Who Believes?

[Professor_X]

[quote]The Red Monk wrote:
The explanation (and the point) Professor is that those earlier people associated with that belief would heartily disagree with you on whether or not that belief disagrees with their actions. You are speaking from the point of view of today’s Christianity-- it is the height of arrogance and ignorance to assume that today’s is superior to yesterday’s, especially when plenty of the men of yesterday spent more time than you ever will trying to understand the Bible and its messages.[/quote]

Why do you think the men of yesterday are so gifted? It isn’t in the bible. No matter how much credit you try to give MEN, none of those actions are in the bible. That is all there is to it. Men are faulted. They always have been and always will be. Why do you put more faith in men on this subject? The Bible doesn’t contain anything about following what “wise men” of the past have done. That is irrelevant no matter how you try to twist it.

There are people who believed that slavery was a “God given right”. The moment you can point out even one perfect man currently on this planet without fault is the moment you will have a point about what men should be followed religiously disregarding what is written.

[orion]

The reason those people thought that slavery was a god given right was that the bible has a lot to say about how to treat slaves, where to buy them, who to enslave etc.

I am assuming that someone that writes a book on good accounting has no problem with acounting per se, so I think writing about how to treat slaves pretty much means one is not entirely against slavery?

Answers to the Bible Slavery Quiz

[hspder]

[quote]fatsensei wrote:
It seems that there have been alot of discussions on evolution/creation lately and it also seems that the majority of T-Nation leans towards evolution.

I’m not interested in a debate of who’s right or wrong I’m just interested in who believes that God created us and his son Jesus came and died on the cross for our sins so that if we believe in Him and trust in Him for salvation that you will go to heaven.

Just curious.
[/quote]

No (I don’t believe). My faith is that there is no God at all – I’m an atheist.

[hspder]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Agreed. For some reason, this seems to really piss off some evolutionists who want to hold to the idea that anyone who does believe in God is an idiot who can not compare to their massive intellect.[/quote]

Should my ears be burning now? Even with my massive intellect I really don’t know if they should…

Now seriously, I know, some people – including many of my colleagues – are guilty of that. And I’ll admit some of my comments will come across like that.

(I’m sure rainjack is just laughing his ass off right now)

But actually a lot of my closest friends (including my wife… which is most definitely my best friend) and the people I respect the most and looked up to are/were Christians and the ones that know me can testify I don’t do that in real life. I actually had a marriage ceremony in a Christian Church, as my wife wished. I respect their faith, even though it puzzles me… I even went to church several (other) times with them – however, eventually they gave up almost completely; not on inviting me, but on going themselves. They just got tired of all the hubris, which has been getting worse and worse over time.

[B_Rock]

[quote]DeepSouth wrote:
fatsensei wrote:
It seems that there have been alot of discussions on evolution/creation lately and it also seems that the majority of T-Nation leans towards evolution.

I’m not interested in a debate of who’s right or wrong I’m just interested in who believes that God created us and his son Jesus came and died on the cross for our sins so that if we believe in Him and trust in Him for salvation that you will go to heaven.

Just curious.

FatSensei

I believe that, absolutely.

Evolution and Creation are not contradictions in my opinion. Additionally, for me personally the evidence in support for Christianity is overwhelming.
[/quote]

EVIDENCE, HA!!! I’ve got one word that for you …DINOSAURS???

[hspder]

[quote]orion wrote:
The reason those people thought that slavery was a god given right was that the bible has a lot to say about how to treat slaves, where to buy them, who to enslave etc.[/quote]

To be fair, it is my understanding that Christians are supposed to believe in the NEW Testament, while what you are describing is Old Testament lore.

Now, having said that, one of the things that I find most puzzling about a lot of Christians – both in the past and the present – is that they seem to rely waaaaay too much on the Old Testament, using the excuse that if the New Testament doesn’t mention explicitly it’s wrong, it’s still true.

Others develop some kind of reading comprehension dysfunction, were they swear by the “eye for an eye” philosophy of the Old Testament, but refuse to “give the other cheek” philosophy of the New Testament.

Fortunately some Christians do realize that the whole nature of the New Testament implicitly makes things like slavery very, very wrong, but I wonder what the % is there.

[rainjack]

[quote]hspder wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Agreed. For some reason, this seems to really piss off some evolutionists who want to hold to the idea that anyone who does believe in God is an idiot who can not compare to their massive intellect.

