[quote]rainjack wrote:
For the highly educated person you present yourself as - using quotes like this and thinking they are proving a point is really not helping your image. [/quote]
I’m really concerned about my image. Thanks for the heads up.
Probably.
[quote]pookie wrote:
I disagree that all men agree about right and wrong. Just look at the debates on the death penalty, abortion, euthanasia, etc. Anything involving life and death will generally polarize men and you’ll have two sides that are both convinced they are the “good” one. Tought issues aren’t in black in white, but wide swaths of grey.
Also, I don’t buy the argument that without a “Law Giver” (wasn’t that the name of Judge Dredd’s gun?) we’d be lost and without any moral guidance. You can use other yardsticks to determine how ethical an action is. Does it harm more people than it helps? If everyone did the same, would society suffer? If someone did the same to you, would you mind? There are many, many tests that may be applied from a secular, humanist point of view to allow someone to judge the “rightness” of an action.
As for evolving a conscience, it appears to me to be favorable for a specie to generally act decently towards members of its own specie. That leaves more candidates available for reproduction and more chances that your genes will live on and propagate (ie, your kids won’t get killed.) A specie of sociopathic killers wouldn’t be able to compete as well and would eventually burn itself out; in other words, it’d go extinct.
[/quote]
I’d be interested in Disc Hoss’s response to this, if he’s still around…
So, DH, any thoughts?
[quote]mars_mapper wrote:
A minimalist that subscribes to Occam’s Razor will conclude that a creator is not required for the universe?s existence as probability and thermodynamics sufficiently explains its State.
[/quote]
These things are helpful in describing the universe’s state - though still not sufficient - but they are not helpful at all in describing its origin.
The creed of minimalism is that everything should be as simple as possible, but no simpler. What you are advocating is spirituality based on reductionism, not minimalism.
[quote]pookie wrote:
Probably.[/quote]
Kudos to your new found sense of humor. I’m sure there are those that find it knee-slappingly hilarious.
But please - if you are going to attempt to prove me wrong - the least you could do is make more than a sophmoric attempt at it.
no one should believe in any thing that they have not experienced firsthand.
if it isn’t true for you, it isn’t true.
those religious people who believe in things they have not experienced first hand are kidding themselves - and think they can kid their god as well.
it has been said that the true bride of christ is the man who continues to admit in the face of his peers that he still does not know for sure. he has seen no proof. he isn’t certain of god.
honesty is the path. honesty is the way.
that’s what makes powerlifting and strength sports so beautiful. there is an honesty present in the simplicity. i lift this weight - i work - i get the results.
[quote]endgamer711 wrote:
All disassembly of the universe into parts and pieces is a trick of the mind. Does this make it holographic? I don’t know.
[/quote]
Sounds Kantian to me… is that an accurate assessment?
I’m just intrigued by your statement about “literal miracles.” If a change in one’s state of mind were really capable of creating a true miracle (in the biblical sense), this would be something fascinating.
[quote]Nephorm, on the other hand, should believe however he prefers.
[/quote]
I’m not trying to attack your beliefs, I’m trying to understand them.
Sorry, I will have to admit I don’t know from Kant. If so, either it was parallel invention or he got it from Gautama Buddha and his intellectual descendants, especially the founders (unknown) of Advaita Vedanta, who preceded the written codification of their creed ca. 800 AD (by Sankara).
I actually believe that the Sermon on the Mount was given and was heard and understood by a large crowd of people, who were deeply affected, and that this in itself, in that time and place, constituted a true miracle by any definition of the word.
But I’m sensible of what you’re really asking. And the answer is yes, I’m willing to say that good old-fashioned here-comes-god miracles are possible. I’m not clearly convinced in any specific instance. However.
I worked for years next to and with somebody I always thought was pretty level headed and who was certainly well educated. Then one day at lunch, after carefully surfacing the topic, this person mentions that he saw certain things that did not actually exist, had an experience that did not actually happen, while in the presence of a certain guru. A little while later he made all orderly arrangements to guit his job and relocate to upstate NY so he could spend more time at this dude’s ashram.
When you get right down to it, people see things that never happened all the time. Only usually not quite so dramatic as in this case. Suggestibility doesn’t begin to account for it.
Heisenberg says we only get to know the half of it, and this is correct. Momentum or position, you pays your money and you takes your choice. We only ever get half the story. But on top of this, human perception itself is so flakey. We may as well admit it, however much we find out, we can never know shit from shinola about what’s really under the hood.
“Reality is an illusion” and “miracles are possible” in the end are just two sides of the same coin. QM leads us directly here. What’s an objectivist to do?
