He did exist but he probably was a pathological liar with mild schizophrenia. Bring it!
[quote]pat wrote:
There is no way to prove or disprove any of these ancient people lived. Prove Aristotle live, prove Pythagoras lived, prove Julius Caesar lived, prove Khufu lived, prove Cleopatra lived…You can’t when you break it down, all you have is second hand information based on second hand sources which puts us at a minimum f 4 degrees of separation from actually being able to know. So if you don’t believe Jesus lived then don’t. You can’t prove anybody lived really.[/quote]
Pascal’s Wager - even though his existence cannot be confirmed, a person should “wager” as though he exists, because there is everything to gain, and nothing to lose. Hence, deathbed conversions.
[quote]pat wrote:
forlife wrote:
pat wrote:
That fictitious character changed the entire course of history, even the calender we all used. Even the atheists took Sunday off. That’s one potent fiction.
You do realize that the calendar we all use is extensively based on a whole pantheon of gods, right?
January: Named after Janus, the God of doors and gates
March: Named after Mars, the God of war
May: Named after Maia, the Goddess of growth of plants
June: from Junius, Latin for the goddess Juno
Tuesday: Named for the day of Tiw, or Tiu, a Teutonic (Anglo-Saxon) deity
Wednesday: The day of Woden is named for the chief Norse God
Thursday: The day of Thor is named for the Norse God
Friday: The Norse goddess Frigg, or Frigga, names that day
Saturday: Translated from the Latin dies Saturni, or the day of Saturn. In Roman mythology, Saturn was the planetary God of agriculture.
Long live Janus, Mars, and Thor!
What year is it?[/quote]
It’s the year of the ox.
[quote]Brent Moody wrote:
The Bible puts the life and death of Jesus occurring during the reign of the Roman emperor Nero. [/quote]
It was during the reigns of Augustus and Tiberius.
Didn’t Josephus write about Jesus Christ?
http://www.theistic-evolution.com/josephus.html
“Flavius Josephus (c. A.D. 37-100) was born to an aristocratic Jewish family, served as a priest, and later became the commander of Jewish forces in Galilee following the revolt against Rome that began A.D. 66. Captured by the Romans, Josephus spent his later life in Rome under the patronage of the Roman emperors where he composed his history of the Jewish people and his account of the Jewish war that led to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in A.D. 70.”
And here’s the paragraph he wrote:
- (63) Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. (64)
And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross [2], those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day [3], as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named for him, are not extinct at this day.
Here is the commentary:
There is some debate among scholars over the authenticity of paragraph 3. Most scholars believe that the majority of the paragraph is authentic, with a few crucial sentences inserted later by Christian scribes. Some scholars think that the entire paragraph is a later Christian insertion.
A few scholars believe that the entire passage is indeed authentic, and that Josephus himself wrote it down in the form seen here, without later revision.
[quote]Brent Moody wrote:
What are the chances of that happening to a guy that never even existed?[/quote]
Pretty good. Santa Clause?
[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
You guys may care to check out Reviews of Best Structured Settlement Companies - The God Movie if you find the question intriguing[/quote]
I watched this last night. Its ok since the guy wrote, directed, and produced it all by himself–but he does bounce around a lot.
The spread of Christianity segment is of particular interest to me.
Chirst Existed (eye roll)
Historical writers mentioning Jesus:
Following is a list of extra biblical (outside of the Bible) references of biblical events, places, etc. The list is not exhaustive but is very representative of what is available.
Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?, a Jewish historian) mentions John the Baptist and Herod - Antiquities, Book 18, ch. 5, par. 2
“Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod’s army came from God, and that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against John, that was called the Baptist: for Herod slew him, who was a good man, and commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, both as to righteousness towards one another, and piety towards God, and so to come to baptism; for that the washing [with water] would be acceptable to him, if they made use of it, not in order to the putting away [or the remission] of some sins [only], but for the purification of the body; supposing still that the soul was thoroughly purified beforehand by righteousness.”
Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?) mentions Jesus - Antiquities, Book 18, ch. 3, par. 3.
Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, (9) those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; (10) as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.
There is debate among scholars as to the authenticity of this quote since it is so favorable to Jesus. For more information on this, please see Regarding the quotes from the historian Josephus about Jesus
Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?) mentions James, the brother of Jesus - Antiquities, Book 20, ch. 9.
“Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done.”
Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?) mentions Ananias the High Priest who was mentioned in Acts 23:2
Now as soon as Albinus was come to the city of Jerusalem, he used all his endeavors and care that the country might be kept in peace, and this by destroying many of the Sicarii. But as for the high priest, Ananias (25) he increased in glory every day, and this to a great degree, and had obtained the favor and esteem of the citizens in a signal manner; for he was a great hoarder up of money
Acts 23:2, “And the high priest Ananias commanded those standing beside him to strike him [Paul] on the mouth.”
Tacitus (A.D. c.55-A.D. c.117, Roman historian) mentions “christus” who is Jesus - Annals 15.44
“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.”
Ref. from http://classics.mit.edu/...s/annals.mb.txt
Thallus Circa AD 52, eclipse of the sun. Thallus wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to his own time. His writings are only found as citations by others. Julius Africanus who wrote about AD 221 mentioned Thallus’ account of an eclipse of the sun.
“On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.”
Is this a reference to the eclipse at the crucifixion? Luke 23:44-45, “And it was now about the sixth hour, and darkness fell over the whole land until the ninth hour, 45 the sun being obscured; and the veil of the temple was torn in two.”
The oddity is that Jesus’ crucifixion occurred at the Passover which was a full moon. It is not possible for a solar eclipse to occur at a full moon. Note that Julius Africanus draws the conclusion that Thallus’ mentioning of the eclipse was describing the one at Jesus’ crucifixion. It may not have been.
Julius Africanus, Extant Writings, XVIII in the Ante?Nicene Fathers, ed. by Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1973), vol. VI, p. 130. as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.
Pliny the Younger mentioned Christ. Pliny was governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. Pliny wrote ten books. The tenth around AD 112.
“They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food?but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.”
Pliny, Letters, transl. by William Melmoth, rev. by W.M.L. Hutchinson (Cambridge: Harvard Univ. Press, 1935), vol. II, X:96 as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.
The Talmud
“On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, “He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.” But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of the Passover!”
Gal. 3:13, “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree.”
Luke 22:1, “Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which is called the Passover, was approaching. 2And the chief priests and the scribes were seeking how they might put Him to death; for they were afraid of the people.”
This quotation was taken from the reading in The Babylonian Talmud, transl. by I. Epstein (London: Soncino, 1935), vol. III, Sanhedrin 43a, p. 281 as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.
Lucian (circa 120-after 180) mentions Jesus. Greek writer and rhetorician.
“The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day?the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.”
Lucian, The Death of Peregrine, 11?13, in The Works of Lucian of Samosata, transl. by H.W. Fowler and F.G. Fowler, 4 vols. (Oxford: Clarendon, 1949), vol. 4, as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.
Though Lucian opposed Christianity, he acknowledges Jesus, that Jesus was crucified, that Christians worship him, and that this was done by faith.
The historical Jesus is debated by very, very few. You can find people that still believe the world is flat so just because you can find a few in a google search doesn?t mean that they hold much credit, regardless the above listing should answer your question.
[quote]pat wrote:
There is no way to prove or disprove any of these ancient people lived. Prove Aristotle live, prove Pythagoras lived, prove Julius Caesar lived, prove Khufu lived, prove Cleopatra lived…You can’t when you break it down, all you have is second hand information based on second hand sources which puts us at a minimum f 4 degrees of separation from actually being able to know. So if you don’t believe Jesus lived then don’t. You can’t prove anybody lived really.[/quote]
Right. All we have are stories from the past.
I believe Jesus was real. The truthfulness of him being the son of god is what’s worth debating, in my eyes.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Chirst Existed (eye roll)
Historical writers mentioning Jesus:
Following is a list of extra biblical (outside of the Bible) references of biblical events, places, etc. The list is not exhaustive but is very representative of what is available.