Should my ears be burning now? Even with my massive intellect I really don’t know if they should…

Now seriously, I know, some people – including many of my colleagues – are guilty of that. And I’ll admit some of my comments will come across like that.

(I’m sure rainjack is just laughing his ass off right now)

But actually a lot of my closest friends (including my wife… which is most definitely my best friend) and the people I respect the most and looked up to are/were Christians and the ones that know me can testify I don’t do that in real life. I actually had a marriage ceremony in a Christian Church, as my wife wished. I respect their faith, even though it puzzles me… I even went to church several (other) times with them – however, eventually they gave up almost completely; not on inviting me, but on going themselves. They just got tired of all the hubris, which has been getting worse and worse over time.
[/quote]

I’m trying really hard to think of a witty retort…I have nothing.

Seriously though, look at some of the posts on this thread. You see intolerance on both sides.

This debate is unwinnable by anyone. Yet we have over 300 posts and the originator of this thread only asked a yes or no question.

I have my faith. It is mine. It is real. I can’t convince you (corporate you) that it is real anymore than you can convince me that I believe in fairy tales.

Yet simply because I and millions like me share a common faith, it enrages others. I’m not sure why. On the flip side - there are those of faith that are enraged at those that claim there is no God. I am equally perplexed at that as well.

And if you hide and watch - there are those with such vitriolic hatred of “religion” (for lack of a better word)that they think that because ProfX believes in God that he is somehow intelleuctually inferior to those “enlightened” (also for lasck of a better word) to the fact that there is no God.

Where does that get us?

[The_Red_Monk]

You infuriatingly continue to ignore my central question— why should your interpretation of Scripture be privileged over anyone else’s? How does the Bible provide for these completely different interpretations within what is essentially SUPPOSED to be the same moral system? Specifically, what makes you enough of an authority on what the Bible says that you can denounce other human beings, smarter and more educated than yourself, who would completely disagree with your reading of the Bible? The difference in years is immaterial.

[Professor_X]

[quote]B-Rock wrote:
DeepSouth wrote:
fatsensei wrote:
It seems that there have been alot of discussions on evolution/creation lately and it also seems that the majority of T-Nation leans towards evolution.

I’m not interested in a debate of who’s right or wrong I’m just interested in who believes that God created us and his son Jesus came and died on the cross for our sins so that if we believe in Him and trust in Him for salvation that you will go to heaven.

Just curious.

FatSensei

I believe that, absolutely.

Evolution and Creation are not contradictions in my opinion. Additionally, for me personally the evidence in support for Christianity is overwhelming.

EVIDENCE, HA!!! I’ve got one word that for you …DINOSAURS??? [/quote]

What is your point? There were dinosaurs. There aren’t anymore. What does that have to do with this discussion?

[Professor_X]

[quote]The Red Monk wrote:
You infuriatingly continue to ignore my central question— why should your interpretation of Scripture be privileged over anyone else’s? How does the Bible provide for these completely different interpretations within what is essentially SUPPOSED to be the same moral system? Specifically, what makes you enough of an authority on what the Bible says that you can denounce other human beings, smarter and more educated than yourself, who would completely disagree with your reading of the Bible? The difference in years is immaterial.
[/quote]

Who is disagreeing? Who alive today thinks we need another Crusade? Dude, please quit the bullshit. I don’t give a flying book of Solomon about what ancient men thought they should do with all of the power they had. Oh wait, you did factor that little tidbit into your wonderful assessment of religion didn’t you? That absolute power corrupts absolutely? At that time, the church had the power of the government. That is something you should think about as well the next time you are in the voting booth. I dare you to bring the scripture into this and argue directly from it with the full understanding of the significance of the Old Testament from the New.

[Junior]

Slavery
It’s probably better that I respond to points vs. posts. Slavery was a fact of life for the Jews and most other cultures at that time. Often a person could serve as an indentured servant for a period to pay debts not otherwise payable. It was and still is in some countries an economic fact that is no less immoral, but an immoral imposition to a large degree based on corrupt government.