[quote]endgamer711 wrote:
“Reality is an illusion” and “miracles are possible” in the end are just two sides of the same coin. QM leads us directly here. What’s an objectivist to do?[/quote]
How about not throw up our hands in an intellectual surrender and say “Some invisible cosmic superhero musta did it.”
Just a suggestion for those objectivists out there. Remember, when we get enough pieces of the puzzle, we can solve for X. We don’t need to see everything at once.
[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
Just a suggestion for those objectivists out there. Remember, when we get enough pieces of the puzzle, we can solve for X. We don’t need to see everything at once.[/quote]
Sorry, little human. You want to be able to say with absolute assurance you know what can and cannot happen next? You need to see everything at once. Otherwise you are stuck with “well, it never happened before!”
In other words, to absolutely rule out the possibility of true miracles, you would have to have god-like omniscience.
I said I like science as a way of getting closer to the underlying reality, I am hardly throwing my hands up in the air. But we have already seen there are limits to the enterprise.
And if you think otherwise, you are definitely enmeshed in an illusion.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
pookie wrote:
Probably.
Kudos to your new found sense of humor. I’m sure there are those that find it knee-slappingly hilarious.[/quote]
We don’t all have your talent of getting laughs when we’re being serious.
The least I can do is much less than that.
[quote]Adamsson wrote:
i think this one is kind of fun… 
[/quote]
There`s an ounce of truth in that too.
I think that most of the anger and offence that comes out of this is the idea of membership and it’s reward. It is very suspicious of any membership to have scare tactics involved. Burning for all eternity does not sound like the treatment that would be dished out by such an unfathomably forgiving and loving being. Shit, I am only human, and I can see my way to being more loving and forgiving than that. I am sure that the God you all speek of knows that the humans that he created would not all be covinced of his existance, and would not not just say fuck-um. Or does the Devil do it and God just is not powerful enough to bail them out of the eternal flames and torment.
Another thing that I do not understand, is if someone truly believes like many people say they do why do they sin so frequently. If I truly new what was next I could not help but be more in line with what the rules were. It sounds like a good money maker. Preach to people that the goal is to be perfect like Christ but then tell them they are human and hence to weak to not sin. The solution is to keep your membership at church so you can repent and keep the collection plate full.
[quote]DeepSouth wrote:
There are hundreds of prophecies throughout the old testament which Jesus fulfilled. The odds of everyone being fulfilled are a mathematical impossibility. Many historic copies of the old testament verifying these. Through non-biblical text Jesus has been verified and this includes his crucifixion on the cross.
Much of the New Testament is letters from Paul. Just do some research on him…his education level, persecution of Christians, etc. He became Christianity’s biggest proponent. Think about that.
Spreading Christianity is people wanting others to experience the same gifts they have received.
I have heard Gods voice…and it is unmistakeable. I have experienced the fruits of becoming a Christian firsthand, and they are unmistakeable. I know of others experience, those who tried everything and searched everything, and their miraculously changed lives and behavior that has lasted from Psychotic behavior, violence, drug addiction, and lives of the worst kind to an instantaneous release…and they converse with God everyday…
If you SEEK the truth, you will find it. Sometimes you have to sort through the BullShit to get there, unfortunately. [/quote]
I know this is late but if he doesn’t fulfill just one then he’s a false prophet according to the Old Testament. You should do the research and study all the prophesy that the Messiah is supposed to fulfill. Keep in mind that Jesus was a jew.
[quote]Buttered_Corn wrote:
I know this is late but if he doesn’t fulfill just one then he’s a false prophet according to the Old Testament. You should do the research and study all the prophesy that the Messiah is supposed to fulfill. Keep in mind that Jesus was a jew.[/quote]
oh man, you started this one back up…duck and cover.
I believe in Creationism. This is what happened:
In the beginning, Chaos, an amorphous, gaping void encompassing the entire universe, and surrounded by an unending stream of water ruled by the god Oceanus, was the domain of a goddess named Eurynome, which means “far-ruling” or “wide-wandering”.
She was the Goddess of All Things, and desired to make order out of the Chaos. By coupling with a huge and powerful snake, Ophion, or as some legends say, coupling with the North Wind, she gave birth to Eros, god of Love, also known as Protagonus, the “firstborn”.
Eurynome separated the sky from the sea by dancing on the waves of Oceanus. In this manner, she created great lands upon which she might wander, a veritable universe, populating it with exotic creatures such as nymphs, Furies, and Charites as well as with countless beasts and monsters.
Also born out of Chaos were Gaia, called Earth, or Mother Earth, and Uranus, the embodiment of the Sky and the Heavens, as well as Tartarus, god of the sunless and terrible region beneath Gaia, the Earth.
