Who Pays Income Taxes?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
121

[quote]Marmadogg wrote:
Smitty88 wrote:
summa wrote:
If the US only made the largest corporations (S&P 500) pay the right amount of tax, all your personal taxes could be cut. There are too many companies registered offshore. This would kill the stock market of course.
Be thankful you don’t pay what I do in Canada. It makes me want to puke.

You can’t back that up with any facts.
It is total unadulterated BULLSHIT.

There are a tiny amount of significant US corporations which are titled as “off shore.” The overwhelming majority of US corporations pay a significant amount of taxes.

Now apologize to the board for spreading left wing propaganda.

The poster may be a left wingnut but he is right.

The majority of Fortune 500 companies do not pay a fraction of taxes from revenue generated on domestic sales.

[/quote]

Please back that up with some facts. US Treasury statistics would be best.

122

[quote]Marmadogg wrote:
Smitty88 wrote:
orion:

Cool, you like to type posts.

But you still did not back up your original assertion:

The super rich don`t pay nothing, only around 15-20 % or so if they are clever…

And it looks like you’re not going to.

Orion is a left wingnut for sure but wealthy people that live off of investments only pay capital gains tax and do not pay state income tax as they usually claim their primary residence in a state that does not have personal income tax.

John Kerry’s wife is a perfect example of this. The GOP was insinuating that Theresa was cheating on her taxes because she paid less than 20% on her income. The irony was she did not draw any personal income but only had investment income that is only subject to capital gains.

Logic escapes all the wingnut from both edges of the spectrum.[/quote]

First of all he did not state that the only tax that “the rich” pay are capital gains taxes.

He stated that they were “clever” and because of this they escaped paying the proper amount of taxes.

Secondly, If someone is living off of their investments which are taxed at 15% to 20% how is that in any way cheating the system?

It’s not.

In fact, one could make an argumetn that they are being cheated. They earned the money, it’s their money and in reality they are being double taxed on it!

123

[quote]orion wrote:
Smitty88 wrote:

This is what you said: The super rich don`t pay nothing, only around 15-20 % or so if they are clever…

While you have danced quite well around the issue, you have not PROVEN your original assertion. In fact, you have not even come close.

But I have PROVEN that they have the possibility do avoid paying taxes[/quote]

Yes, they do. Just like the waitress who has the “possibility” of not reporting her tip money as income. Why are you not complaining about her? In fact, there are far more “average Joe’s” NOT paying their taxes. The underground economy is alive and well and it functions primarily from regular people who somehow forget to pay taxes on ALL of the money that they have earned.

Can I prove this? No. No more than you can prove that the wealthy dont’ pay what the are supposed to.

Right.

I believe that everyone pays only what they have to. However, to make a claim that the wealthy pay less than the average person is simply wrong.

124

Skystud,

I have found that most of the people who whine about the rich not paying enough do so because they are jealous and have never made any real money.

Okay, as far as the flat tax goes, I think it needs to be developed. It’s only a dream right now.

125

And, I think most whiners are going to have to come to grips with this fact:

[quote]2004 tax statistics:

Top 1% ($328-k)-----------Paid 36.89%[/quote]

If you don’t think that the top 1% paying 37% of ALL taxes is enough, then what would you suggest? Maybe 80% or 90%? How about the top 1% pay the entire 100% ?

Would that finally make some of you cry babies happy?

lol

126

[quote]Smitty88 wrote:
Marmadogg wrote:
Smitty88 wrote:
summa wrote:
If the US only made the largest corporations (S&P 500) pay the right amount of tax, all your personal taxes could be cut. There are too many companies registered offshore. This would kill the stock market of course.
Be thankful you don’t pay what I do in Canada. It makes me want to puke.

You can’t back that up with any facts.
It is total unadulterated BULLSHIT.

There are a tiny amount of significant US corporations which are titled as “off shore.” The overwhelming majority of US corporations pay a significant amount of taxes.

Now apologize to the board for spreading left wing propaganda.

The poster may be a left wingnut but he is right.

The majority of Fortune 500 companies do not pay a fraction of taxes from revenue generated on domestic sales.

Please back that up with some facts. US Treasury statistics would be best.[/quote]

First of all, the GAO tracks these things…not the IRS. You strike me a wingnut that is too lazy to read.

I follow the markets at a finacial services firm and we laugh about corporate taxes all the time.