Truth
I like this one because it is surprisingly the most contentious subject matter there is. That noone can agree on what the truth is, this is plain for all here to see. But let’s try and get some “non-believers” to confess that at least there is a single, undisputable, ultimate TRUTH. This is harder than it should be. You are not ‘above it all’ or more intellectual, logical, or whatever if you fail to recognize that there must be SOME ulitmate truth. It is the nature of truth, the definition of truth is that it exists as the sole representation of fact and reality. IF you can admit that there must be one single answer that represents the truth, then all other answers are thereby lies or misrepresentations of THE single, actual, truth—(this is where many intellectuals or ‘educated’, start to experience discomfort)-- hang on here–then you are light years ahead of many ‘enlightened’, intellectuals/formally educated folks in society today. But then, having arrived at this understanding, that SOME fact must represent THE single truth about these religious matters, and all others are falsehoods, well then, your work has just begun, hasn’t it? If you insist there is no truth, that it does not exist, you’re in some sort of major denial of any reality, and coincidentally intellectually bankrupt. Pontius Pilate asked Christ “What is truth?” in a snide response to Christ’s allusion to the fact that He knew the truth, and is the Truth. Pilate at least acknowledged that the truth exists, but implied it is unknowable. This with truth literally staring him in the face! I will remind you all it is not the argument I hope to win. You have graciously identified yourselves as unbelievers, for our prayers, and you are in them.

[The_Red_Monk]

As I attempted to specify, the Crusade is one tiny little example-- one I was trying to use as an exemplar for my argument.
The generla point is that Christians can’t even keep morality straight amongst their own faith for a consistent period of time, let alone settle the question for all humanity in an eternal sense. Yes, I know you don’t care about what ancient men said or did with what they had-- that is precisely the problem. Everyone who lives imagines that their own age is the most significant, that the “truths” they’ve learned are self-evident, and that the way they see the world trumps every other perspective civilization has managed to produce. Most Christians I talk to look at the Bible, work from their individual interpretation, and then have the balls to tell me they’re informing me of Eternal truths.
Truth evolves and changes-- you don’t care about history’s contribution to and interpretation of your faith, because everyone alive today (In this country, at least) would agree on something. How can you assign anything Eternal significance if something precisely concerning it as recent as a thousand years ago is immaterial to you? A thousand years is the smallest half-blink of an eye in the eternal sense. If the Bible contains clear truths on a moral life, why has even the very small faith of Christianity (when compared with all who’ve lived) failed to produce a moral vision that is even remotely consistent?

[pookie]

[quote]The Red Monk wrote:
The generla point is that Christians can’t even keep morality straight amongst their own faith for a consistent period of time, let alone settle the question for all humanity in an eternal sense.

…

If the Bible contains clear truths on a moral life, why has even the very small faith of Christianity (when compared with all who’ve lived) failed to produce a moral vision that is even remotely consistent?[/quote]

Question: If Christianity had managed 2000 years without any moral faux pas; if its history was without blemish and contained only examples of love, forgiveness and tolerance; would you believe?

[Ty_Grandstrand]

As a Christian, I want to say that this is a very poor argument to sway non-believers.

I remember in the TILF thread a guy said after he had dead lifted a large amount (like 700lbs?) his sone came up and tried to lift it. Then he said that it made him want to lead by example, that he realized this is what kids pay most attention to.

Same with people, I’d rather live my life straight and show people what it means to be a Christain, than waste time trying to grow seeds on top of hard rock…

[quote]rocksolid wrote:
I absolutely believe. And for those who do not, here is an interesting thought. If I am wrong, and I go through life believing in Christ and his sacrifice on the cross for my sins but in the end we just die and go nowhere, oh well. But if I am right, and nonbelievers are doomed to an eternity in separation from their Creator, what a big mistake it would have been to not believe. At least give it some thought all you nonbelievers. Believing does not mean you are a stupid, mindless, automaton. Give it a shot and enter with an open mind and heart.[/quote]

[KombatAthlete]

It doesn’t matter what religion you follow as long as you have a religion IMO. The vast majority preach the same basic tenets.

Most Christians I know cannot grasp the concept that the church and God are not the same entities and go back to that ‘House of God stuff’. I have been told by the same church that the church is God’s house but that God is everywhere and I can’t seem to tell which is their official stance.

[Ty_Grandstrand]

[quote]pookie wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Could you show the scripture? I have not read the entire bible and have never claimed to. I also hate discussion based on what someone “remembers” a scripture read.

Kings 1, 7:23 -

He made the Sea of cast metal, circular in shape, measuring ten cubits from rim to rim and five cubits high. It took a line of thirty cubits to measure around it.

