[quote]pat wrote:<<< when I see the little lion, I shall pass on by. >>>[/quote]There are better ways to handle this Pat, but for now I helped by changing my little lion (Tiribulus, where I got my handle). [quote]pat wrote:<<< I attacked you personally and I apologize for getting so caught up in the moments. >>>[/quote]I sincerely accept your apology with no shred of smugness or personal satisfaction whatsoever. I hope you can believe that. I do hereby declare that the moment someone shows where I’ve done the same to you? I will publicly repent without hesitation.
Peace be on you, [quote]pat wrote:<<< I hope to meet you on the other side in the peace and glory of Christ, >>>>[/quote]My hope has never been otherwise Pat.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Sure you can ask a bit more.[/quote]Ok… This is how it’s gonna be now huh? =] I’m asking. Please tell me about the relationship of faith and reason. BTW, I agree with Augustine’s conclusion though his path for getting there didn’t consistently lead there. I also admit only certain knowledge as knowledge at all. How do you do that? I know how I do it. Elder Forlife really let me down here. He’s at least as good and maybe better at representing your view, the one you’re trapped in though you refuse to recognize it, than I am.
Only if you’re so inclined Cardinal Deacon Christopher.
Forlife mentioned he was going to be away for a few days.
[quote]Cortes wrote:<<< Forlife mentioned he was going to be away for a few days. [/quote]I thought he said he’d back on Tuesday? I’m not being sarcastic about him at all btw. He has developed an invincible method of proving with iron clad philosophical certainty how hopelessly uncertain life is without the God I openly proclaim.
The God who calls universes into existence from nothing by the command of His mouth(Genesis 1). The God who says through King Solomon "even when men cast lots into their own lap (roll dice), every result is mine (Proverbs 16:33, accurate paraphrase). The God who sends the pagan king of Assyria against His own nation Israel as judgment even though it wasn’t the king’s intent and then punishes the king AND his armies for so doing and not giving The LORD glory for the victorious campaign (Isaiah 10). Who says that All the nations amount to nothing in his presence. He considers them less than nothing and worthless. (Isaiah 40, WOOO HOOO, read that chapter and prepare to fall on your face). The God who “Declares the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure” (Isaiah 46)
The God who says through the prophet Jeremiah “<<< that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps” (Jeremiah 10:33). The God who tells Ezekiel to make sure Israel understands that if they be bold enough to come to one of His prophets after bowing to idols that He will answer Himself in fury and the man AND the prophet will be destroyed for such insolence (Ezekiel 14, another accurate paraphrase). The God without whom not one sparrow dares to fall to the ground (Matthew 10:29) The God who says “my sheep hear my voice<<<>>>and they will never perish, while telling the pharisees that they do not believe becuase they are not His sheep”. (John 10). The God who being “The Word” was in the beginning both with God and God Himself, who became flesh and dwelt among us, manifesting all the fullness of the Godhead bodily (John 1:1, 14, 18 and Colossians 2:9).
God the Holy Spirit who descended on the 120 in the upper room on the day of Pentecost in the 2nd chapter of the acts of the apostles transforming a brash loud mouthed meathead into an awesome mighty preacher of the oracles of the most high God. Not to mention the final launching of the fulfillment of the promise made to Abraham 2000 years earlier that in him all the nations of the earth would be blessed.
The God who met a Jesus hating persecutor and murderer of Christians on the road to Damascus in the person of Saul of Tarsus and asked him if he would like to submit his free will by becoming one of His apostles. Oops, actually Christ put him on the ground, blinded Him and then proceeded to TELL him what he was going to do.
The god who uses this Pharisee Saul, now Paul the apostle (God always gets His way) to say to the Corinthians “Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.” Too bad so many disagree and insist on building an allegedly Christian house on a foundation of sandy autonomous Greek wisdom, exalting Aristotle’s 4th book of the metaphysics over the Word of God.