I hope Business Week magazine will satisfy you:

“The federal income tax rate for corporations is 35%, but few pay that much. Over the past decade, companies across the U.S. have aggressively pursued tax-reduction strategies like Marriott’s. Many have achieved the Holy Grail of corporate finance: steadily growing profits coupled with a dramatically shrinking tax burden. To reach that goal, they are taking extraordinary steps – everything from making tax-favored investments to shifting profits to low-tax jurisdictions overseas to reincorporating in Bermuda or other tax havens.”

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_13/b3826058.htm

127

[quote]Smitty88 wrote:
And, I think most whiners are going to have to come to grips with this fact:

2004 tax statistics:

Top 1% ($328-k)-----------Paid 36.89%

If you don’t think that the top 1% paying 37% of ALL taxes is enough, then what would you suggest? Maybe 80% or 90%? How about the top 1% pay the entire 100% ?

Would that finally make some of you cry babies happy?

lol [/quote]
Listen, jerk. I am very happy with MY pay. I make more than enough, believe me. And I don’t want anyone else to pay more taxes just because they make more than me.
What I’m agianst is people who wine about how much tax they pay while not asking the basic question of why?
Just because you pay more taxes than the guy next to you, doesn’t make you a better person.
Instead of whining about it, why not try and change it through advocating a flat tax. There is a reason Sarbanes-Oxley exists. It is to make the CEOs liable for their company’s figures, not lying about them so they can get their incentives.
Do we agree on this?

If not, why?

128

[quote]Smitty88 wrote:
And, I think most whiners are going to have to come to grips with this fact:

2004 tax statistics:

Top 1% ($328-k)-----------Paid 36.89%

If you don’t think that the top 1% paying 37% of ALL taxes is enough, then what would you suggest? Maybe 80% or 90%? How about the top 1% pay the entire 100% ?

Would that finally make some of you cry babies happy?

lol [/quote]

A flat tax of 12% would be perfect. There are no loopholes or deductions. If you make it you pay taxes on it. This includes corporations and consumers.

129

I don’t think it is fair either. But the tax system is complicated for a reason. That’s why weasels like rainjack are needed to find the loopholes. Yeah, the capital gains tax sucks. Yeah, I don’t like it. But that’s the way it is. Do something about it instead of whining.

Why do you think we don’t have a flat tax?
Could it possibly be that the wealthy corporations don’t want it? I’m willing to bet that’s true. We will see come the next presidential election if tax reform is seriously discussed. But something is telling me that nothing will be done. Would that suprise you? If not, Why?

130

[quote]Smitty88 wrote:
orion wrote:
Smitty88 wrote:

This is what you said: The super rich don`t pay nothing, only around 15-20 % or so if they are clever…

While you have danced quite well around the issue, you have not PROVEN your original assertion. In fact, you have not even come close.

But I have PROVEN that they have the possibility do avoid paying taxes

Yes, they do. Just like the waitress who has the “possibility” of not reporting her tip money as income. Why are you not complaining about her? In fact, there are far more “average Joe’s” NOT paying their taxes. The underground economy is alive and well and it functions primarily from regular people who somehow forget to pay taxes on ALL of the money that they have earned.

Can I prove this? No. No more than you can prove that the wealthy dont’ pay what the are supposed to.

and yes, it is kind of hard to find a statistic for taxes NOT paid.

Right.

If you want to believe that the rich pay more taxes than they absolutely have to, even though there are armies of tax lawyers and accountants preventing just that,please, be my guest.

I believe that everyone pays only what they have to. However, to make a claim that the wealthy pay less than the average person is simply wrong.

[/quote]

Apparently you don`t get what I am trying to say.

I said that the “rich” pay around 15-20 % if they are clever. I explained how they do it. I never mentioned “cheating” , “unfair” or any other moral judgement.

The judging part is entirely in your head and has nothing to do with what I wrote. I also told you that on issues like that you are probably on my left, you just refuse to believe it.

Then I made the claim that they pay so little while the middle class pays so much, percentage wise !!!, is that capital can very easily be transferred to investment friendlier regions while the Joe Average cannot do the same.

Now the one part you could argue with me about is if the amount the “rich” pay is fair or not…

That is a question however I am not very concerned about. Those greedy fuckers lay their hands on anything they can get and they can?t get to rich peoples money (yet).

