Who Believes?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
281

You’re confusing two issues. Just because God is acting in the best interest of the human race, doesn’t mean that it follows that man is accepting the program. Truth is the majority of people will reject Christ and will answer to the necessary consequence thereafter. It is, after all, each man’s choice. Now the world you see is in perfect harmony with revealed scripture.

Created in perfection and completion.
Choice and capacity built into man.
Sinful choice made.
Natural implications thereafter.
Mankind is born into blind sin in which he is helpless and unaware of it.
God, in justice, cannot allow sin to continue in His direct presence.
God, in mercy and love, desires not the destruction of His own children.
Satan, filled with pride, believes he has God stymied.
God being omniscient and omnipotent, had Satan’s number all along.
Both God’s justice and mercy can be fully satisfied via Christ.
Christ, as a substitution, vicariously carries our sin and makes atonement for man.
Man exercises his will and accepts or rejects.
The hardness, blindness, and sinfulness of man causes many to remain as they are.
Enter the present.
We are in a fallen world, full of self serving beings who one one hand find misery and pain in life on a daily basis because we were created for a different “world”.
Concurrently, we are bombarded with the message of order, beauty, love, and much more.
In essence you are seeing a foretaste of both heaven and hell on this limited game board.
You are expected to make a choice.
You’re choice will be honored.

[quote]Miserere wrote:
Disc Hoss wrote:
God is moving in different time frames in a coherent and wise way for the betterment of the human race…

It was at this point of the Christian reasoning where many people throught history became atheists, or stopped believing in an intervening God.

The World is going to shit. That’s not my opinion, it’s fact, just look around. Simply because I have a cozy home and a job doesn’t make the World right; it’s not. Most of the human population lives in extreme circumstances. And let’s not start talking about wars!

So many people have decided that a God that lets this happen is not worthy of being believed in. The Christian faith tries to counteract this (and use it to their advantage) by telling you the more miserable you are in life the worthier you’ll be of Heaven.

====
Whoa dude. Whoever you’ve been talking too hasn’t given you a Christian answer. That is why you need to go to the source. Because I tell you I am something doesn’t mean that I am. The proof is in the pudding. MANY have claimed to be followers of Christ, but unless you adhere to the whole consel of scripture, you are a fraud. A wolf in sheep’s clothing. Christ WARNED theta there would be many. You are possibly confusing Roman Catholicism with Christianity. Many do. If you used this “someone claims to be” argument in every facet of life you’d not believe anything at all. Anything. Not even your own name. You are making me out to be a Muslim. That is showing great ignorance of the Christian faith of which you seem bent on debating with me. That is illogical, and borderline irrational. I’m not an electrician and therefore I know to keep my limited knowledge of circuitry to myself unless I want to take the time to educate myself. I don’t debate an electrician when I haven’t even taken the respectful and necessary time to have a working knowledge of a matter. This is not to be cruel or sarcastic. I hope you can accept this. To be a Christian is to be a follower of Christ. Nothing more, nothing less.

Voluntary martyrs have taken this belief to the extreme.

In short, you’re shooting yourself in the foot by attempting to convinve anyone of a God that loves us and looks over us, because, one again, we see no proof of this.[/quote]

=-==
Today you are breathing. You live in a beautiful world, despite man’s constant attempt to make it otherwise. God’s grace continues to endure to allow YOU and everyone time to consider His offer. You have two hands to work and create with. You have two feet to take you anywhere you want to go. Two eyes to see your child’s smile now or in the future. I could list a billion things that the grace of God gives you at this very moment. All you give is sarcasm and a lack of respect to the God who made you and to those on this thread who believe. That’s fine both He and we are used to it. We were all there once in one form or another.

The biggest example of grace is that you are not dead and in hell as we speak. Thank God for his awesome mercy and goodwill toward us all.