[/quote]
Nice paper trail.
It would seem strange for a guy who never lived to be mentioned so many times by so many people over the ages.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Brent Moody wrote:
What are the chances of that happening to a guy that never even existed?
Pretty good. Santa Clause?[/quote]
Are you implying Santa isn’t real? That’s not cool man.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Brent Moody wrote:
What are the chances of that happening to a guy that never even existed?
Pretty good. Santa Clause?[/quote]
Are you implying Santa isn’t real? That’s not cool man.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Brent Moody wrote:
What are the chances of that happening to a guy that never even existed?
Pretty good. Santa Clause?[/quote]
Are you implying Santa isn’t real? That’s not cool man.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Brent Moody wrote:
What are the chances of that happening to a guy that never even existed?
Pretty good. Santa Clause?
Are you implying Santa isn’t real? That’s not cool man.[/quote]
There actually was a St. Nicholas…Whether he rides a flying slay and distributes presents is debatable, but the man existed.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
pat wrote:
There is no way to prove or disprove any of these ancient people lived. Prove Aristotle live, prove Pythagoras lived, prove Julius Caesar lived, prove Khufu lived, prove Cleopatra lived…You can’t when you break it down, all you have is second hand information based on second hand sources which puts us at a minimum f 4 degrees of separation from actually being able to know. So if you don’t believe Jesus lived then don’t. You can’t prove anybody lived really.
Right. All we have are stories from the past.
I believe Jesus was real. The truthfulness of him being the son of god is what’s worth debating, in my eyes. [/quote]
Correct, who he was can be debated, but whether or not he existed is pointless. There is more written about Jesus than any other person ever. As anything thing can be the fact that he lived is as historically solid as anything can be.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
pat wrote:
There is no way to prove or disprove any of these ancient people lived. Prove Aristotle live, prove Pythagoras lived, prove Julius Caesar lived, prove Khufu lived, prove Cleopatra lived…You can’t when you break it down, all you have is second hand information based on second hand sources which puts us at a minimum f 4 degrees of separation from actually being able to know. So if you don’t believe Jesus lived then don’t. You can’t prove anybody lived really.
Right. All we have are stories from the past.
I believe Jesus was real. The truthfulness of him being the son of god is what’s worth debating, in my eyes. [/quote]
Correct, who he was can be debated, but whether or not he existed is pointless. There is more written about Jesus than any other person ever. As anything thing can be the fact that he lived is as historically solid as anything can be.
Everything that was written about Jesus was written after his death. His executioners don’t even have records of his execution.
I see no reason to believe that Jesus is anything other than a mythological character. The fact that my mom believes in him is pretty compelling evidence against his existence, her being the stupidest person I’ve ever seen.
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Chirst Existed (eye roll)
Historical writers mentioning Jesus:
Following is a list of extra biblical (outside of the Bible) references of biblical events, places, etc. The list is not exhaustive but is very representative of what is available.
Nice paper trail.[/quote]
Not really, they are all writing after the event. The most detailed writings have dubious origin. And for the most part, they talk about the beliefs of the Christians, not actual facts that happened. I know that Christians believe that Jesus Christ existed, that is why there is Christianity so saying that early Christians believed it doesn’t tell us anything more than we already know which is that several groups who were trying to push their own religious and political agendas got joined together in a collection of books by someone else who was trying to push a political agenda. Now, a couple of thousand years ago these writings are still being used to control the political agenda in a large chunk of the world.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
It would seem strange for a guy who never lived to be mentioned so many times by so many people over the ages.[/quote]
What? There is no primary evidence, probably no secondary evidence and the tertiary evidence that we have is conflicting.
Jesus (Joshua) just means saviour and Christos (Christ) just means annointed.
Jesus Christ is therefore not actually a name but a reference. There were literally thousands of people given the title Jesus and the title Christ. Which one are you referring to?