I want to become very rich, which is why I try to understand how the game is played.

So, to sum it up:

If they are clever they only pay around 15-20 &% taxes. Marmadogg posted an example.

That is totally legal, I posted a link (twice) how you could do the same in the US, given you had a few million dollars at your disposal.

To the “rich” pay more than the average person? Yes, because a smaller share of much more money still can still be more in absolute terms.

131
  1. I am a capitalist.
  2. I want to be very rich.
  3. I know companies are doing whatever they can to make management rich. They do not care about you or I.
  4. I love the financial world. That is whey I do what I do. I just do not have my head up my ass.
    Consider the following:

“If we had nothing else to do, the accounting investigations alone could keep us busy for the next five or 10 years?”

  • Richard Walker, SEC enforcement chief, CFO.com, 7/6/01

"Let’s make pro forma earnings be what earnings should have been in the first place. "

  • Jack Ciesielski, The Analyst’s Accounting Observer, Jan. 18, 2002

“Consider that the average tech company… is a capital-intensive, highly cyclical, optionsaccounting, CEO-enriching, non-dividend-paying, short shelf-life entity, with its profits usually to be sought from declining product prices, yet to be sold at price-earnings multiples in the upper twenties, thirties and far, far beyond.”

“I believe the country faces a critical crossroad and that the decisions that are made or not made within the next 10 years or so will have a profound effect on the future of our country, our children and our grandchildren. The problem gets bigger every day, and the tidal wave gets closer every day.”

  • David Walker, comptroller general Aug. 2005

“The fate of the world economy is now totally dependent on the growth of the U.S. economy, which is dependent on the stock market, whose growth is dependent on about 50 stocks, half of which have never reported any earnings.”

  • former Federal Reserve Chairman Paul Volcker, September 1999

“The aggressive mindset of the world’s economic powerhouse may need to be replaced with the humility appropriate for the world’s biggest debtor nation.”

  • Berry Riley, Financial Times, April 2001

“Too much debt, geopolitical risk and several bubbles have created a very unstable environment which can turn any minute. More than any point in the past 20 or 30 years, there’s potential for a reversal.”

  • Bill Gross, Financial Times, June 2004

Thinking things can improve is not a left wing agenda. If things don’t improve the financial situation for everyone except the rich will deteriorate. The US has to find money to finance it’s debt and social obligations. When a CEO makes $100 million for only being a figurehead or better yet for being fired, that is a good place to look.

132

[quote]Marmadogg wrote:

You strike me a wingnut that is too lazy to read. [/quote]

And you strike me as someone who doesn’t know his ass from first base. When you actually earn a few bucks you might just catch on. Until then …

133

[quote]Skystud wrote:
Smitty88 wrote:
And, I think most whiners are going to have to come to grips with this fact:

2004 tax statistics:

Top 1% ($328-k)-----------Paid 36.89%

If you don’t think that the top 1% paying 37% of ALL taxes is enough, then what would you suggest? Maybe 80% or 90%? How about the top 1% pay the entire 100% ?

Would that finally make some of you cry babies happy?

lol
Listen, jerk. I am very happy with MY pay. I make more than enough, believe me. And I don’t want anyone else to pay more taxes just because they make more than me.
What I’m agianst is people who wine about how much tax they pay while not asking the basic question of why?
[/quote]

LOL…“wine.” Yea I bet you make a ton of money with a vocabulary like that.

Wahahaha…

134

[quote]orion wrote:
Smitty88 wrote:
orion wrote:
Smitty88 wrote:

This is what you said: The super rich don`t pay nothing, only around 15-20 % or so if they are clever…

While you have danced quite well around the issue, you have not PROVEN your original assertion. In fact, you have not even come close.

But I have PROVEN that they have the possibility do avoid paying taxes

Yes, they do. Just like the waitress who has the “possibility” of not reporting her tip money as income. Why are you not complaining about her? In fact, there are far more “average Joe’s” NOT paying their taxes. The underground economy is alive and well and it functions primarily from regular people who somehow forget to pay taxes on ALL of the money that they have earned.

Can I prove this? No. No more than you can prove that the wealthy dont’ pay what the are supposed to.

and yes, it is kind of hard to find a statistic for taxes NOT paid.

Right.

