Who is Jesus?

Cockney_Blue · April 20, 2009, 5:45pm

[quote]pat wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
pat wrote:
There is no way to prove or disprove any of these ancient people lived. Prove Aristotle live, prove Pythagoras lived, prove Julius Caesar lived, prove Khufu lived, prove Cleopatra lived…You can’t when you break it down, all you have is second hand information based on second hand sources which puts us at a minimum f 4 degrees of separation from actually being able to know. So if you don’t believe Jesus lived then don’t. You can’t prove anybody lived really.

Right. All we have are stories from the past.

I believe Jesus was real. The truthfulness of him being the son of god is what’s worth debating, in my eyes.

Correct, who he was can be debated, but whether or not he existed is pointless. There is more written about Jesus than any other person ever. As anything thing can be the fact that he lived is as historically solid as anything can be.[/quote]

Utter utter bullshit.

The only reason that you could possibly say that there is more written about him than anyone else is that the Bible is the most widely distributed book.

There is more written about the Easter bunny than Obama therefore the Easter Bunny is real and Obama is a figment of your imagination.

pat · April 20, 2009, 6:13pm

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
pat wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
pat wrote:
There is no way to prove or disprove any of these ancient people lived. Prove Aristotle live, prove Pythagoras lived, prove Julius Caesar lived, prove Khufu lived, prove Cleopatra lived…You can’t when you break it down, all you have is second hand information based on second hand sources which puts us at a minimum f 4 degrees of separation from actually being able to know. So if you don’t believe Jesus lived then don’t. You can’t prove anybody lived really.

Right. All we have are stories from the past.

I believe Jesus was real. The truthfulness of him being the son of god is what’s worth debating, in my eyes.

Correct, who he was can be debated, but whether or not he existed is pointless. There is more written about Jesus than any other person ever. As anything thing can be the fact that he lived is as historically solid as anything can be.

Utter utter bullshit.

The only reason that you could possibly say that there is more written about him than anyone else is that the Bible is the most widely distributed book.

There is more written about the Easter bunny than Obama therefore the Easter Bunny is real and Obama is a figment of your imagination.[/quote]

I seriously doubt there are more books about the easter bunny than obama. There are thousands of books written about Jesus…There is two millenniums worth of history there. Lot’s and lots of people wrote books about him. I didn’t say that proves he lived, I am saying that you cannot say anybody else lived with any more certainty than you can Jesus. There’s lot’s of books about George Washington, but we have no first hand account of his existence and hence cannot prove he is anything thing more than a grand American fairy tale. Such is the way with historic figures, we have to take on faith that our historical facts written by other people who likely were not present either, are telling the truth.

pat · April 20, 2009, 6:15pm

[quote]belligerent wrote:
I see no reason to believe that Jesus is anything other than a mythological character. The fact that my mom believes in him is pretty compelling evidence against his existence, her being the stupidest person I’ve ever seen.[/quote]

You are insulting your own mother? Whoa…

pat · April 20, 2009, 2:17pm

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Everything that was written about Jesus was written after his death. His executioners don’t even have records of his execution.[/quote]

Have you checked all the written records of all the executioners in Jerusalem? Wow, you must have put in some time…Are you sure you have all of them?

pat · April 20, 2009, 6:19pm

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
It would seem strange for a guy who never lived to be mentioned so many times by so many people over the ages.

What? There is no primary evidence, probably no secondary evidence and the tertiary evidence that we have is conflicting.

Jesus (Joshua) just means saviour and Christos (Christ) just means annointed.

Jesus Christ is therefore not actually a name but a reference. There were literally thousands of people given the title Jesus and the title Christ. Which one are you referring to?[/quote]

Really? Who else was called the Christ?

Cockney_Blue · April 20, 2009, 9:19pm

[quote]pat wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
pat wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
pat wrote:
There is no way to prove or disprove any of these ancient people lived. Prove Aristotle live, prove Pythagoras lived, prove Julius Caesar lived, prove Khufu lived, prove Cleopatra lived…You can’t when you break it down, all you have is second hand information based on second hand sources which puts us at a minimum f 4 degrees of separation from actually being able to know. So if you don’t believe Jesus lived then don’t. You can’t prove anybody lived really.