[/quote]

282

[quote]Disc Hoss wrote:
Intentional ignorance is reserved for some* of those who have a front seat on God’s panaorama. The Biblical doctrine is that man is born in the condition of pride (self-centeredness) such as all children display. It is an abberation in the original design introduced via sin. The vast majority of unbelievers are blind not by choice per se, but rather by nature.

DH

[/quote]

Thats funny!!! Your calling an “unbeliver” blind.

Riddle me this. Is it even slightly possible that that people could use religion to explain things before science could. In greek mythology people thought the sun was a flaming chariot being pulled across the sky. If you believe that we are all doomed.

Perhaps a king ws having trouble keeping his surfs in line. At a point when his knights were spread to thin. So he cooked up the all seeing all knowing GOD to put the smack down. The king is choosen by GOD and the king just wants you to do gods work.

People would not lie to control someone else right?

Some people willing to go under the ether of religion for false hope. They work in a sweatshop for 2 cents an hour until the die. But its all worth it because Jebus is going to take them to heaven. Maybe death is heaven at that point. Maybe its just a coincidence that Benny Hinn can sell out multi 100,000 seat stadiums in third world countries. He sells hope to the hopeless.

If you believe in god do you also believe in Santa Claus, Eater Bunny, Tooth Fairy? Why Not!?!?!?!

I don’t believe. It’s the only logical conclusion.

283

Bolx,
I’ll assume you are an intelligent capable man. The sources are plentiful. Try Faith, Form and Time. It’s a great book by a star pupil of one of the nation’s premeire evolution advocates. That student is Kurt Wise. Having seen the very face of evolution, he had to honest and walk away not only unswayed but dismayed at the lack of science and proof.

I will not do the leg work for anyone on this site. If it is of much import to anyone, then they’ll find the time.

Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

You might also look up “That Their Words May be Used Against Them”. A book of info and quotes from leading scientists in every field, many of whom are not Christians, who deride evololution as a bane in science that is a religious belief that is causing a professinal ostracism of all who disagree, no matter how well founded thier arguments. “Dont’ confuse me with the facts” mentality.

DH

284

Friend, perhaps you should stay on the bench. The team was doing better without you. Your poor attitude, lack of ability to create a coherent argument, and apparent avesion to reading and understanding my previous posts says all I need to know. The more thoughtful and respectful evolutionists and/or unbelievers are worth the time to converse with. You aren’t interested in knowledge as apparently you know it all already. I’d love to know your age.

DH

[quote]Ironlung wrote:
Disc Hoss wrote:
Intentional ignorance is reserved for some* of those who have a front seat on God’s panaorama. The Biblical doctrine is that man is born in the condition of pride (self-centeredness) such as all children display. It is an abberation in the original design introduced via sin. The vast majority of unbelievers are blind not by choice per se, but rather by nature.

DH

Thats funny!!! Your calling an “unbeliver” blind.

Riddle me this. Is it even slightly possible that that people could use religion to explain things before science could. In greek mythology people thought the sun was a flaming chariot being pulled across the sky. If you believe that we are all doomed.

Perhaps a king ws having trouble keeping his surfs in line. At a point when his knights were spread to thin. So he cooked up the all seeing all knowing GOD to put the smack down. The king is choosen by GOD and the king just wants you to do gods work.

People would not lie to control someone else right?

Some people willing to go under the ether of religion for false hope. They work in a sweatshop for 2 cents an hour until the die. But its all worth it because Jebus is going to take them to heaven. Maybe death is heaven at that point. Maybe its just a coincidence that Benny Hinn can sell out multi 100,000 seat stadiums in third world countries. He sells hope to the hopeless.

If you believe in god do you also believe in Santa Claus, Eater Bunny, Tooth Fairy? Why Not!?!?!?!

I don’t believe. It’s the only logical conclusion.[/quote]

285

[quote]WMD wrote:
According to some pagan Roman historians, what Constantine saw was Apollo’s chariot. He certainly dedicated as many temples to Apollo as he did churches and didn’t convert until he lay dying. It was easier to be a bad boy and repent when one died, you know, just in case.[/quote]

I’m sorry, I thought we were talking about Keanu Reeves. My Bad.