If you want to believe that the rich pay more taxes than they absolutely have to, even though there are armies of tax lawyers and accountants preventing just that,please, be my guest.

I believe that everyone pays only what they have to. However, to make a claim that the wealthy pay less than the average person is simply wrong.

Apparently you don`t get what I am trying to say.

I said that the “rich” pay around 15-20 % if they are clever. I explained how they do it. I never mentioned “cheating” , “unfair” or any other moral judgement.

The judging part is entirely in your head and has nothing to do with what I wrote. I also told you that on issues like that you are probably on my left, you just refuse to believe it.

Then I made the claim that they pay so little while the middle class pays so much, percentage wise !!!, is that capital can very easily be transferred to investment friendlier regions while the Joe Average cannot do the same.

Now the one part you could argue with me about is if the amount the “rich” pay is fair or not…

That is a question however I am not very concerned about. Those greedy fuckers lay their hands on anything they can get and they can?t get to rich peoples money (yet).

I want to become very rich, which is why I try to understand how the game is played.

So, to sum it up:

If they are clever they only pay around 15-20 &% taxes. Marmadogg posted an example.

That is totally legal, I posted a link (twice) how you could do the same in the US, given you had a few million dollars at your disposal.

To the “rich” pay more than the average person? Yes, because a smaller share of much more money still can still be more in absolute terms. [/quote]

So your a “rich guy wannabe?”

Okay, less time on the message boards and more time creating wealth.

Now run along.

135

[quote]Smitty88 wrote:

So your a “rich guy wannabe?”

Okay, less time on the message boards and more time creating wealth.

Now run along.
[/quote]

Darling, if we compared our incomes, you would weep.

I make my money primarily by thinking and taking risks, I have more than enough time to think, read, post on websites, anything that has a chance of making me a little bit smarter…

However, work hard, continue to believe you have all the answers and one day you will be in the one percent that earn the highest wages and pay the highest income taxes too…

It really is not THAT hard to be a beast of burden and work your ass off for other people…

You never ran a business right? Does not have to be a big one, self employed would be enough…

Somehow I just can tell you capitalist wannabe…

edit: If that was not condescending enough, rest assured, that this is only the result of my insufficient command of the English language.

I do hope however that my general emotional state was revealed to you in no uncertain terms…

136

[quote]Skystud wrote:
Good for you rainjack now we see your true colors. Your part of the problem, not the solution, and you come on here and belittle everyone when they say the tax system is not fair because of loopholes and yet you are one of the people behind the unfairness. ha ha ha ah[/quote]

Quote me ever belittling anyone that said the tax system was unfair. I said that the tax cuts went to those that paid them. People in the lower 50%of the income brackets paid little to no taxes and are therefore not going to get as much benefit as those that paid in large amounts of money in FIT.

You should really read my posting history on here a little better before attacking me for defending the current tax system.

Your ignorance is laughable.

Now run back to your pathetic middle management job and wait in your cubicle for break time.

137

[quote]orion wrote:

I make my money primarily by thinking and taking risks, I have more than enough time to think, read, post on websites, anything that has a chance of making me a little bit smarter…
[/quote]

Then what in the hell are you doing in this brain - drain of a thread?

Long live rich people. Long live free capitalism.

138

[quote]rainjack wrote:
orion wrote:

I make my money primarily by thinking and taking risks, I have more than enough time to think, read, post on websites, anything that has a chance of making me a little bit smarter…

Then what in the hell are you doing in this brain - drain of a thread?

Long live rich people. Long live free capitalism. [/quote]

You are right, but he annoys me…

He is kind of a socialist believing to be a capitalist while critizicing real capitalism…

And he is neither amusing, clever or generous enough to admitt he misjudged a post, or poster…

oh well, it is midnight and I am bored…

139

[quote]orion wrote:
Smitty88 wrote:

So your a “rich guy wannabe?”

Okay, less time on the message boards and more time creating wealth.

Now run along.

Darling, if we compared our incomes, you would weep.[/quote]

Yes, I would probably laugh until I had tears in my eyes.

Seriously, trying to pretend that you make more than me, or anyone you don’t know is just stupid.

Internet nonsense.

140

[quote]

oh well, it is midnight and I am bored…[/quote]

Yea, most rich people that I know are usually up at midnight being bored. They never have to get up early and perform or anything. All they do is hang out at night on the Internet and sleep late.

:slight_smile: