard an Aristotelian, Thomistic, armininian, autonomous prayer from a heart filled with His grace. I have for instance known rabid pentecostal Arminians whose lives glowed with the love of Jesus who became instant Calvinists whenever the prayer started.

“OH LORD, HOW I DO THANK YOU FOR YOUR GRACE BY WHICH ALONE I AM COUNTED AMONG THE SAVED OF EARTH BEING GATHERED FOR THE MARRIAGE SUPPER OF THE LAMB!!! I CAN DO NOTHING WITHOUT YOU GLORIOUS HEAVENLY FATHER. BY YOUR POWER ALONE AM I ENLIVENED TO SERVE IN THE ADVANCE OF YOUR MIGHTY KINGDOM!!! YOU HAVE BROUGHT ME FROM DEATH IN SIN TO LIFE IN YOUR SON. EMPOWER ME I PRAY TO BRING THIS GOOD NEWS TO THOSE YET SO LOST MOST MERCIFUL SOVEREIGN (yes they’ll use that word) GOD OF ALL!!”

And then they go back to arguing about how tremendously free their will is. =] I’m not kidding. So, yes, I’m saying that ALL true Christians are Calvinists no matter how vociferously they may deny it.[/quote]

Not just from my perspective. You specifically agreed with the profound truth of this statement:

In order to know ANYTHING for certain, you would have to know EVERYTHING.

Come on, Tirib. You know exactly what I’m saying, and it is the only possible conclusion if the above statement is true.

Since you don’t know everything, you CANNOT KNOW ANYTHING WITH CERTAINTY.

It doesn’t matter if you BELIEVE someone exists who actually does know everything with certainty.

THAT BELIEF, AS WELL AS EVERY OTHER BELIEF, IS SUBJECT TO THIS PROFOUND TRUTH. YOU CANNOT KNOW THAT BELIEF, OR ANY OTHER BELIEF, IS TRUE.

All of your beliefs, without exception, could be false because you don’t know everything. Unless you actually know everything, you cannot have absolute certainty in ANY of your beliefs.

Welcome to agnosticism.