286

Hoss,

I was born in mid 1976 that makes me 29 at the moment.

I was not personally attacking anyone. I just get frustrated when some are so matter of fact that god exists.

I appollogise if my last post was unintelligible. I re-read it myself and I think I had a few points. Instead of attacking me personally why don’t you address the last question in my last post.

287

OllyB,
Thanks for your adult demeanor. We can shoot the breeze and wax theological as long as you have an interest. No one is served with the majority of attitudes flooding the thread.

As for Flew, I think there is acquiescence to the professional crowd. Notice he’s still a deist. Either way, he’s one man. Nothing more. Try Alvin Plantinga. A brilliant theistic philosopher with a great book Analytic Theism.

===
Now as to the subjective take on the Bible, it really draws us back to the same postion as before. I think “a” so “a” is accptable and the converse. Each man’s reason is the supreme deity. If I claim to be a loyal husband, then I need to not define loyalty in the Bill Clinton style of creative definitions, I need to let the word/concept exist as an absolute. Otherwise all reason and argument stops because we can all say “I don’t want to” and the intellectual discussion is over. This is a prime metaphor for science and faith. I should have emotion and volition in my attempt to reason, but should not allow the first two to trump the third because they are have inherently different domains. Reason is not emotion and emotion is not reason. They are NOT mutually exclusive or definitional opposites, but rather complementary. Such as with science and religion. They are not opposites or mutually exclusive either. They are complementary. Science shows much proof for Creation and then where it’s limits are, faith is exercised. Not blind ignorant faith, but a faith that sees proof in every facet of life. The world of science, the world of thought (philosophy), the world of the social sciences. There is the apriori assumption that we are dealing with diametric opposites, which is a logical fallacy.

One is only a Christian, by the very definition by Christ, if he is a follower of Christ. If I negate, contradict, edit out, add to, or in any other way adulterate His teachings, then I am by definition NOT His disciple. Not a Christian. I can call myself a poached egg, but that doesn’t mean I am. My claim doesn’t hold up to scrutiny. At best I am confused and at worst I am bent on evil in this claim. But no matter which, we have the Bible and therefore cannot claim ignorance in our defense.

To avoid verbiage, as I am wordy by nature, it’s simple. Christ set the definition for a Christian. To be like Christ. In doctrine and it’s practical outworking. If you vary in any way then we can all see it is a simple matter of logic that I am NOT following His doctrine but my own spin on it. Now guess who my god is again? :wink:

DH

[quote]OllyB wrote:
Hoss, I’m not sure that I agree with your opinion on Flew (that he is disagreeing with evolution as a whole and not just part of someone’s ideas on evolution). I don’t mean that as an attack - your posts are well thought out, intelligent and lucid. I just always prefer it from the horse’s mouth (no pun, I promise).

I know quite a few Christians who see no problem with evolution and their faith, nor with taking the Bible as a piece of literature and not as literal. Myself included. What are your views on those opinions? This is a genuine question, not a flame (I promise: I don’t mean to get you to answer so I can attack you, I’m interested in your thoughts).[/quote]

288

I appreciate the new tone. I think I fully addressed it many times over. Chase some of these concepts down the rabbit hole and see what you find. Really, and I’m not being derogatory, I’ve stated my case amply.

DH

[quote]Ironlung wrote:
Hoss,

I was born in mid 1976 that makes me 29 at the moment.

I was not personally attacking anyone. I just get frustrated when some are so matter of fact that god exists.

I appollogise if my last post was unintelligible. I re-read it myself and I think I had a few points. Instead of attacking me personally why don’t you address the last question in my last post.[/quote]

289

Very well stated, Junior. Very well indeed.

DH

[quote]Junior wrote:
The Red Monk wrote:
DH, I’ve enjoyed your careful and thorough answers on this page, but you pick up a dangerous sword in accusing scientists of deifying human interpretation. Isn’t this precisely what all believers in Supreme Beings have been doing for time immemorial?

