Why Did God Create Satan - Part 2

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
121

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< matter being evil. >>>[/quote]Where is this comin from? It’s insulting. I know EXACTLY what the gnostics were about Chris. I even studied Valentinus years ago (actually as an offshoot of studying the dualism of Christian Science ala Mary Baker Eddy and the word of faith movement) and read a bit of the Nag Hammaadi (spelling?) find from Egypt. The gospel of Thomas (I think it was Thomas) was fairly entertaining as well.

Find me one Calvinist who believes that matter is evil in itself. Just one. I will tell you unequivocally that I absolutely denounce and reject any view that affirms such a heresy as the mythological, mystical dualism of the gnostics. Matter IS NOT evil. Morality is simply inapplicable to matter as such. I don’t know where you got the just incredibly false notion that I or any of the reformers embraced such a terrible doctrine. That means I expect to never see such a monstrous accusation pointed at me again.

I’m tired Chris. I can’t address all this, but please put a bit more content to this part "He is certain, because he exists when it happens. He isn’t certain and then it happens. " How is He certain by merely being there?
[/quote]

He is certain because he is there and sees it. God doesn’t have foreknowledge, because foreknowledge indicates time. All knowledge to God is present and also why his truths do not change over time.

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Matthew 5:18 Douay-Rheims Bible (KJV and ASV as well)

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

but please put a bit more content to this part[/quote]

Trim original post down to three words.

Ask for more content.

Nice.

Idiot.

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Matthew 5:18 Douay-Rheims Bible (KJV and ASV as well)

Oh okay, every jot and tittle was inspired, though not dictated. :wink:

125

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

but please put a bit more content to this part[/quote]

Trim original post down to three words.

Ask for more content.

Nice.[/quote]

Thanks Mak.

Total Depravity for Calvinists, pile of shit for Lutherans.

126

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Oh okay, every jot and tittle was inspired, though not dictated. ;)[/quote]Yes. I have used that phrase as something of a vernacular evangelicalism for like ever. Someone might ask “hey did you read the article on blah blah blah” and If I have and wish to answer with a bit of emphasis I’d say “every jot n tittle”. Useless aside there.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Thanks Mak. >>>[/quote]I was asking you to explain how you mean to apply this to me Chris. Those three words were all that were needed to deliver that thought. I do appreciate your omitting the “idiot” part though. You would’ve hurt my feelings if you would’ve agreed to that which I know you’d never want to do because yer jist too much of a sweety =] [quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Total Depravity for Calvinists, pile of shit for Lutherans. >>>[/quote]Aw here we go with this now. Before I’m forced to say something less than entirely charitable by Catholic standards my beloved Christopher, I will suspend judgment for now and wait for you to tell me that you in no wise intend by this statement to convey the disastrously erroneous and libelous notion that the doctrine of total depravity is in any way related to the already by me renounced heresy of ontological dualism propounded by the Gnostics. Make my day and say it ain’t so Chris.

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
The question is, and yes there is a very clear answer, is there ANYTHING WHATSOEVER that has ever existed independently of the ULTIMATE will of God and thereby betraying uncertainty in the mind of God Himself? Is there ANYTHING, any entity, any phenomena, any creaturely decision, any cosmic boo boo… ANYTHING… that presented itself to God as external to His eternally decreed plan thereby causing Him to come into possession of a previously unknown object of knowledge? In very short, does God know EVERYthing, actual and potential, past, present and future or not? Think before you answer because the ramifications are absolutely absolute on absolutely every absolute level. [/quote]
No.

That was an easy question.

The harder part, and I think where Calvin’s ideas fail, is when he tries to treat secondary causes (human choices) and the guilt that results from them. The double predestination of Calvin is fatalistic and as a system leads to despair or false hope (not saying all Calvinist’s have false hope just that there is that serious problem there). Logically, then one under this system seeks to “know” they are saved and thus tries to live a pious life. It just seems funny to me that you have a theory (predestination) that leads you to live as if you had a different theory (free will) when all things seem to point to both of them being true. We are predestined (as we can do nothing that God has not enabled us, He did make everything), but we have free will (we are responsible for our actions and God allowed us to make choices, most importantly follow/believe or don’t). Paradoxical? Yes. Am I agreeing with you? With some distinction. Namely that He gave us a will, not that supercedes His (should He wish to exercise it), but that He allows to operate. Nuance? Perhaps, but necessary I think to truely express our relationship to God.

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[quote]jakerz96 wrote:<<< The double predestination of Calvin is fatalistic and as a system leads to despair or false hope >>>[/quote]Precisely the opposite. Seriously. I need sleep Jake. I’m sorry.

