Who Believes?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
181

[quote]fatsensei wrote:
…who believes that God created us and his son Jesus came and died on the cross for our sins so that if we believe in Him and trust in Him for salvation that you will go to heaven.

FatSensei[/quote]

If you do a quick check on the web, you’ll see current estimates put the age of the universe at over 10 billion years. That’s pretty old.

The most distant galaxy detected to date is about 13 billion light years away - suggesting that universe is pretty big (http://www.rednova.com/news/stories/1/2004/03/01/story103.html).
The number of large galaxies in the universe is presently estimated to be 350 billion; the number of dwarf galaxies is 3.5 trillion. (http://anzwers.org/free/universe/universe.html). The number of stars in the universe is estimated, by the same source as being 30 billion trillion. That’s a pretty big number.

Humans are notorious liars. History is written by those vitorious in battle, not losers; history is reshaped by later victors.

In the modern day, many of us mock and laugh at the way old (and now defunct) civilizations worhipped their gods (take a look at the Greeks, for example - most everyone accepts many of these gods to be fiction; and I am one of them. There are hundreds of other civilizations that also held what most would consider “strange beliefs” prior to the advent of christianity).

Yet in spite of this, we are expected to believe that a second ago, the creater of this fairly large sized domain (i.e. universe) took it upon itself to have its son (in the shape of a human) exist on this planet to teach right from wrong; and to “die” for this cause.

I personally am completely unable to leap that far, and even Chad Waterbury is not capable of training my Type IIb fibres to help me bridge that gap, either. :slight_smile:

The more I contemplate my existence, the more puzzled I become about its meaning. Also, the more convinced I become that the Christianity version of events is as false as the once-held belief that the World is Flat, the earth is the center of the universe and Jupiters moons do not actually orbit Jupiter.

To answer the direct question: No, I don’t believe.

To answer the indirect question: No, I don’t actually know if I’m right, either, so I respect that others’ views, and especially their reasoning, will differ from mine.

Regards,

WiZ

182

[quote]fatsensei wrote:
It seems that there have been alot of discussions on evolution/creation lately and it also seems that the majority of T-Nation leans towards evolution.

I’m not interested in a debate of who’s right or wrong I’m just interested in who believes that God created us and his son Jesus came and died on the cross for our sins so that if we believe in Him and trust in Him for salvation that you will go to heaven.

Just curious.

FatSensei[/quote]

I think you have more than one question here that should be separated.

Someone can believe that God created man and the world and not believe in Jesus (Jews are a good example).

So if you want to know about creation don?t combine it with the Christian perspective as there are many other belief systems that don?t believe in Yeshua, but do believe in creation.

I personally believe in both.

183

[quote]fatsensei wrote:
I’m not interested in a debate of who’s right or wrong I’m just interested in who believes that God created us and his son Jesus came and died on the cross for our sins so that if we believe in Him and trust in Him for salvation that you will go to heaven. Just curious.
FatSensei[/quote]

I believe it.

LJ

184

I do not believe in the Christian god or the divinty of Jesus.

I find it rather arrogant that some Christians say to believe in JHVH for the sole reason that it’s a good idea to “hedge your bets.” As if Christianity or atheism were the only two choices! I’d like to see Odin put the smack down on a Christian for not dying in battle :wink:

The practice of some atheists considering Christians to be idiots is the same as Christians considering atheists to all be immoral heathens living without purpose. However I’m working on a hypothesis that states that the majority of American Christians are in fact idiots (tongue in cheek of course!)

I believe that this life has more importance than a mere test to see where you go after you die. Also, I find the idea of an eternal afterlife a bit of a stretch. Our time here is limited, why not our time after? If there is an afterlife, eventually we will “die” in it and our energy will move to another form (since as X says, energy is neither created nor destroyed).

I personally do not need a god to give my life purpose, nor to ensure that I act rightly. I can do that without threat of divine punishment and without the possibility of eternal reward.

I’m sure there are things that are beyond human comprehension, whether they stay that way remains to be seen.

I’m not afraid to say “I don’t know”, or to say “I was wrong” when presented with new evidence. If more people did this, there would be a lot less hate.