Entirely leaving aside every spiritual faith alternative to Christianity in human civilization (100% of believers pre-Christ and two thirds or more post Christ, which is a huge step to take in and of itself, Christianity itself has hardly provided a unified vision.

Christian morality has changed and evolved drastically and constantly over its 2,000 year history. To give one small example, in the 1200s the Crusading doctrine was embraced by a majority of Western Christians, who saw killing a non-believer in the Holy land as not only morally correct, but a path to remission of sins. Would even 1% of modern Christians agree? Would they see this as a sure way of pleasing God? Most Christians I talk to defend the New Testament as valid because the Council of Nicaea in which its texts were accepted and many others rejected in A.D. 325 was Divinely Inspired. Two further Ecumenical councils of similar prestige and importance convened on the issue of Icons in worship for instance, one rejecting them as unholy and one upholding them as necessary. Most modern American Christians entirely neglect Icons out of indifference-- is God now indifferent? Did God change His mind earlier? These are very small examples in an endless field of them. Human interpretation has been essential to spiritual belief from the beginning-- I have only been able to conclude that this therefore destroys any solid “truth” about the way in which we should conduct ourselves, OR that God has indeed been constantly changing His mind on the subject for the last couple of thousand years.

It all makes the prospect of ‘pleasing God’ very intimidating and not very promising. How do I know that the generally accepted interpretation of today is the correct one? The dilemma also causes folks who assure me of a loving and merciful God to get under my skin, despite their best intentions.

I am glad to know there are believers here. I am also a Christian. Red monk, you might consider reading the bible and coming to your own conclusions. A million crimes have been committed in the name of whatever religion, even the occ. serial killer swears he is doing God’s work, based on the Bible, God, or whatever. So, the crusader example and others like it don’t wash with anyone who bothers to read the word for themselves, humbly asking God for insight, and hoping to get it. Certainly I will confess that many Christians are among the greatest obstacles to successfully converting anyone to my faith. I will confess I have been guilty of this. We as Christians don’t want to win the arguement (though if one could, might be disc-hoss) as much as we want to win your soul. Please bear in mind that as believers we do want to see all come to salvation through our lord Jesus Christ. In fact, an atheist once remarked (words to the effect) that if Christianity is true, then Christians must not care about their fellow man very much, because if it’s true, then they should be screaming from the rooftops 24/7 to try and get the news out! Thank God we don’t have to rely on the body of Christ (the church) to deliver itself, or anyone, from destruction, only on Jesus Christ.[/quote]

290

[quote]Xvim wrote:
I see no reason to believe the christian creation myth any more than I would believe the hindi, norse or aztec creation myths. Though I find it profoundly disappointing that so many otherwise intellegent people choose to base their lives in superstition and myth, as long as you’re not forcing it on me I’m cool with it, believe what you have to. That being said, blocking stem cell research for religous reasons does effect me, so does spreading the ignorance inherent in ‘intellegent design’ in the school systems.[/quote]

Wow. I’m speechless. And that’s hard to do. There are people who want to discuss things and then well…there are others.

DH

291

You are speaking in a way that one might think you actually know Jesus and what His thoughts are. You should really let Him speak for Himself, which would necessitate reading the Bible as a WHOLE. Plucking out of context is poor form.

Those of us who do know Christ, can see that you are your own god. You give Christ your thoughts, your words, and your vocabulary. Look Ma, no Bible! Why can’t people see this simple point?

You just made a deity in your own image and gave it the name “Jesus”. All the while you don’t even see that how irrational that is.

DH

[quote]KombatAthlete wrote:
I think believing in Jesus or any specific god has no bearing on whether you go to heaven if there is such a place. It does not even matter if there is a Heaven or if you are reincarnated. The purpose of religion in this world is to make people live better; when people forget that simple truth and believe they are superior to somene simply because they believe in Jesus religion turns to shit. That is why I love Buddhism in its authentic form; no people sitting on thrones, no golden statues, etc. just religion with its purpose.