The God who further states through Paul that ALL men know him and purposely suppress that truth in their own unrighteousness. That He has made Himself unavoidably evident in them and everywhere else so that “His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.” (Romans 1) The God who by these statements calls all atheists and agnostics liars, clinging to their unbelief in an effort to escape moral responsibility to Him. The God who calls all men guilty from the time of Adam to Moses, with or without the law. (1st 5 chapters of Romans) The God who loved Jacob and hated Esau, twins not yet born and who answers human objections to His sovereignty with the effective affirmation that “I’m God and you ain’t (Romans 9, another accurate paraphrase)”.
The God who “chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,<<<>>> summing up<> all things in Christ,<<<>>>{with us having been} been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will”. (Ephesians 1, accurately redacted for this post for the sake of my already long lost brevity)
The God who while I was dead in trespasses in sins, by nature a child of wrath, living according the world, (a state that Paul includes himself in though a pharisee of pharisees), God loved me and raised me up with Him, and seated me with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus that I may live in good works that even these He prepared beforehand that I should walk in them. (Ephesians 2)
The God who wondrously illustrates the beautiful intimate relationship in His covenant of love with mankind through the beautiful intimate one flesh relationship of a man and his wife (Ephesians 5)
The Lord who Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. (1st Thessalonians 4:16)
THAT GOD!!! OH HALLELUJAH!!! Call me whatever you want, but somehow “uncaused first cause” or “prime mover” does seem more than jist a bit insulting to such a God as this. This God who’s whole eternal counsel stands just because it’s HIS own eternal counsel is alone able to deliver men from spiritual death and it’s commensurate accursed philosophical uncertainty.
If the popular view of the free will of man is true and God must make His decisions based on anything external to Himself then Elder Forlife’s method and conclusion are unassailably correct and we should eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die.
The short answer to your question Cortes (you know the one), is that the reality God did in fact create as revealed in His word, and that is bopping us incessantly on the forehead in light of that word no matter were we look, does not allow it. HE alone is absolutely free and HE alone is absolutely certain and through HIM alone is any truth actually true at all. 2+2=4 for absolutely everybody. Christians know why. Unbelievers CANNOT know why and are hence forced to settle for ultimate uncertainty even in the realm of 1st grade mathematics.
Non Calvinistic true Christians (and there are millions), live inconsistently with the philosophical foundation of their own faith. They have the same agnostic foundation Elder Forlife does. They want the certainty of God without the sovereignty of God. Unbelievers claiming certainty live inconsistently with the foundation of their faith as well. They want the certainty of God with no god at all. (Though they will vociferously deny that) Unbelieving agnostics like Elder Forlife live consistently with their professed foundation, but the foundation itself is unable to deliver on it’s promise so they unavoidably function under the assumption of certainty on one hand while denying it on the other. Being the finite critters that we are, every ultimate question and potential answer there is must be encountered through faith because we are by definition unable to resolve the ultimate.
Only the entirely uncontingent God I proclaim, Who was once the predominant God of this continent(and Europe as well actually), resolves EVERYTHING into His all wise, all knowing, all powerful intellect thus providing the basis for concluding ANYTHING with certainty. In other words ALL knowledge, including the vaunted law of non contradiction, depends ultimately upon the God of Christianity for it’s validity for both believer and unbeliever alike whether anybody likes it or not.
BTW, anyone who makes it through this whole post deserves some kinda prize. Forgive me for my long windedness. I could proclaim His glory til the day I died if I didn’t pull myself away. Stuff to do now.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Sure you can ask a bit more.[/quote]Ok… This is how it’s gonna be now huh? =] I’m asking. Please tell me about the relationship of faith and reason. BTW, I agree with Augustine’s conclusion though his path for getting there didn’t consistently lead there. I also admit only certain knowledge as knowledge at all. How do you do that? I know how I do it. Elder Forlife really let me down here. He’s at least as good and maybe better at representing your view, the one you’re trapped in though you refuse to recognize it, than I am.
Only if you’re so inclined Cardinal Deacon Christopher.
[/quote]
Cardinal Deacon Christopher? That doesn’t even make sense. You can’t be a Cardinal and a Deacon.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
elucidate “faith and reason” for me.[/quote]
Revealed truth with reason, par St. Augustine. That he wrote of when writing against the sceptics of Academy who admitted no certain–only probable knowledge.