Right. All we have are stories from the past.

I believe Jesus was real. The truthfulness of him being the son of god is what’s worth debating, in my eyes.

Correct, who he was can be debated, but whether or not he existed is pointless. There is more written about Jesus than any other person ever. As anything thing can be the fact that he lived is as historically solid as anything can be.

Utter utter bullshit.

The only reason that you could possibly say that there is more written about him than anyone else is that the Bible is the most widely distributed book.

There is more written about the Easter bunny than Obama therefore the Easter Bunny is real and Obama is a figment of your imagination.

I seriously doubt there are more books about the easter bunny than obama. There are thousands of books written about Jesus…There is two millenniums worth of history there. Lot’s and lots of people wrote books about him. I didn’t say that proves he lived, I am saying that you cannot say anybody else lived with any more certainty than you can Jesus. There’s lot’s of books about George Washington, but we have no first hand account of his existence and hence cannot prove he is anything thing more than a grand American fairy tale. Such is the way with historic figures, we have to take on faith that our historical facts written by other people who likely were not present either, are telling the truth.[/quote]

Do you know what a first hand account is? It’s someone who was there at the time writing about it.

Here is a link to a website with copies of literally hundreds of documents that George Washington actually signed

http://gwpapers.virginia.edu/index.html

Here is a portrait of him, painted whilst he was still alive.

Compare that to our mate Chuy for whom we have a few passing references written by people who are writing not about facts but about the beliefs of a group of people over a hundred years after his alleged life.

If you can’t see the difference then your faith truly is blind as well as stupid.

anon31651765 · April 20, 2009, 10:26pm

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Everything that was written about Jesus was written after his death. His executioners don’t even have records of his execution.[/quote]

That may be true, but there are Roman historians who documented the spread of Christianity, and did attribute the killing of Jesus as being “at the hands of our pontious pilate”.

I can’t recall the name, I will see if I can find it for you. But I think there’s at least as much in favor of him existing as there is against, and that lends me to believe that it’s based off of truth in someway.

pat · April 20, 2009, 10:51pm

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
pat wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
pat wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
pat wrote:
There is no way to prove or disprove any of these ancient people lived. Prove Aristotle live, prove Pythagoras lived, prove Julius Caesar lived, prove Khufu lived, prove Cleopatra lived…You can’t when you break it down, all you have is second hand information based on second hand sources which puts us at a minimum f 4 degrees of separation from actually being able to know. So if you don’t believe Jesus lived then don’t. You can’t prove anybody lived really.

Right. All we have are stories from the past.

I believe Jesus was real. The truthfulness of him being the son of god is what’s worth debating, in my eyes.

Correct, who he was can be debated, but whether or not he existed is pointless. There is more written about Jesus than any other person ever. As anything thing can be the fact that he lived is as historically solid as anything can be.

Utter utter bullshit.

The only reason that you could possibly say that there is more written about him than anyone else is that the Bible is the most widely distributed book.

There is more written about the Easter bunny than Obama therefore the Easter Bunny is real and Obama is a figment of your imagination.

I seriously doubt there are more books about the easter bunny than obama. There are thousands of books written about Jesus…There is two millenniums worth of history there. Lot’s and lots of people wrote books about him. I didn’t say that proves he lived, I am saying that you cannot say anybody else lived with any more certainty than you can Jesus. There’s lot’s of books about George Washington, but we have no first hand account of his existence and hence cannot prove he is anything thing more than a grand American fairy tale. Such is the way with historic figures, we have to take on faith that our historical facts written by other people who likely were not present either, are telling the truth.

Do you know what a first hand account is? It’s someone who was there at the time writing about it.

Here is a link to a website with copies of literally hundreds of documents that George Washington actually signed

http://gwpapers.virginia.edu/index.html

Here is a portrait of him, painted whilst he was still alive.