Do you think Jesus honestly gives two shits if you believe in him? If he does so then he has an ego a human characteristic and that would take away his divinity so I doubt it. He wants you to live a better, more happy and helpful life and thats all that matters in the end. The church, rituals, etc. are all stuff added to the mix. I think the church as an institution has veered way off from religion; the Vatican has billions of dollars sitting in vaults and has done things other institutions would be fried for.[/quote]

292

I do not believe Junior even began to approach my question, let alone answer it. Crusades and other ‘crimes’ don’t wash with anyone who bothers to read the word for themselves? You display a stunning ignorance of those who have come before you. Are you aware of even a few of the wise men who have done plenty of reading the Bible for themselves, who probably knew it much better than you, and still came to the conclusion that Crusading (to continue with this small example) was not only legitimate, but a path to Heaven?

Take Bernard of Clairvaux, for instance. His education was far better than the vast majority of his contemporaries, and even among other educated and reasonable men he had gained a reputation as being especially wise and thoughtful. As a very important clergymen, his very life was dedicated to interpretation of Scripture for the benefit of the Christian flock. Yet after careful consideration, he not only endorsed Crusading and the founding of Christian Military orders, he led the recruiting for the Second Crusade, easily the largest mobilzation of soldiers the Western World had seen for hundreds of years. These were not big, dumb, barbarians exhorting people to go strike down the infidel-- these were the most educated and level-headed men of their age.

Do you really believe that with your 9-5 job and worldly occupation, that you are wiser and understand the Bible better than they could? That they truly didn’t “bother to read it for themselves”? Hundreds of thousands of men and women looked in their hearts and searched their minds based on the sermons they heard, and the smaller percentage that were capable of reading Latin and Greek pored endlessly over Scripture-- they came to the conclusion that Crusading was not a crime, but a way to save one’s soul. And this is just one of many, many examples from our past that bear this comparison.

If you still can answer “yes” with a straight face, then I find I find it more than a little ironic that the labels of “blind” and “making oneself God” are coming from your direction.
And if the answer truly is ‘yes’-- then what of those men and who had it so ‘wrong’ over the course of our history? I’ll reiterate that Crusades are just one small example; I could go on for hours with others.

Are these millions of Christians, to say nothing of every other kind of believer and non-believer who ever lived, displeasing to God? Do they have no excuse? Does God only have room in His heart for today’s Christian? (Although I suspect even “today’s Christian” would have plenty of points to argue on-- take Lebanon’s Maronite Christians, for example. Many perfectly intelligent and reasonable men with Bible learning there view the Crusades as a sort of glorious period in their region’s history)

There must either be exceptions in God’s eyes among all these erronious people, or there must not be exceptions. Either way, the idea that the Bible’s teachings provide an easily recognizable moral code for all mankind to follow, a moral code that is mandatory if mankind does not want to endure an eternity of punishment-- seems incredibly suspect.

When I honestly humble myself to the scope of mankind’s history, and remove the assumption that I alone am standing on the pinnacle of human learning and understanding, and that wiser men than me have walked the earth before-- I find it very hard to believe that right and wrong in all their complexities have a recognizable answer every time in the Bible; an answer one must uphold or suffer Eternal punishment.

293

http://images.t-nation.com/forum_images/./1/.1125590161936.shakyamuni-triad_34m.jpg

[quote]KombatAthlete wrote:
That is why I love Buddhism in its authentic form; no people sitting on thrones, no golden statues, etc. just religion with its purpose.
[/quote]

294

We can have consensus that Santa, Easter Bunny and the Tooth fairy in fact do not exist.

So why can’t the bible be a work of fiction, like so many other books, that give a little insight to the human condition?