185

I believe.

One reason I try to avoid getting involved with this type of topic is that as indicated by the status of this thread, some people’s reading comprehension/maturity, is…well…less than desired.

186

[quote]pookie wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
It could be wrong, but I believe, which is where this thread started. All the proof I need is to watch the sun set over a mountain valley in the fall. Only God could make something like that.

Yes, you’re wrong. Have you ever noticed how mountains resemble piles of pasta? And how the sun is really just a big, very spicy meatball?

Only the great Flying Spaghetti Monster can make something like that.
[/quote]

I am a long time reader of this site who hasn’t posted for years (original username was just Blackjack). The exchange leading up to the above punch line was one of the funniest I’ve ever read. People use the lol thing way too much but reading the above I actually started laughing and just couldn’t stop. I suppose that for an old, over the hill guy I have a pretty juvenile sense of humor but pookie you are, in my opinion, very funny.

I really just wanted to post to thank you for such a funny moment but I’ll also take the bait and throw in my two cents. I do believe in God and I think one good reason to believe is to cultivate thankfulness. No, you don’t have to believe in God to feel thankful but on some level it helps. Thankfulness is a very powerful thing and I’ve found that actively trying to cultivate a mindset of thankfulness makes life sweeter and helps take the edge off all the little problems. Be thankful to be alive. HOWEVER, having said that, I think that the idea that the Bible is the exact word of God is, frankly, more than a bit absurd. Believe what you want but there is overwhelming evidence that the world was not created in a few days (you might argue some of the finer points of evolution but no serious thinker can make a case for this) or that all the world’s creatures fit onto a boat or any of a whole bunch of other myths that the Bible puts forth (and yes, they are by and large all very old pagan myths that predate their telling in our Bible). Also, there are just huge parts of the Bible (old and new) that put forth things that I just can’t get behind. For instance, I’d encourage anyone who considers themselves a believer to carefully read Exodus and Leviticus. They are full of things like the following (and this is God himself speaking):
Leviticus 25:44 “As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from the nations that are round about you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their families that are with you, who may have been born in your land; and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you, to inherit as a possession for ever; you may make slaves of them…”
The above was used by people in the South to justify slavery. Other sections (in Exodus) talk about when it is okay to sleep with female slaves and the proper methods to beat slaves. Also, any one who really reads the bible will quickly realize that they are not doing a lot of things that God directly commands us to do (animal sacrifices on various days, etc.) I have heard some tricky thinking from Christians on this stuff but the reality is Jesus was a Jew and it is clear that he expected his followers to obey the things that God directly commands in the Old Testament. All right, this is getting way too long for something I decided to write on a lark. I must add, however, that I am finding T-nation a little harder to read recently because all the Bible beating freaks make it annoying to read some threads (for instance, I enjoyed the recent Paleo Eating article until the idiot factor went thru the roof). Again, let me emphasize that I really do believe in God and make a point of thanking him/her every day for all the beautiful things I see out here in Arizona and all the good things in my life, but for the minority who pound their Bibles and insist that every word must be true I say get some education and open your minds up to everything human beings have figured out over the past thousand years. Don’t build your lives around a myth.

187

Your response creates a “strawman” argument. It is not a question of either/or with relation to being a “good guy” who isn’t a follower of Christ OR a poser who claims to be.

The real situation to consider is that God’s standard isn’t being better than Hitler, better than Jimmy Hoffa Sr., or even better than the guy down the street. That is a misconception. The standard is perfection. Not because God is petty, but because God is holy. He can, by nature, allow no sin in his direct presence. Kinda like sunlight allows no darkness in it’s presence. They are mutually exclusive by nature. This isn’t an off the cuff decision, but rather an immutable reality. See the difference?

God’s standard is thereby, of necessity, perfection. THAT is why, in his infinite love, he created a substitutional sacrifice. Christ met the demands of a perfect life on your behalf, so that you, who cannot do so, might be able to accept the grace and gift of God.

Christ is anything but petty, my friend. He gave it all for you. Now the ball is in your court.