Mas?[/quote]
Mas…“For if I am deceived, I am.” One of my favorite lines from dude.[/quote]Ok yer weird’n me out now. I don’t know where you are. Can I ask for a bit more. I’m really disappointed that Elder Forlife has not shown back up. He was doin a first rate job of demonstrating the inescapable uncertainty of the autonomous worldview. BTW, you know I wouldn’t ignore you, but I didn’t get free once yesterday til after midnight. You and I need about 2 weeks in the same room to actually go over everything that’s hangin out there anyway.
[/quote]
For some reason, when I typed out the quote from Augustine…it didn’t publish the whole thing:
“I am not at all afraid of the arguments of the Academicians, who say, ‘What if you are deceived?’ For if I am deceived, I am.”
Same idea, but better context for those who haven’t read De Cititate Dei.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:<<< Forlife mentioned he was going to be away for a few days. [/quote]I thought he said he’d back on Tuesday? I’m not being sarcastic about him at all btw. He has developed an invincible method of proving with iron clad philosophical certainty how hopelessly uncertain life is without the God I openly proclaim.
The God who calls universes into existence from nothing by the command of His mouth(Genesis 1). The God who says through King Solomon "even when men cast lots into their own lap (roll dice), every result is mine (Proverbs 16:33, accurate paraphrase). The God who sends the pagan king of Assyria against His own nation Israel as judgment even though it wasn’t the king’s intent and then punishes the king AND his armies for so doing and not giving The LORD glory for the victorious campaign (Isaiah 10). Who says that All the nations amount to nothing in his presence. He considers them less than nothing and worthless. (Isaiah 40, WOOO HOOO, read that chapter and prepare to fall on your face). The God who “Declares the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure” (Isaiah 46) [/quote]
Genesis 1:26-31, “Let us make man to our image and likeness…And God saw they were very good.”
[quote]The God who says through the prophet Jeremiah “<<< that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps” (Jeremiah 10:33). The God who tells Ezekiel to make sure Israel understands that if they be bold enough to come to one of His prophets after bowing to idols that He will answer Himself in fury and the man AND the prophet will be destroyed for such insolence (Ezekiel 14, another accurate paraphrase). The God without whom not one sparrow dares to fall to the ground (Matthew 10:29) The God who says “my sheep hear my voice<<<>>>and they will never perish, while telling the pharisees that they do not believe becuase they are not His sheep”. (John 10). The God who being “The Word” was in the beginning both with God and God Himself, who became flesh and dwelt among us, manifesting all the fullness of the Godhead bodily (John 1:1, 14, 18 and Colossians 2:9).
God the Holy Spirit who descended on the 120 in the upper room on the day of Pentecost in the 2nd chapter of the acts of the apostles transforming a brash loud mouthed meathead into an awesome mighty preacher of the oracles of the most high God.[/quote]
Don’t you forget that those 120, were His brothers. They were not just the 120. They were 120 Brothers of the New Covenant.
[quote]Not to mention the final launching of the fulfillment of the promise made to Abraham 2000 years earlier that in him all the nations of the earth would be blessed.
The God who met a Jesus hating persecutor and murderer of Christians on the road to Damascus in the person of Saul of Tarsus and asked him if he would like to submit his free will by becoming one of His apostles. Oops, actually Christ put him on the ground, blinded Him and then proceeded to TELL him what he was going to do.[/quote]
Isaiah 1:18, “‘Come now, and let us reason together,’ Says the LORD, ‘Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They will be like wool.’”
At least you write better than most Calvinist at times.
What is this Christopher? I give ya some love and now yer slackin on me? You should have left this post alone until you had time to give it a bit more juice. These are some cheap Arminian responses. I could defend your position better than this.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< At least you write better than most Calvinist at times.
[/quote]And what’s this now? Christopherese for: “your content really sucks, but your delivery is better than average among such pitifully deceived individuals as yourself”?
No,they do not.
They can always say "that’s “God’s Will”. But this is an universal and automatic answer to any “why ?” question.