Compare that to our mate Chuy for whom we have a few passing references written by people who are writing not about facts but about the beliefs of a group of people over a hundred years after his alleged life.

If you can’t see the difference then your faith truly is blind as well as stupid.[/quote]

You can’t prove he ever lived. Did you meet him? How can you prove that the author simply didn’t make it up? Perhaps he was an instrument of british conspiracy that failed.

Peter was with Jesus, he wrote about him. He too, would be a first hand account would he not, or is he made up too? Do you not see the slippery slope you are on? You are simply taking it on faith that these historians, authors, etc. are not making everything up. To say that fact that Jesus was alive and all the stuff written about him, and all the interactions are a fantasy you have to apply the same scrutiny to all historical events and people to which you are not personally privy. You can’t say something about one thing but then claim the rules don’t apply to things you think are true. The rules apply to everything. You can’t make it up as you go along, there is no integrity in that.

Bring me any historical fact and I can say it’s made up and you can’t prove it isn’t.

thebigbus · April 21, 2009, 1:10am

[quote]pat wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
pat wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
pat wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
pat wrote:
There is no way to prove or disprove any of these ancient people lived. Prove Aristotle live, prove Pythagoras lived, prove Julius Caesar lived, prove Khufu lived, prove Cleopatra lived…You can’t when you break it down, all you have is second hand information based on second hand sources which puts us at a minimum f 4 degrees of separation from actually being able to know. So if you don’t believe Jesus lived then don’t. You can’t prove anybody lived really.

Right. All we have are stories from the past.

I believe Jesus was real. The truthfulness of him being the son of god is what’s worth debating, in my eyes.

Correct, who he was can be debated, but whether or not he existed is pointless. There is more written about Jesus than any other person ever. As anything thing can be the fact that he lived is as historically solid as anything can be.

Utter utter bullshit.

The only reason that you could possibly say that there is more written about him than anyone else is that the Bible is the most widely distributed book.

There is more written about the Easter bunny than Obama therefore the Easter Bunny is real and Obama is a figment of your imagination.

I seriously doubt there are more books about the easter bunny than obama. There are thousands of books written about Jesus…There is two millenniums worth of history there. Lot’s and lots of people wrote books about him. I didn’t say that proves he lived, I am saying that you cannot say anybody else lived with any more certainty than you can Jesus. There’s lot’s of books about George Washington, but we have no first hand account of his existence and hence cannot prove he is anything thing more than a grand American fairy tale. Such is the way with historic figures, we have to take on faith that our historical facts written by other people who likely were not present either, are telling the truth.

Do you know what a first hand account is? It’s someone who was there at the time writing about it.

Here is a link to a website with copies of literally hundreds of documents that George Washington actually signed

http://gwpapers.virginia.edu/index.html

Here is a portrait of him, painted whilst he was still alive.

Compare that to our mate Chuy for whom we have a few passing references written by people who are writing not about facts but about the beliefs of a group of people over a hundred years after his alleged life.

If you can’t see the difference then your faith truly is blind as well as stupid.

You can’t prove he ever lived. Did you meet him? How can you prove that the author simply didn’t make it up? Perhaps he was an instrument of british conspiracy that failed.

Peter was with Jesus, he wrote about him. He too, would be a first hand account would he not, or is he made up too? Do you not see the slippery slope you are on? You are simply taking it on faith that these historians, authors, etc. are not making everything up. To say that fact that Jesus was alive and all the stuff written about him, and all the interactions are a fantasy you have to apply the same scrutiny to all historical events and people to which you are not personally privy. You can’t say something about one thing but then claim the rules don’t apply to things you think are true. The rules apply to everything. You can’t make it up as you go along, there is no integrity in that.

Bring me any historical fact and I can say it’s made up and you can’t prove it isn’t.[/quote]

You and I think WAYYY too much alike, Pat.

Ever read any Gordon H. Clark?