Take time to study/consider Christ’s offer. Realize that many of His followers are going to let you down. They are works in process. That is why we follow Him, and not one another. The difference between you and I is simple and yet infinitely profound. I have acknowledged my inability to meet the requirements of the law perfectly. You have not come to this understanding yet. Because of this I have received God’s gift since upon understanding that God requires perfection, not just the scales tipped in my favor, I have asked for forgiveness. The purpose of the Old Testament was to create a standard that would leave man exasperated after his best efforts. Because of the blindness of our fallen state, we see ourselves as basically good because we compare against others on a relative scale. The Old Testament Law was one gigantic mirror to show a blind race their true refelction. They cannot even keep 10 rules no matter how hard they try. Something is broke inside. The standard isn’t relative but rather absolute. Once man realized that he couldn’t even comply with the 10 commandments, or even the essence thereof when Christ consolidated them into 2 commandments, that man would then have his eyes opened that indeed he can at times desire good, but finds that he cannot attain the good that he desires. This mirror was given in love from a Father to his children to show them their situation. We cannot accpet this easily because our pride is a stumbling block. Satan’s fall was predicated upon pride and it is ours also.

Sorry to make a sermon, but I like to give people a good thorough answer to an important topic. If I strive to do this in matters of training on T-mag, then I should all the more strive to do so on matters of eternal destination. At least to those who are respectfully questioning. If one goes beyond this, you’ll not see any answer from me. They really don’t want to know in the first place and all involved would be wasting their time.

best,
DH

[quote]pookie wrote:
rocksolid wrote:
I absolutely believe. And for those who do not, here is an interesting thought. If I am wrong, and I go through life believing in Christ and his sacrifice on the cross for my sins but in the end we just die and go nowhere, oh well. But if I am right, and nonbelievers are doomed to an eternity in separation from their Creator, what a big mistake it would have been to not believe.

That’s called “Pascal’s wager” from Blaise Pascal who first proposed it (or at least published it.)

It is possible to live one’s life lawfully and ethically without believing in God. If there is a God and he decides to punish me for being honest in my beliefs well that’s a pretty petty God. I already live a good, ethical, law-abiding life. I give to charities, I take care of my kids, I help my friends and neighbors. I’m faithful to my wife, I work hard, pay my taxes and I keep my word when I give it. It wouldn’t be very hard for me to simply fake it; go to church on sunday and say all the right things at the right places. It’s not like I didn’t learn them as a kid. But I would feel dishonest in doing so. If there really is a God, he’d know that I’m just playing along, right? I rather stay true to what I believe, or don’t believe in this case. It’s not like I’m expecting an afterlife anyway.

I’d rather be an honest atheist than a deceitful believer.[/quote]

188

BJ,
I’ll only say this. You’re limited in your grasp of an infinite God having to move through dispensations to bring a fallen race around to face a mirror to be humbled enough to accept Christ. It’s like turning an ocean liner around. Man has a way of kicking against the goads when he has something shoved in his face. God is moving in different time frames in a coherent and wise way for the betterment of the human race after the total destruction of our ability to be like Him in holiness due to our decision to sin. This will always confuse you until you begin to see the picture as whole.

DH

[quote]blackjack2 wrote:
pookie wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
It could be wrong, but I believe, which is where this thread started. All the proof I need is to watch the sun set over a mountain valley in the fall. Only God could make something like that.

Yes, you’re wrong. Have you ever noticed how mountains resemble piles of pasta? And how the sun is really just a big, very spicy meatball?

Only the great Flying Spaghetti Monster can make something like that.

I am a long time reader of this site who hasn’t posted for years (original username was just Blackjack). The exchange leading up to the above punch line was one of the funniest I’ve ever read. People use the lol thing way too much but reading the above I actually started laughing and just couldn’t stop. I suppose that for an old, over the hill guy I have a pretty juvenile sense of humor but pookie you are, in my opinion, very funny.