Since Christians doesn’t know why “that’s God’s Will”, they doesn’t have more 2+2=4 knowledge than anyone else.
[quote]
Unbelievers CANNOT know why and are hence forced to settle for ultimate uncertainty even in the realm of 1st grade mathematics.[/quote]
we are all forced to settle for ultimate uncertainty.
The only difference between religious and non-religious people is that religious people should actually understand this fact a bit better than non-religious people.
We are forced to settle for ultimate uncertainty precisely because we are not Gods.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
What is this Christopher? I give ya some love and now yer slackin on me? You should have left this post alone until you had time to give it a bit more juice. These are some cheap Arminian responses. I could defend your position better than this.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< At least you write better than most Calvinist at times.
[/quote]And what’s this now? Christopherese for: “your content really sucks, but your delivery is better than average among such pitifully deceived individuals as yourself”?
[/quote]
Wasn’t judging you on your theology. I was basing it on the fact that you said your writing was long winded and hard to read…which I don’t think it is.
Arminian? You mean scripture…because that’s all I posted.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Wasn’t judging you on your theology. I was basing it on the fact that you said your writing was long winded and hard to read…which I don’t think it is. >>>[/quote]Do I sniff a compliment in here Chris? If so I stand corrected and say thank you. It means a lot coming from you. I wouldn’t have minded if you were subtly jabbin me BTW. [quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Arminian? You mean scripture…because that’s all I posted.[/quote] That’s all I posted too. Now what? You posted anthrocentric passages and I posted theocentric passages. I say the God passages govern and interpret the man passages. What about you.
Try this Chris. Was there anything whatsoever uncertain before creation? ANYTHING? Was it certain for instance which individuals by name and DNA would be saved and which would be damned before God created Adam and Eve? Yea or nay?
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Wasn’t judging you on your theology. I was basing it on the fact that you said your writing was long winded and hard to read…which I don’t think it is. >>>[/quote]Do I sniff a compliment in here Chris? If so I stand corrected and say thank you. It means a lot coming from you. I wouldn’t have minded if you were subtly jabbin me BTW. [quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Arminian? You mean scripture…because that’s all I posted.[/quote] That’s all I posted too. Now what? You posted anthrocentric passages and I posted theocentric passages. I say the God passages govern and interpret the man passages. What about you.
Try this Chris. Was there anything whatsoever uncertain before creation? ANYTHING? Was it certain for instance which individuals by name and DNA would be saved and which would be damned before God created Adam and Eve? Yea or nay?[/quote]
Since God sits outside of time, how does “before” creation have any logical bearing upon this question?
Sure, he knew then and he knows now, as God IS then and IS now. That’s actually exactly why human free will is indeed possible. God IS at every moment and point in time, which still allows us to make our own choices, which he wants, yet does not remove from his omnipotence or omniscience one iota.
I’d also like to hear your differentiation between the “anthocentric” and “theocentric” portions of scripture. A couple of the passages Chris posted above seemed anything but anthrocentric.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:<<< Kamui I’ve never prayed for you. Not on purpose, I just never have. I think I’ll start tonight.[/quote] As I was reading back through this thread to see how badly I may have fallen short in representing my savior (for my own edification), I saw this from the other night. Kamui, this may have come across as if I believed you to be some especially pitiful or egregious sinner or something. I did not mean it that way. When I commit to pray for somebody it’s actually an act of high regard. Like I told Ephrem a long time ago. I cannot help but love somebody I’m praying for. It’s a service to and an investment in that person.
Of course to you this will simply be the ramblings of a self deluded, but probably well meaning religious fruitcake. Nonetheless I wanted you to receive it the way I meant it.
[quote]kamui wrote:
No,they do not.
They can always say "that’s “God’s Will”. But this is an universal and automatic answer to any “why ?” question.
Since Christians doesn’t know why “that’s God’s Will”, they doesn’t have more 2+2=4 knowledge than anyone else.
I think you handle the language quite well. 
French is native? Do you live in
France?
