“While precise figures do not exist for the perpetrators’ cultural backgrounds, Diana Nammi of the Iranian and Kurdish Women’s Rights Organisation says about two-thirds are Muslim. Yet they can also be Hindu, Sikh and even eastern European.”
Sorry Lixy, better check your stats.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
“While precise figures do not exist for the perpetrators’ cultural backgrounds, Diana Nammi of the Iranian and Kurdish Women’s Rights Organisation says about two-thirds are Muslim. Yet they can also be Hindu, Sikh and even eastern European.”
Sorry Lixy, better check your stats.[/quote]
Let’s unpack this article a bit:
so a Moslem is telling us that other ethnicities and religious backgrounds can perpetrate such things as well. Could she be padding the stats because she, herself, is a Moslem? But even if the stats are true, 1/6th of the earth’s population is committing 2/3rds of the honor killings? Isn’t that a bit disproportionate?
[quote]
The issue is acutely sensitive among British Muslims, already feeling embattled since the September 11, 2001, and July 7, 2005, terrorist attacks. Reported levels of domestic violence in British Asian communities are lower than the national average, according to The Guardian.
But for a small minority of families, the British judge Marilyn Mornington has said: “Honour rests with the chastity and obedience of women in the community. If that is transgressed then the woman must be punished, ultimately unto death.”[/quote]
Yes, the pooooor Moslems, so embattled, so misunderstood, so aggrieved, never causing their own problems, always attacked by everyone else. But this paragraph tells us a lot about the author. He’s drinking the PC kool-aid, and everything he says needs to be taken with a grain of salt for its “Religion of Peace” bias.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
“While precise figures do not exist for the perpetrators’ cultural backgrounds, Diana Nammi of the Iranian and Kurdish Women’s Rights Organisation says about two-thirds are Muslim. Yet they can also be Hindu, Sikh and even eastern European.”
Sorry Lixy, better check your stats.[/quote]
Cool! I love reading Murdoch publications.
But before we take this any farther, what exactly are you arguing here? Are we still talking about infanticide? Do you seriously believe it’s exclusive to Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs and eastern European?
[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Yes, the pooooor Moslems, so embattled, so misunderstood, so aggrieved, never causing their own problems, always attacked by everyone else. But this paragraph tells us a lot about the author.
He’s drinking the PC kool-aid, and everything he says needs to be taken with a grain of salt for its “Religion of Peace” bias.[/quote]
Don’t make the mistake of assuming that Islam is some sort of monolithic religion. There are great differences of interpretation within the religion itself.
Although that means the disproportion WRT honor killings becomes even more pronounced. And that in itself is pretty damn scary. And to top it off, they get their reasoning from a book that has clearly been corrupted.
[i]"My idea is that the Qur’an is a kind of cocktail of texts that were not all understood even at the time of Muhammad. Many of them may even be a hundred years older than Islam itself.
Even within the Islamic traditions there is a huge body of contradictory information, including a significant Christian substrate; one can derive a whole Islamic anti-history from them if one wants.
The Qur�??an claims for itself that it is �??mubeen,�?? or clear, but if you look at it, you will notice that every fifth sentence or so simply doesn�??t make sense. Many Muslims will tell you otherwise, of course, but the fact is that a fifth of the Qur�??anic text is just incomprehensible.
This is what has caused the traditional anxiety regarding translation. If the Qur�??an is not comprehensible, if it can�??t even be understood in Arabic, then it�??s not translatable into any language.
That is why Muslims are afraid. Since the Qur�??an claims repeatedly to be clear but is not�??there is an obvious and serious contradiction. Something else must be going on."[/i]
I very much doubt the authenticity of any copy of the Qur’an available today.
Critics argue that the Quranic verse 4:34 allows Muslim men to discipline their wives by striking them. (There is however confusion amongst translations of Quran with the original Arabic term “wadribuhunna” being translated as “to go away from them”, “beat”, “strike lightly” and “separate”.
Who knows what it originally said?
[quote]lixy wrote:
But before we take this any farther, what exactly are you arguing here? Are we still talking about infanticide? Do you seriously believe it’s exclusive to Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs and eastern European?[/quote]
I’m arguing it’s primarily Muslim.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
lixy wrote:
But before we take this any farther, what exactly are you arguing here? Are we still talking about infanticide? Do you seriously believe it’s exclusive to Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs and eastern European?
I’m arguing it’s primarily Muslim.[/quote]
What part of “exactly” didn’t you understand?
[quote]lixy wrote:
What part of “exactly” didn’t you understand?[/quote]
You’d better wash the sand out of your vagina Lixy.