[/quote]

Something tells me this was an estimation - weren’t cubits pretty big too? - It’s like making an estimation in feet or yards?

[Ty_Grandstrand]

Anyone feels weird around these people, that’s because they are offbase. I really don’t understand the corner people, but I do understand the people “healing” on television. They want money. Just because they call themselves Christians doesn’t mean they are.

If I claim to be an aetheist and start saying things for all aetheists - would anyone give me credit, especially if they were really dumb?

As an Aetheist I would like to condone killing of all non aetheists. All of us Aetheists have been planning this for a long time - so it is time for you to DIE. Unless you become an Aetheist! Save your Life - by becoming an Aetheist.

See where im going?

[quote]IronHell wrote:
and now people standing at the corner of the street with posters that tell you are going to hell unless you “believe”, think about the tackily dressed man on Sunday televisions performing “miracles” (I had a good quote on this, but can’t find it… will post it later once I do find it) etc. Do you think a non-believer will sincerely believe in god through the words of some hobo on a street corner?
[/quote]

[The_Red_Monk]

I see what you’re getting at, pookie, but it’s an impossible question for me-- because I don’t know where right ends and wrong begins. I certainly don’t think there are absolute lines to define those two things, and i suspect that it depends on the individual.

[Ty_Grandstrand]

[quote]tjd772 wrote:
Let me preface this by answering the original question, no i do not believe in a judeo-christian god or jesus. the reason for this does not stem from any sort of lack of faith or trusting the tenets of evolution. it stems, rather, from my distrust of the bible. the first issue that i have with the bible is that establishes a power structure and tells people that revolution and being a “traitor” are sins of the highest order and are punishable by eternity in the deepest layer of hell, where lucifer himself was sent. this is established both in the story about the war in heaven and in the first commandment (not worshipping anything more than god).

because many of the people who administer religion are so closely tied to politics (are and always have been), and many power figures claim to be attached in some way or another to god, the message is “if you go against this representative of god you have taken something as higher than god and therefore broken the first commandment, and here’s what happens to those, who in their pride, break the first commandment.”

does this mean that the founding fathers of our country are now in the depths of hell with lucifer himself since they went against the king of england who was supposed to be an instrument of god? or does this mean that they were the righteous and that the soldiers who fought and died for their country (though being commanded by a “tyrant”, i.e. the british soldiers) who were otherwise good men and christians are now punished in the depths of hell for their actions?

my other main issue with the bible is that we here in America read from a bible that is written in our language, not the one that it was originally written in. this will, undoubtedly lead to many important messages and impressions being taken out of context. one example of how things can be lost in translation (though not necessarily relevan to this discussion) is the commandment that in english reads “thou shalt not kill”. great, good rule. however, in the original hebrew text, the direct translation would be “thou shalt not murder”. BIIIIIG difference. if things like this happened throughout the translation of the bible, which they undoubtedly did, then the words that so many are talking as absolute and divine truth are skewed and not in line with what god originally wanted his children to know about him and his nature.

Well thats all i really have the energy to type right now, but why does it seem like everyone on this sight is either christian or some form of atheis/agnostic? where are the opinions from the jews, muslims, mormons, etc.? i think that by adding the opinions of different religious groups, this discussion will really open up (though that may not be what we want/need on a body building / power lifting site).

TJ[/quote]

God is different from a book of rules. A book of rules can’t tell the difference between two different breakers of the rules. However, God can .

So saying - is this person in hell for this action, is somewhat foolish - especially since we are not supposed to judge, but let that be done by God himself.

[pookie]

[quote]The Red Monk wrote:
I see what you’re getting at, pookie, but it’s an impossible question for me-- because I don’t know where right ends and wrong begins. I certainly don’t think there are absolute lines to define those two things, and i suspect that it depends on the individual. [/quote]

Well some are pretty easy. What if they’d been no crusades, no inquisitions, no witch burnings, a vigorous denounciation of the holocaust and no amassing of monumental wealth? What if, while not being “all good, all the time”, it was “mostly good, most of the time and arguably not too bad the rest of the time?”

I’m just curious. I was reading some of your posts and your argument against Christianity seemed to be based on the fact that Christians still do evil things. I was wondering if your criteria for a worthwhile religion would be the one with the least “evil” done by its adherent.