Further the mathematics example elicits one of two possibilities only. A revert to cosmology, which does not define the Necessary Being as anything other than being necessary and causal. Or the other is a ‘God of gaps’ argument which is fallacious garbage that has been garbage for millennia.
I do believe in deductive certainty, which only speaks to something very narrow, that which is defined by the deduction is certain in all possible worlds and scenarios. It does not speak to why it’s that way, only that it is. Everything else is inferred which is uncertain. People misunderstand just how narrow deduction is…
You’re an interesting dude…One day I like to dig into your brain a bit more…
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I say that the Divinely protected Church, that is protected by the Holy Ghost, is the only one that can interpret scripture.
I’m getting the idea that you don’t understand the concept of omnipresent or Eternal.
There is no “before creation” for God, in the sense that he doesn’t experience time in singularity. He experiences it universally. As in…God sees both the creation of the Universe and when we die --everything in between those two points and before/after…since he is not bound by time–at once. So even if he was certain that doesn’t mean that there is double predestination. Those who go to hell, go because they freely choose to remove themselves from God’s love.
Those who go to Heaven or purgatory go because of Grace, in which we receive the gift of Faith. Faith being the theological virtue in which we believe what God has revealed to us and what the Church puts forth for the faithful to believe. This is followed by our meriting salvation (not the same thing as earning) through fear and trembling in which we fulfill the third virtue, Charity – that which will last forever – in which we love God above all things for his own sake, and our neighbor as ourselves for the love of God. We do this all in the virtue of hope, being that we desire the kingdom of heaven and eternal life as our happiness, placing our trust in Christ’s promises and relying not on our own strength, but on the help of the grace of the Holy Spirit.
Though you put forth “theocentric” scripture and I put “anthrocentric” scripture, I didn’t discredit your posting of scripture. Though you did call the scripture I put forth (which is God-breathed, though I know how you believe that James is an Epistle of Straw or a lesser Epistle, as I once did myself in a Calvinist congregation) Arminian. Which is strange, because the truth is that even though you think man is no more a pile of dung…and sometimes a hill of shit covered in snow, God created us in his image and he did declare his creation very good ONLY after he created man in Genesis 1.
I don’t deny that there is Original Sin (I know there is, I am a realist after all), but matter isn’t evil as Calvinist put it…after all God created it and he died for it so it can’t be worthless. That is what the heretical Gnostics believed in the early centuries. And, even the Scriptures say that our bodies will be assumed into Heaven. Though of course they will be our regenerated bodies like Jesus’ at the transfiguration with Moses and Abraham in front of Peter John and James. Nevertheless, they will still be our bodies. God even loved man (which is made up of spirit and matter) that he assumed matter or flesh lovingly not begrudgingly.
To further my point, God made six covenants with flesh and blood because he loved it so much. He even let his beloved Angel, Lucifer fall into the pit of his own making, Hell, so that he could assume flesh and blood and man could assume godliness and make man higher than all the Angels.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< I’m getting the idea that you don’t understand the concept of omnipresent or Eternal. >>>[/quote] I must be the only one of us who pays attention when others speak around here. You guys really think I don’t understand (as much as humanly possible) the eternal consciousness of God? Really? That’s systematic theology proper 101. [quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< There is no “before creation” for God, in the sense that he doesn’t experience time in singularity. He experiences it universally. As in…God sees both the creation of the Universe and when we die --everything in between those two points and before/after…since he is not bound by time–at once. >>>[/quote]Ya know, I just assumed we were all on the same page with this. I have stated this myself many times. Most recently, if I recall, when dealing with Pat on the logical disaster of the incarnation. I said not only is it logically impossible (from our viewpoint) for a God who says He does not change to once (a reference to time) have no body and then (another reference to time) permanently (yet another reference to time) assume one in His second person, but that the whole concept of before and after have no defining hold on a God who created time itself. Do I have to look it up and quote myself here again? However, God Himself speaks in terms of time everywhere all over the bible for our sake since we are not equipped with His unique perspective of the eternal now. This is an example of the groovy theological