295

[quote]The Red Monk wrote:
I do not believe Junior even began to approach my question, let alone answer it. Crusades and other ‘crimes’ don’t wash with anyone who bothers to read the word for themselves? You display a stunning ignorance of those who have come before you. Are you aware of even a few of the wise men who have done plenty of reading the Bible for themselves, who probably knew it much better than you, and still came to the conclusion that Crusading (to continue with this small example) was not only legitimate, but a path to Heaven?
[/quote]

Could you explain why anyone would have to have an understanding of earlier people associated with a belief when the belief, and even associated text, doesn’t agree with their actions?

296

[quote]Warrior Spirit wrote:
KombatAthlete wrote:
That is why I love Buddhism in its authentic form; no people sitting on thrones, no golden statues, etc. just religion with its purpose.
[/quote]

That is not Buddhism in its original form. That is Buddhism as it has evolved for hundreds of years and is most likely a work of art not a thing of worship. People manage to deviate from the original in every religion and that is what that statue is a testament to not the actual religion.

297

[quote]Disc Hoss wrote:
You are speaking in a way that one might think you actually know Jesus and what His thoughts are. You should really let Him speak for Himself, which would necessitate reading the Bible as a WHOLE. Plucking out of context is poor form.

Those of us who do know Christ, can see that you are your own god. You give Christ your thoughts, your words, and your vocabulary. Look Ma, no Bible! Why can’t people see this simple point?

You just made a deity in your own image and gave it the name “Jesus”. All the while you don’t even see that how irrational that is.

DH

KombatAthlete wrote:
I think believing in Jesus or any specific god has no bearing on whether you go to heaven if there is such a place. It does not even matter if there is a Heaven or if you are reincarnated. The purpose of religion in this world is to make people live better; when people forget that simple truth and believe they are superior to somene simply because they believe in Jesus religion turns to shit. That is why I love Buddhism in its authentic form; no people sitting on thrones, no golden statues, etc. just religion with its purpose.

Do you think Jesus honestly gives two shits if you believe in him? If he does so then he has an ego a human characteristic and that would take away his divinity so I doubt it. He wants you to live a better, more happy and helpful life and thats all that matters in the end. The church, rituals, etc. are all stuff added to the mix. I think the church as an institution has veered way off from religion; the Vatican has billions of dollars sitting in vaults and has done things other institutions would be fried for.

[/quote]

Well, to be fair I see a lot of christians that start discussions about science in general with the ET as their major target without investing the time to find out what the theories they don?t like actually claim.

298

[quote]Disc Hoss wrote:
Xvim wrote:
I see no reason to believe the christian creation myth any more than I would believe the hindi, norse or aztec creation myths. Though I find it profoundly disappointing that so many otherwise intellegent people choose to base their lives in superstition and myth, as long as you’re not forcing it on me I’m cool with it, believe what you have to. That being said, blocking stem cell research for religous reasons does effect me, so does spreading the ignorance inherent in ‘intellegent design’ in the school systems.

Wow. I’m speechless. And that’s hard to do. There are people who want to discuss things and then well…there are others.

DH

[/quote]

You must belong to the others, because he has a point.

With hundreds of religions and thousands of gods that are dead and gone now, answer me one question:

Why is your holy book special?

See, you can argue the finer points of theology all you want, and you can be able to discuss them more skillfully than a jesuit monk, but in the end it does not matter how complicated a fairy tale gets, if the real question is, if it?s true or not.

299

The explanation (and the point) Professor is that those earlier people associated with that belief would heartily disagree with you on whether or not that belief disagrees with their actions. You are speaking from the point of view of today’s Christianity-- it is the height of arrogance and ignorance to assume that today’s is superior to yesterday’s, especially when plenty of the men of yesterday spent more time than you ever will trying to understand the Bible and its messages.

300

[quote]orion wrote:

With hundreds of religions and thousands of gods that are dead and gone now, answer me one question:

Why is your holy book special?

See, you can argue the finer points of theology all you want, and you can be able to discuss them more skillfully than a jesuit monk, but in the end it does not matter how complicated a fairy tale gets, if the real question is, if it?s true or not.
[/quote]

AMEN!!!