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Oh okay, every jot and tittle was inspired, though not dictated. ;)[/quote]Yes. I have used that phrase as something of a vernacular evangelicalism for like ever. Someone might ask “hey did you read the article on blah blah blah” and If I have and wish to answer with a bit of emphasis I’d say “every jot n tittle”. Useless aside there.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Thanks Mak. >>>[/quote]I was asking you to explain how you mean to apply this to me Chris. Those three words were all that were needed to deliver that thought. I do appreciate your omitting the “idiot” part though. You would’ve hurt my feelings if you would’ve agreed to that which I know you’d never want to do because yer jist too much of a sweety =] [quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Total Depravity for Calvinists, pile of shit for Lutherans. >>>[/quote]Aw here we go with this now. Before I’m forced to say something less than entirely charitable by Catholic standards my beloved Christopher, I will suspend judgment for now and wait for you to tell me that you in no wise intend by this statement to convey the disastrously erroneous and libelous notion that the doctrine of total depravity is in any way related to the already by me renounced heresy of ontological dualism propounded by the Gnostics. Make my day and say it ain’t so Chris.
[/quote]

So you’re not saying that total depravity and hill of dung are not equal to matter is evil?

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I just lost my response Chris because I’m in a hurry =[ . I’ll just repost this for for now.
I wrote on the last page: [quote]Where is this comin from? It’s insulting. I know EXACTLY what the gnostics were about Chris. I even studied Valentinus years ago (actually as an offshoot of studying the dualism of Christian Science ala Mary Baker Eddy and the word of faith movement) and read a bit of the Nag Hammaadi (spelling?) find from Egypt. The gospel of Thomas (I think it was Thomas) was fairly entertaining as well.

Find me one Calvinist who believes that matter is evil in itself. Just one. I will tell you unequivocally that I absolutely denounce and reject any view that affirms such a heresy as the mythological, mystical dualism of the gnostics. Matter IS NOT evil. Morality is simply inapplicable to matter as such. I don’t know where you got the just incredibly false notion that I or any of the reformers embraced such a terrible doctrine. That means I expect to never see such a monstrous accusation pointed at me again.

I’m tired Chris. I can’t address all this, but please put a bit more content to this part "He is certain, because he exists when it happens. He isn’t certain and then it happens. " How is He certain by merely being there? [/quote] I will hopefully elaborate briefly again later

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[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< So you’re not saying that total depravity and hill of dung are not equal to matter is evil?[/quote]Could you please rephrase this without the double negative Chris?

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

How’s that? The damned are damned (no hope = despair). Some think they are saved and aren’t (false hope). And nothing you do matters for your eternal salvation (fatalism). Did I say anything untrue in your thinking?

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[quote]jakerz96 wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

How’s that? The damned are damned (no hope = despair). Some think they are saved and aren’t (false hope). And nothing you do matters for your eternal salvation (fatalism). Did I say anything untrue in your thinking?[/quote]No lost person EVER despairs of their lostness in this life. Some (many according the the Lord Himself) definitely DO think they are saved and are deceived. What you do most assuredly DOES matter. Those who say they love Him and keep not His commandments are liars. Men’s works are judged and men are judged by their works, though life and death are in His eternal decree. That DOES NOT equate to fatalism in any way. This is a totally incomplete response but I am terribly pressed for time Jake.

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]jakerz96 wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

How’s that? The damned are damned (no hope = despair). Some think they are saved and aren’t (false hope). And nothing you do matters for your eternal salvation (fatalism). Did I say anything untrue in your thinking?[/quote]No lost person EVER despairs of their lostness in this life. Some (many according the the Lord Himself) definitely DO think they are saved and are deceived. What you do most assuredly DOES matter. Those who say they love Him and keep not His commandments are liars. Men’s works are judged and men are judged by their works, though life and death are in His eternal decree. That DOES NOT equate to fatalism in any way. This is a totally incomplete response but I am terribly pressed for time Jake.
[/quote]

See, this right here is the reason I still do not feel you have adequately answered my free will question. Sorry, Jake, not trying to steal any of your thunder. Add to it, if anything.

  1. If what you say is true, that EVERY movement of every subatomic particle from the moment the cosmos was decreed, does not move so much as the length of a planck unit of its own volition, then:

  2. Everything you wrote above most certainly DOES amount to pure determinism, hence, fatalism.

I will admit that while you have made a very strong (though I feel flawed) case for #1, you have, as far as I have seen, made NO case whatsoever for the falsity of #2.

Please, do explain when you find the time.