term "anthropopathism. That is where God describes Himself in psychological, emotional or intellectual terms by which He purposely condescends to our level for the sake of our understanding. Similar to an “anthropomorphism” where He ascribes to Himself fictitious physical attributes for the same purpose. I.E., the hand of God etc. I honestly didn’t know I was being this gravely underestimated. [quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< So even if he was certain that doesn’t mean that there is double predestination. >>>[/quote] Does it mean that only those He was certain would come… will? [quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Those who go to hell, go because they freely choose to remove themselves from God’s love. >>>[/quote] I would say, like the scriptures everywhere declare, that they were never in His love and freely choose to stay that way. [quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Those who go to Heaven <<<>>> go because of Grace, in which we receive the gift of Faith. Faith being the theological virtue in which we believe what God has revealed to us and what the Church puts forth for the faithful to believe. This is followed by our meriting salvation (not the same thing as earning) through fear and trembling in which we fulfill the third virtue, Charity – that which will last forever – in which we love God above all things for his own sake, and our neighbor as ourselves for the love of God. We do this all in the virtue of hope, being that we desire the kingdom of heaven and eternal life as our happiness, placing our trust in Christ’s promises and relying not on our own strength, but on the help of the grace of the Holy Spirit. >>>[/quote] This is a masterfully crafted paragraph right here Chris and there is SO much I can go along with there with just that subtle but fatal underlying theological blood clot preventing me from giving it the efficacious nod. I might even go along with some version of the meritorious maintenance thing (yes, I understand the difference between post salvation merit and earning salvation in the first place) if this: “placing our trust in Christ’s promises and relying not on our own strength, but on the help of the grace of the Holy Spirit.” is understood properly. [quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Though you put forth “theocentric” scripture and I put “anthrocentric” scripture, >>>[/quote] It’s a difference in focus not authority. [quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Though you did call the scripture I put forth<<<>>> Arminian. >>>[/quote]No no NO, I did not do any such thing. I called YOUR USE of them “Arminian”. As if their mere existence and your bringing them into view somehow discredited the comprehensively sovereign all defining God I was proclaiming from the theocentric passages. [quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< scripture.(which is God-breathed), >>>[/quote]Of course it is. Down to the jot n tittle of the autographs. [quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< though I know how you believe that James is an Epistle of Straw or a lesser Epistle, as I once did myself in a Calvinist congregation) >>>[/quote]Dear Christ almighty!!! What is it with you people Christopher!!! I may struggle with arrogance, but at least I pay attention and take people seriously when they speak. I have spoken DIRECTLY TO YOU PERSONALLY about my view of James as being every bit as authoritative and powerful as any of Paul’s epistles when I was addressing the fact that I believe the 2 are in perfect agreement when properly exegeted and understood. I even chided Luther (not Calvin) for his view of James. You don’t remember? Do I have to dig that up too? Maybe I’ve been a bit too hard on Pat? ( Nah =] ) [quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Which is strange, because the truth is that even though you think man is no more a pile of dung…and sometimes a hill of shit covered in snow, God created us in his image and he did declare his creation very good ONLY after he created man in Genesis 1. >>>[/quote]Oh my Lord, LOL! That was before the fall Chris!!! Pretty quickly after which: “The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually”. Genesis 6:5 ESV. (had to reedit this whole post from my hurried and messed up one from this morning)
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Try this Chris. Was there anything whatsoever uncertain before creation? ANYTHING? Was it certain for instance which individuals by name and DNA would be saved and which would be damned before God created Adam and Eve? Yea or nay?[/quote]
I’m not Chris, but this is an interesting question. I don’t suppose this question can be answered. God didn’t have to create, He chose to. Could He have chosen not to? Sure. Did He ponder this? I don’t know. Can we know if anything was “uncertain” (I put it in quotes because I think it is a silly word for this concept you’re describing Tirib) to God at any point? No. The meat of this is does God make choices? And I think the answer is yes. Does that mean anything about God being “certain” or “uncertain”? No.
Tirib, what’s your real question, because this one was kinda wierd (and purely speculative I might add)?