Most of the honor killing perpetrated on this planet are done so in the name of Islam by people who refer to themselves as ‘Muslims’.
Clear enough?
[quote]Makavali wrote:
lixy wrote:
What part of “exactly” didn’t you understand?
You’d better wash the sand out of your vagina Lixy.
Most of the honor killing perpetrated on this planet are done so in the name of Islam by people who refer to themselves as ‘Muslims’.
Clear enough?[/quote]
I have no idea what a “honor killing” is, but I have a feeling you define it as murder committed by a Muslim.
Close enough?
And next time you jump in on a discussion, make sure you read what was actually written. Pookie talked about “infanticide” and that’s the bit I challenged.
But do tell: What’s an “honor killing” (isn’t that an oxymoron of some sort anyway)? Is it a murder committed in defense of one’s “honor”? If so, does it include people murdered over flipping the bird? Vendettas? People murdering their partners over promiscuity? Crimes over talking trash?
[quote]Makavali wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Yes, the pooooor Moslems, so embattled, so misunderstood, so aggrieved, never causing their own problems, always attacked by everyone else. But this paragraph tells us a lot about the author.
He’s drinking the PC kool-aid, and everything he says needs to be taken with a grain of salt for its “Religion of Peace” bias.
Don’t make the mistake of assuming that Islam is some sort of monolithic religion. There are great differences of interpretation within the religion itself.
Although that means the disproportion WRT honor killings becomes even more pronounced. And that in itself is pretty damn scary. And to top it off, they get their reasoning from a book that has clearly been corrupted.
[i]"My idea is that the Qur’an is a kind of cocktail of texts that were not all understood even at the time of Muhammad. Many of them may even be a hundred years older than Islam itself.
Even within the Islamic traditions there is a huge body of contradictory information, including a significant Christian substrate; one can derive a whole Islamic anti-history from them if one wants.
The Qur�??an claims for itself that it is �??mubeen,�?? or clear, but if you look at it, you will notice that every fifth sentence or so simply doesn�??t make sense. Many Muslims will tell you otherwise, of course, but the fact is that a fifth of the Qur�??anic text is just incomprehensible.
This is what has caused the traditional anxiety regarding translation. If the Qur�??an is not comprehensible, if it can�??t even be understood in Arabic, then it�??s not translatable into any language.
That is why Muslims are afraid. Since the Qur�??an claims repeatedly to be clear but is not�??there is an obvious and serious contradiction. Something else must be going on."[/i]
I very much doubt the authenticity of any copy of the Qur’an available today.
Critics argue that the Quranic verse 4:34 allows Muslim men to discipline their wives by striking them. (There is however confusion amongst translations of Quran with the original Arabic term “wadribuhunna” being translated as “to go away from them”, “beat”, “strike lightly” and “separate”.
Who knows what it originally said?[/quote]
I agree with the infidel you quoted above, obviously. For a realy hoot, google “Uthmanic Recension” and see what you find. Muslims don’t really maintain a textual criticism and the Qur’an is ultimately incomprehensible without the Hadith, which came later.
[quote]lixy wrote:
Makavali wrote:
lixy wrote:
What part of “exactly” didn’t you understand?
You’d better wash the sand out of your vagina Lixy.
Most of the honor killing perpetrated on this planet are done so in the name of Islam by people who refer to themselves as ‘Muslims’.
Clear enough?
I have no idea what a “honor killing” is, but I have a feeling you define it as murder committed by a Muslim.
Close enough?
And next time you jump in on a discussion, make sure you read what was actually written. Pookie talked about “infanticide” and that’s the bit I challenged.
But do tell: What’s an “honor killing” (isn’t that an oxymoron of some sort anyway)? Is it a murder committed in defense of one’s “honor”? If so, does it include people murdered over flipping the bird? Vendettas? People murdering their partners over promiscuity? Crimes over talking trash?[/quote]
You’re pretty stupid when you want to be.
[quote]lixy wrote:
I have no idea what a “honor killing” is, but I have a feeling you define it as murder committed by a Muslim.
Close enough?[/quote]
Oh boy.
An honor killing is generally the murder of a member of a family by the family, when they (and maybe the wider community) believe her to have brought dishonor upon them.
A woman (because it is usually women) can be targeted commonly for: refusing an arranged marriage, being the victim of a sexual assault, seeking a divorce (even from an abusive husband) or committing adultery or fornication.
These killings result from the perception that defense of the “family honor” justifies killing a woman whose behavior “dishonors” her family.
Does that define it?