Even though it sounds silly, the more you study biology and science the more you will come to understand the truth about our creation. I have communciated on a personal level with Oceanus and Eurynome–they exist and they are real. I know this with all my heart. I do not envy those of you who refuse to accept their reality. Upon death, you will realize the errors of your ways.
[quote]Buttered_Corn wrote:
DeepSouth wrote:
There are hundreds of prophecies throughout the old testament which Jesus fulfilled. The odds of everyone being fulfilled are a mathematical impossibility. Many historic copies of the old testament verifying these. Through non-biblical text Jesus has been verified and this includes his crucifixion on the cross.
Much of the New Testament is letters from Paul. Just do some research on him…his education level, persecution of Christians, etc. He became Christianity’s biggest proponent. Think about that.
Spreading Christianity is people wanting others to experience the same gifts they have received.
I have heard Gods voice…and it is unmistakeable. I have experienced the fruits of becoming a Christian firsthand, and they are unmistakeable. I know of others experience, those who tried everything and searched everything, and their miraculously changed lives and behavior that has lasted from Psychotic behavior, violence, drug addiction, and lives of the worst kind to an instantaneous release…and they converse with God everyday…
If you SEEK the truth, you will find it. Sometimes you have to sort through the BullShit to get there, unfortunately.
I know this is late but if he doesn’t fulfill just one then he’s a false prophet according to the Old Testament. You should do the research and study all the prophesy that the Messiah is supposed to fulfill. Keep in mind that Jesus was a jew.[/quote]
In light of all of the recent topics here concerning creation, etc…I am doing some of my own research, seeking the truth, looking for answers. First & foremost for me, I have no doubt in God…maybe all are just not called, otherwise these discussions would not be necessary. Its my understanding also that God wants you to choose to know him, not be forced…nothing different than a healthy father-son relationship in physical. Spiritual versus physical I “think” is at the heart of most of these discussions…and that is the real missing link…the connection between the two. These are attempts to explain physical forces at work, not spritual ones, that in essence work the same way (my opinion).
The information provided on Mithras, Dyonisus, etc…is what has got me studying, attmepting to get at the heart of it all.
I realize the different religions, their different interpretation, etc. and the attempts to explain God, heaven. So far I have found most interesting the writings of Plato, who believed in God & heaven, and was able to convince those around him of such…and his observations on how God communicated to him…interesting stuff. I have also been reading “Lost Scriptures” and will then read “Lost Christianities”…looking for the oldest, authentic texts I can find near Jesus time (Pauls writings and Gospel of Mark the only ones truly close to his time). I figure if the Apostles truly knew Jesus, then their writings would be the most true as well, and they would have concensus on certain things. So far I haven’t found what I’m looking for, exactly…differing happenings and thoughts depending on which Gospel you read (James versus Peter versus Paul) I also printed out a lot of information and presented it to a Preacher about a month ago asking for him or some “top level” person to explain historical contradicting evidence…he has yet to get back to me. When, if, he does…I will present his thoughts or evidence against.
The bible mainly preaches to turn away from sin, repent, and give to the poor & those in need. That is always my attempt. I don’t necessarily give to the church…and the only reason I ever attend any church is for my wife and grandmother’s sake…since they enjoy it so much. I think much of what preachers say and preach is downright stupid, myself…and feel I waste my time.
As far as the unfullfilled prophecies (I have read Jewish viewpoints that in my opinion they contradict themselves often), I am not in knowledge of all fullfilled or any unfullfilled. Maybe you could give me a hint in the right direction of where you attempt to point me.
Whats intersting to me is my Dad told me once that the Bible is just an instruction manual on life, a picture of the family…and that if there were no more bible and man was alone in the desert…he could write it all over again.
Thanks
To follow up the thoughts on my previous post…something I am pondering, as a Christian.
If the Apostles were baptized in the Holy Spirit, and via that route were able to do Gods work and perform miracles as needed to Glorify God, as was seemingly done in the old testament (Exodus of Hebrews from Egyptian Slavery…(whats the evidence on that?)) and thus since Christ, we all are able to receive the Holy Spirit…then where are the undeniable miracles that would show the Glory of God…?
I recently had a cousin with gall bladder stones that was “healed” when a religious nut lady insisted on praying for him in a Wal-Mart…Jesus wanted her to pray for him. He didn’t know this lady at all and eventually just let her do it to get it over with. Well ,as she walked away glorifying and praising Jesus…his pain went away. He wasn’t sure what to make of it, but his gall bladder stones went away. I’m not sure what to make of it and it didn’t happen to me…but take it for what its worth.
I do believe that Jesus died for my sins.
I believe