135

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
No lost person EVER despairs of their lostness in this life. Some (many according the the Lord Himself) definitely DO think they are saved and are deceived. What you do most assuredly DOES matter. Those who say they love Him and keep not His commandments are liars. Men’s works are judged and men are judged by their works, though life and death are in His eternal decree. That DOES NOT equate to fatalism in any way. This is a totally incomplete response but I am terribly pressed for time Jake.
[/quote]

Um…I disagree. That is one of the seven sins against the Holy Ghost is despair in not being saved. Let me rephrase that is a SIN AGAINST THE HOLY GHOST. As in one that which one does not reach heaven.

The reason why despair is a sin against the Holy Ghost is because God can save anyone and wants to save every man. To be in despair because you won’t be saved is saying that God cannot save you, which he can.

136

[quote]jakerz96 wrote:
How’s that? The damned are damned (no hope = despair). Some think they are saved and aren’t (false hope). And nothing you do matters for your eternal salvation (fatalism). Did I say anything untrue in your thinking?[/quote]

How do you know that? Enter the man who has never heard of Jesus Christ, but knows in his heart there is a God and seeks to do right (lost or saved). Yeah that’s a loaded one I know and a somewhat imperfect example, but still how do you know the lost do not despair their state?

Yup.

Yup.

If you changed it just a bit I’d be right there with you. God does choose/decide who He will save. I’m with you that far.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote: That DOES NOT equate to fatalism in any way. This is a totally incomplete response but I am terribly pressed for time Jake.
[/quote]
No worries, I’m patient.

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[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
No lost person EVER despairs of their lostness in this life. Some (many according the the Lord Himself) definitely DO think they are saved and are deceived. What you do most assuredly DOES matter. Those who say they love Him and keep not His commandments are liars. Men’s works are judged and men are judged by their works, though life and death are in His eternal decree. That DOES NOT equate to fatalism in any way. This is a totally incomplete response but I am terribly pressed for time Jake.
[/quote]

Um…I disagree. That is one of the seven sins against the Holy Ghost is despair in not being saved. Let me rephrase that is a SIN AGAINST THE HOLY GHOST. As in one that which one does not reach heaven.

The reason why despair is a sin against the Holy Ghost is because God can save anyone and wants to save every man. To be in despair because you won’t be saved is saying that God cannot save you, which he can.[/quote]
Prime example: Judas Iscariot

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[quote]Cortes wrote:<<< See, this right here is the reason I still do not feel you have adequately answered my free will question. Sorry, Jake, not trying to steal any of your thunder. Add to it, if anything.

  1. If what you say is true, that EVERY movement of every subatomic particle from the moment the cosmos was decreed, does not move so much as the length of a planck unit of its own volition, then:

  2. Everything you wrote above most certainly DOES amount to pure determinism, hence, fatalism.

I will admit that while you have made a very strong (though I feel flawed) case for #1, you have, as far as I have seen, made NO case whatsoever for the falsity of #2.

Please, do explain when you find the time.
[/quote]Here’s a post of mine to you a couple months ago which points at the core truth of my method (which really is not mine) [quote]A world view, a paradigm of reality, stands or falls as a system, the individualized components of which immediately point to the rest of the whole for their validity. Right now Cortes is asking me some good tough questions in the other thread that I DO have answers for, but those answers reside in the system. It is not possible for a truly Christian world view to be philosophically defended in an effective way on a point by point basis.

The points are kinda like fish. They swim in an intellectual ecosystem on which they depend for life. On the other hand the system, the whole, is contemporaneously apprehended by faith AS the entire sum of the points rightly divided within the system itself. Circular? You betcha. Divinely circular. Bitten, chewed, swallowed and digested all by faith in the utterly non contingent, all sovereign, all defining, all governing God which is itself His gift[/quote]Italics added just now.
The bottom line for me is this. I’ve said many times here that Jesus Christ raised me from death to life in Himself. John Calvin (in his institutes, commentaries and articles all revolving around the holy scriptures), gloriously showed me what that meant and Cornelius Van Til taught me how to think like that was true. Once I had a solid grip on how the comprehensive system of thought/life/morals and practice provided from the reverent and painstaking examination of the scriptures was constructed and surrendered to, there was no turning back… EVER . That concrete hardened over 20 years ago.

I see in the bible first, then the universe, myself, you, this computer, a leaf and everything else the exact same thing. Irrefutable and entirely self evident proof of the triune God who is Himself then proof of absolutely everything else. I constantly strive by His grace that my mind, heart, body and soul are given into the hands of this God for safekeeping lest dare I say, do or think anything in myself apart from His holy perfection and thus sin and dishonor His name which I bear. I fail regularly. It breaks my heart (and His), but He always takes me back and loves me like His own son which I am.