And as to your question about why I brought it up, I was responding to this:
[quote]I seem to recall you checking out my honor killing thread, where I demonstrated that honor killing is linked to Islam. Was something possessing your body then and you have no recollection of it?
Hindus lead the way in honor killings? I’ve never heard of a single instance of a Hindu honor killing.[/quote]
Sharif Kanaana, professor of anthropology at Birzeit University states that honor killing is:
A complicated issue that cuts deep into the history of Arab society… What the men of the family, clan, or tribe seek control of in a patrilineal society is reproductive power. Women for the tribe were considered a factory for making men. The honor killing is not a means to control sexual power or behavior. What’s behind it is the issue of fertility, or reproductive power.
Of course, that’s not to say it’s strictly an Arab thing.
[quote]lixy wrote:
Makavali wrote:
lixy wrote:
What part of “exactly” didn’t you understand?
You’d better wash the sand out of your vagina Lixy.
Most of the honor killing perpetrated on this planet are done so in the name of Islam by people who refer to themselves as ‘Muslims’.
Clear enough?
I have no idea what a “honor killing” is, but I have a feeling you define it as murder committed by a Muslim.
Close enough?
And next time you jump in on a discussion, make sure you read what was actually written. Pookie talked about “infanticide” and that’s the bit I challenged.
But do tell: What’s an “honor killing” (isn’t that an oxymoron of some sort anyway)? Is it a murder committed in defense of one’s “honor”? If so, does it include people murdered over flipping the bird? Vendettas? People murdering their partners over promiscuity? Crimes over talking trash?[/quote]
Emancipate yourself from mental slavery,Lixy… (with apologies to Bob).
Just do a search on ‘Honour Killings’ on either site and that should clear the question riiiight up.
[quote]lixy wrote:
Cool! I love reading Murdoch publications.
[/quote]
What’s the difference between these and the pinko anti-US propaganda rags you read?
Ever stop to think maybe the people who write the crap you read have political agendas themselves?
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Ever stop to think maybe the people who write the crap you read have political agendas themselves?[/quote]
No way, that’s like… impossible!
[quote]Makavali wrote:
lixy wrote:
I have no idea what a “honor killing” is, but I have a feeling you define it as murder committed by a Muslim.
Close enough?
Oh boy.
An honor killing is generally the murder of a member of a family by the family, when they (and maybe the wider community) believe her to have brought dishonor upon them.
A woman (because it is usually women) can be targeted commonly for: refusing an arranged marriage, being the victim of a sexual assault, seeking a divorce (even from an abusive husband) or committing adultery or fornication.
These killings result from the perception that defense of the “family honor” justifies killing a woman whose behavior “dishonors” her family.
Does that define it? [/quote]
Nothing justifies killing a person, unless it’s in immediate self-defense.
Now, is these thing codified? Could a person actually invoke defense of the “family honor” to avoid prosecution a la Napoleonic code that was revoked in the 1970s? To the best of my knowledge, it’s not (though it would only mildly surprise me coming from Wahabism).
And since we’re on the subject, how do you actually know it was commited “in the name of Islam”? Do the perpetrators actually say killing female family members is part of Islam?
[quote]And as to your question about why I brought it up, I was responding to this:
I seem to recall you checking out my honor killing thread, where I demonstrated that honor killing is linked to Islam. Was something possessing your body then and you have no recollection of it?
Hindus lead the way in honor killings? I’ve never heard of a single instance of a Hindu honor killing.[/quote]
I didn’t write any of that.
You called me by name in your citation of the Murdoch paper earlier. I would appreciate it if you quote me next time.
[quote]Neuromancer wrote:
Emancipate yourself from mental slavery,Lixy… (with apologies to Bob).
Just do a search on ‘Honour Killings’ on either site and that should clear the question riiiight up.[/quote]
How long shall they kill our prophets, while we stand aside and look?
Anyway, from the horse’s mouth: “Honor crimes are not specific to any religion, nor are they limited to any one region of the world.”
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2001/04/06/global268.htm
And you know something is amiss when even Wahabis like the Pakistanis say the following: “The government of Pakistan vigorously condemns the practice of so-called honour killings. Such acts do not find a place in our religion or law.”
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/ASA33/010/2002/en/dom-ASA330102002en.html
So what on earth do these crimes have to do with Islam?
[quote]Makavali wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
Ever stop to think maybe the people who write the crap you read have political agendas themselves?
No way, that’s like… impossible![/quote]
Watch this.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6737097743434902428
And tell me if you have a single documented instance of the BBC’s management doing anything remotely similar.
Lixy, are you trying to change the subject again?