Cockney_Blue · April 21, 2009, 3:48am

[quote]pat wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
pat wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
pat wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
pat wrote:
There is no way to prove or disprove any of these ancient people lived. Prove Aristotle live, prove Pythagoras lived, prove Julius Caesar lived, prove Khufu lived, prove Cleopatra lived…You can’t when you break it down, all you have is second hand information based on second hand sources which puts us at a minimum f 4 degrees of separation from actually being able to know. So if you don’t believe Jesus lived then don’t. You can’t prove anybody lived really.

Right. All we have are stories from the past.

I believe Jesus was real. The truthfulness of him being the son of god is what’s worth debating, in my eyes.

Correct, who he was can be debated, but whether or not he existed is pointless. There is more written about Jesus than any other person ever. As anything thing can be the fact that he lived is as historically solid as anything can be.

Utter utter bullshit.

The only reason that you could possibly say that there is more written about him than anyone else is that the Bible is the most widely distributed book.

There is more written about the Easter bunny than Obama therefore the Easter Bunny is real and Obama is a figment of your imagination.

I seriously doubt there are more books about the easter bunny than obama. There are thousands of books written about Jesus…There is two millenniums worth of history there. Lot’s and lots of people wrote books about him. I didn’t say that proves he lived, I am saying that you cannot say anybody else lived with any more certainty than you can Jesus. There’s lot’s of books about George Washington, but we have no first hand account of his existence and hence cannot prove he is anything thing more than a grand American fairy tale. Such is the way with historic figures, we have to take on faith that our historical facts written by other people who likely were not present either, are telling the truth.

Do you know what a first hand account is? It’s someone who was there at the time writing about it.

Here is a link to a website with copies of literally hundreds of documents that George Washington actually signed

http://gwpapers.virginia.edu/index.html

Here is a portrait of him, painted whilst he was still alive.

Compare that to our mate Chuy for whom we have a few passing references written by people who are writing not about facts but about the beliefs of a group of people over a hundred years after his alleged life.

If you can’t see the difference then your faith truly is blind as well as stupid.

You can’t prove he ever lived. Did you meet him? How can you prove that the author simply didn’t make it up? Perhaps he was an instrument of british conspiracy that failed.

Peter was with Jesus, he wrote about him. He too, would be a first hand account would he not, or is he made up too? Do you not see the slippery slope you are on? You are simply taking it on faith that these historians, authors, etc. are not making everything up. To say that fact that Jesus was alive and all the stuff written about him, and all the interactions are a fantasy you have to apply the same scrutiny to all historical events and people to which you are not personally privy. You can’t say something about one thing but then claim the rules don’t apply to things you think are true. The rules apply to everything. You can’t make it up as you go along, there is no integrity in that.

Bring me any historical fact and I can say it’s made up and you can’t prove it isn’t.[/quote]

Are you really that dense or is it that you are so blinded by your faith?

Do you really think that the document known as The Gospel of Peter was written by Peter? It was written after the suposed timescale of the life of Peter so how was it a first hand witness account? It varies considerably from Mathew and Luke though it is likely that it was also based on the traditions of the Q gospel that Mathew and Luke were copied from.

Actually if you want to quote the gospel of Peter then it works against your claim that Jesus really existed as it was docetistic.

IrishSteel · April 21, 2009, 5:27am

OK - Historical records outside of Scripture mentioning Christ

Cornelius Tacitus - Governor of Asia
Suetonius - Roman Historian
Pliny the Younger
Lucian of Samosata
The Letter from Mara Bar-Serapion
Julis Africanus
Thallus
Phlegon
Hegesippus

Those are just a few - plus over 5,000 manuscripts of the NT Scriptures alone, many (over 800) within 60 years of Christ’s death.

How many manuscripts of Plato? 7 - the oldest more than 1200 years after his death.

Aristotle? only 5 and none less than 1400 years after his death

Herodotus? - only 8 and all 1300 years after the original

Euripedes? - 9 and all 1300 years after the original.