[quote]jakerz96 wrote:<<< I’m not Chris, but this is an interesting question. I don’t suppose this question can be answered. God didn’t have to create, He chose to. Could He have chosen not to? Sure. Did He ponder this? I don’t know. Can we know if anything was “uncertain” (I put it in quotes because I think it is a silly word for this concept you’re describing Tirib) to God at any point? No. The meat of this is does God make choices? And I think the answer is yes. Does that mean anything about God being “certain” or “uncertain”? No.
Tirib, what’s your real question, because this one was kinda wierd (and purely speculative I might add)?[/quote]Hey Jake. What it is? Actually “certainty” or the lack thereof, is the hot topic as of late. Much to my delight I might add as it is this that is at the heart of ALL human knowledge. If there is no source of utterly comprehensive certainty then there is no source of one particle of knowledge at all as uncertain knowledge is an odoriferous oxymoron. Read the last few pages. Especially Elder Forlife’s masterful defense of agnostic uncertainty which everybody on this forum so far except me is trapped in (Ok, that was intentional lol).
The question is, and yes there is a very clear answer, is there ANYTHING WHATSOEVER that has ever existed independently of the ULTIMATE will of God and thereby betraying uncertainty in the mind of God Himself? Is there ANYTHING, any entity, any phenomena, any creaturely decision, any cosmic boo boo… ANYTHING… that presented itself to God as external to His eternally decreed plan thereby causing Him to come into possession of a previously unknown object of knowledge? In very short, does God know EVERYthing, actual and potential, past, present and future or not? Think before you answer because the ramifications are absolutely absolute on absolutely every absolute level.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I must be the only one of us who pays attention when others speak around here. You guys really think I don’t understand (as much as humanly possible) the eternal consciousness of God? Really? That’s systematic theology proper 101.[/quote]
Sorry for being presumptuous, but if you understand it then you understand that he doesn’t have to make every single choice in order to know know before the foundation of the world where we will end up.
Sorry for presumption, but I have no problem logically or mentally understanding the trinity…but okay.
He is certain, because he exists when it happens. He isn’t certain and then it happens.
Except Paul in his olive tree theology says that though they are Christians and saved, that they can be broken from the tree, though they are grafted onto the tree, just as the natural branches were broken off. So they were saved, but they lost their salvation. Or, are you going to argue with Paul?
Well, I suppose I understand it properly. Since it was the Catholic Church that first formulated it and it was taught to me by a great orthodoxy Catechist. Yes, that is right it is Catholic Doctrine.
Not to me, they are all theocentric to me. How do we serve God? By serving man. See, even when we do something for man, we are in fact loving God.
Explain that to me, I just posted scripture to give a fuller view of what was being said? Or do you forget that for a covenant to be formed by families have to be willing to enter it, again?
No, they don’t discredit God. They discredit your man-made traditions of sola fide, and double predestination, and matter being evil.
Jot n title? What in the world is that?
So you mean that you believe that faith alone is an abomination?
I’m glad, though both are heretics. But, what can we do?
I don’t see pile of dung or hill of dung anywhere in there. And, you’re taking a general statement with which you put no limitations. Noah himself was good until he fell into drunkenness and his son had sex with his wife.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< matter being evil. >>>[/quote]Where is this comin from? It’s insulting. I know EXACTLY what the gnostics were about Chris. I even studied Valentinus years ago (actually as an offshoot of studying the dualism of Christian Science ala Mary Baker Eddy and the word of faith movement) and read a bit of the Nag Hammaadi (spelling?) find from Egypt. The gospel of Thomas (I think it was Thomas) was fairly entertaining as well.
Find me one Calvinist who believes that matter is evil in itself. Just one. I will tell you unequivocally that I absolutely denounce and reject any view that affirms such a heresy as the mythological, mystical dualism of the gnostics. Matter IS NOT evil. Morality is simply inapplicable to matter as such. I don’t know where you got the just incredibly false notion that I or any of the reformers embraced such a terrible doctrine. That means I expect to never see such a monstrous accusation pointed at me again.
I’m tired Chris. I can’t address all this, but please put a bit more content to this part "He is certain, because he exists when it happens. He isn’t certain and then it happens. " How is He certain by merely being there?