The comprehensive soteriological/epistemological/theological/philosophical/ethical/cosmological/ontological/teleological SYSTEM of faith, thought and deed that arises as a result of embracing the exception-less sovereignty of the almighty God of scripture is spiritually and intellectually satisfying and beautiful beyond words. It just IS and that with the flawless certainty of the very God around which it all revolves. It evinces an unthinkably powerful, almost symmetrical spiritual simplicity. Words will never be adequate.

Along come the Catholics with "WOHA WOHA WOHA, slow down there sporty. You forgot ALLLLLLLL this other “stuff”. And with that the exalted elegance I’ve been presently describing quickly devolves into a rusty, sputtering, oil spewing, square wheeled jalopy right before my eyes. That is just an honest statement which I hope you can believe has nothing to do with you as a man. I have believed this for a couple decades before I knew anybody here.

This post is a testimony. Not an argument per se. I still owe you. Man I wish we could all meet in person. This is so tough to do this way.

140

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:<<< See, this right here is the reason I still do not feel you have adequately answered my free will question. Sorry, Jake, not trying to steal any of your thunder. Add to it, if anything.

  1. If what you say is true, that EVERY movement of every subatomic particle from the moment the cosmos was decreed, does not move so much as the length of a planck unit of its own volition, then:

  2. Everything you wrote above most certainly DOES amount to pure determinism, hence, fatalism.

I will admit that while you have made a very strong (though I feel flawed) case for #1, you have, as far as I have seen, made NO case whatsoever for the falsity of #2.

Please, do explain when you find the time.
[/quote]Here’s a post of mine to you a couple months ago which points at the core truth of my method (which really is not mine) [quote]A world view, a paradigm of reality, stands or falls as a system, the individualized components of which immediately point to the rest of the whole for their validity. Right now Cortes is asking me some good tough questions in the other thread that I DO have answers for, but those answers reside in the system. It is not possible for a truly Christian world view to be philosophically defended in an effective way on a point by point basis.

The points are kinda like fish. They swim in an intellectual ecosystem on which they depend for life. On the other hand the system, the whole, is contemporaneously apprehended by faith AS the entire sum of the points rightly divided within the system itself. Circular? You betcha. Divinely circular. Bitten, chewed, swallowed and digested all by faith in the utterly non contingent, all sovereign, all defining, all governing God which is itself His gift[/quote]Italics added just now.
The bottom line for me is this. I’ve said many times here that Jesus Christ raised me from death to life in Himself. John Calvin (in his institutes, commentaries and articles all revolving around the holy scriptures), gloriously showed me what that meant and Cornelius Van Til taught me how to think like that was true. Once I had a solid grip on how the comprehensive system of thought/life/morals and practice provided from the reverent and painstaking examination of the scriptures was constructed and surrendered to, there was no turning back… EVER . That concrete hardened over 20 years ago.

I see in the bible first, then the universe, myself, you, this computer, a leaf and everything else the exact same thing. Irrefutable and entirely self evident proof of the triune God who is Himself then proof of absolutely everything else. I constantly strive by His grace that my mind, heart, body and soul are given into the hands of this God for safekeeping lest dare I say, do or think anything in myself apart from His holy perfection and thus sin and dishonor His name which I bear. I fail regularly. It breaks my heart (and His), but He always takes me back and loves me like His own son which I am.

The comprehensive soteriological/epistemological/theological/philosophical/ethical/cosmological/ontological/teleological SYSTEM of faith, thought and deed that arises as a result of embracing the exception-less sovereignty of the almighty God of scripture is spiritually and intellectually satisfying and beautiful beyond words. It just IS and that with the flawless certainty of the very God around which it all revolves. It evinces an unthinkably powerful, almost symmetrical spiritual simplicity. Words will never be adequate.

Along come the Catholics with "WOHA WOHA WOHA, slow down there sporty. You forgot ALLLLLLLL this other “stuff”. And with that the exalted elegance I’ve been presently describing quickly devolves into a rusty, sputtering, oil spewing, square wheeled jalopy right before my eyes. That is just an honest statement which I hope you can believe has nothing to do with you as a man. I have believed this for a couple decades before I knew anybody here.

This post is a testimony. Not an argument per se. I still owe you. Man I wish we could all meet in person. This is so tough to do this way.[/quote]

Well, you saved yourself with that final paragraph, there. I was all ready to write, "Okay. Now that you’re done, could I get the answer to my question?

If you don’t mind, might I suggest that the next time you are getting geared up for one of these grandiloquent sagas of yours, you use at least a little bit of that time to just point me in the direction I’m asking? Even a link will do. Whatever.

This is an honest request. I’m honestly not trying to be rude, but I feel like I can never just get a straight answer out of you.

You certainly have a talent for prose. But then, so do tort lawyers. Pretend we have not yet made it to the courtroom and I’m Joe Friday.