Homer’s Iliad, the most renowned book of ancient Greece, is the second best-preserved literary work of all antiquity, with 643 copies of manuscript support discovered to date. In those copies, there are 764 disputed lines of text, as compared to 40 lines in all the New Testament manuscripts. 8 In fact, many people are unaware that there are no surviving manuscripts of any of William Shakespeare’s 37 plays (written in the 1600’s), and scholars have been forced to fill some gaps in his works. 9 This pales in textual comparison with the over 5,600 copies and fragments of the New Testament in the original Greek that, together, assure us that nothing’s been lost. In fact, all of the New Testament except eleven minor verses can be reconstructed outside the Bible from the writings of the early church leaders in the second and third centuries AD.

ANYWAY - the point is -there is more evidence that Christ lived than any great historical figure of that era.

Whether or not he was the promised Messiah, the Annointed Christ? - well that is for each individual to decide, but stop wasting time disputing what has been definitively proven already.

Diety or not - he lived. You have to decide what to do with his message and his claims.

That’s why it is called Faith.

Headhunter · April 21, 2009, 8:45am

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
He’s a completely mythical character.

What say you?[/quote]

The biblical Jesus is an attempt by powerful people to (1) hold up supreme altruism as a moral standard and (2) cash in on guilt when humanity doesn’t live up to the altruistic standard.

Cashing in on guilt is a clear pathway to power.

Headhunter · April 21, 2009, 8:53am

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Everything that was written about Jesus was written after his death. His executioners don’t even have records of his execution.

That may be true, but there are Roman historians who documented the spread of Christianity, and did attribute the killing of Jesus as being “at the hands of our pontious pilate”.

I can’t recall the name, I will see if I can find it for you. But I think there’s at least as much in favor of him existing as there is against, and that lends me to believe that it’s based off of truth in someway. [/quote]

Livy.

katzenjammer · April 21, 2009, 11:50am

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
OK - Historical records outside of Scripture mentioning Christ

Cornelius Tacitus - Governor of Asia
Suetonius - Roman Historian
Pliny the Younger
Lucian of Samosata
The Letter from Mara Bar-Serapion
Julis Africanus
Thallus
Phlegon
Hegesippus

Those are just a few - plus over 5,000 manuscripts of the NT Scriptures alone, many (over 800) within 60 years of Christ’s death.

How many manuscripts of Plato? 7 - the oldest more than 1200 years after his death.

Aristotle? only 5 and none less than 1400 years after his death

Herodotus? - only 8 and all 1300 years after the original

Euripedes? - 9 and all 1300 years after the original.

Homer’s Iliad, the most renowned book of ancient Greece, is the second best-preserved literary work of all antiquity, with 643 copies of manuscript support discovered to date. In those copies, there are 764 disputed lines of text, as compared to 40 lines in all the New Testament manuscripts. 8 In fact, many people are unaware that there are no surviving manuscripts of any of William Shakespeare’s 37 plays (written in the 1600’s), and scholars have been forced to fill some gaps in his works. 9 This pales in textual comparison with the over 5,600 copies and fragments of the New Testament in the original Greek that, together, assure us that nothing’s been lost. In fact, all of the New Testament except eleven minor verses can be reconstructed outside the Bible from the writings of the early church leaders in the second and third centuries AD.

ANYWAY - the point is -there is more evidence that Christ lived than any great historical figure of that era.

Whether or not he was the promised Messiah, the Annointed Christ? - well that is for each individual to decide, but stop wasting time disputing what has been definitively proven already.

Diety or not - he lived. You have to decide what to do with his message and his claims.

That’s why it is called Faith.
[/quote]

Very nice post!

pat · April 21, 2009, 12:11pm

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
pat wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
pat wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
pat wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
pat wrote:
There is no way to prove or disprove any of these ancient people lived. Prove Aristotle live, prove Pythagoras lived, prove Julius Caesar lived, prove Khufu lived, prove Cleopatra lived…You can’t when you break it down, all you have is second hand information based on second hand sources which puts us at a minimum f 4 degrees of separation from actually being able to know. So if you don’t believe Jesus lived then don’t. You can’t prove anybody lived really.