I really just wanted to post to thank you for such a funny moment but I’ll also take the bait and throw in my two cents. I do believe in God and I think one good reason to believe is to cultivate thankfulness. No, you don’t have to believe in God to feel thankful but on some level it helps. Thankfulness is a very powerful thing and I’ve found that actively trying to cultivate a mindset of thankfulness makes life sweeter and helps take the edge off all the little problems. Be thankful to be alive. HOWEVER, having said that, I think that the idea that the Bible is the exact word of God is, frankly, more than a bit absurd. Believe what you want but there is overwhelming evidence that the world was not created in a few days (you might argue some of the finer points of evolution but no serious thinker can make a case for this) or that all the world’s creatures fit onto a boat or any of a whole bunch of other myths that the Bible puts forth (and yes, they are by and large all very old pagan myths that predate their telling in our Bible). Also, there are just huge parts of the Bible (old and new) that put forth things that I just can’t get behind. For instance, I’d encourage anyone who considers themselves a believer to carefully read Exodus and Leviticus. They are full of things like the following (and this is God himself speaking):
Leviticus 25:44 “As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from the nations that are round about you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their families that are with you, who may have been born in your land; and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you, to inherit as a possession for ever; you may make slaves of them…”
The above was used by people in the South to justify slavery. Other sections (in Exodus) talk about when it is okay to sleep with female slaves and the proper methods to beat slaves. Also, any one who really reads the bible will quickly realize that they are not doing a lot of things that God directly commands us to do (animal sacrifices on various days, etc.) I have heard some tricky thinking from Christians on this stuff but the reality is Jesus was a Jew and it is clear that he expected his followers to obey the things that God directly commands in the Old Testament. All right, this is getting way too long for something I decided to write on a lark. I must add, however, that I am finding T-nation a little harder to read recently because all the Bible beating freaks make it annoying to read some threads (for instance, I enjoyed the recent Paleo Eating article until the idiot factor went thru the roof). Again, let me emphasize that I really do believe in God and make a point of thanking him/her every day for all the beautiful things I see out here in Arizona and all the good things in my life, but for the minority who pound their Bibles and insist that every word must be true I say get some education and open your minds up to everything human beings have figured out over the past thousand years. Don’t build your lives around a myth.[/quote]

189

I belive in God.

190

The problem with Asimov and others who see the situation is myopia. You can’t prove love, hate, the human mind, and a myriad of other realities that we experience everyday. We don’t question their existence just because we can’t “measure” them. You are trying to limit supra-natural and/or non physical realities by their ability to be proven by the scientific method. Apples and oranges. You’re forcing a square peg into a round hole, and when it doensn’t fit you claim victory. Kinda silly.

BTW, your assumption that only what you can measure with science is a religious belief that requires faith predicated upon a deity that is known to be both errant and finite. That is man. Today’s fact is tomorrow’s fluke. That’s alot of faith to put into such an “unscientific” and inherently flawed god as a man. Funny how atheists and agnostics don’t realize that we all have a god of some sort. You just happen to be your own. Not THAT is some flawed science and philosophy. Your apriori assumption is centered upon the accepted “fact” that you are both capable of finding and understanding truth in an of yourself. That makes YOU god. Funny how it was this exact issue that caused both the fall of Satan and man. Ye shall be as God. That hasn’t been working since the beginning of man. The job is taken.

DH

[quote]pookie wrote:
Elkhntr1 wrote:
Pookie, I hear what you are saying about the believers labeling an agnostic “wishy washy”, but I hate absolutes of any kind. For me, one definitively saying there is no God is just as annoying as one saying there is a place in the clouds called heaven.

For me it was learning to feel comfortable with not having the answers and dealing with the existance I find myself in the hear and now.

I like Asimov’s take.

You’re right, agnosticism is pretty much the only defensible position (at least as far as logic goes…) Just as you can’t prove God, you can’t deny the possibility either.

I also dislike “militant atheists” and don’t want to be lumped in with that group, but the label “atheist” makes my position clear from the start and cuts down on long explanation.[/quote]

191

[quote]Professor X wrote:
T-Quinn wrote:
Belief = War

No, apparently, invisible WMD’s equal war. [/quote]

Well alot of people believed they were there.

192

[quote]fatsensei wrote:
It seems that there have been alot of discussions on evolution/creation lately and it also seems that the majority of T-Nation leans towards evolution.

I’m not interested in a debate of who’s right or wrong I’m just interested in who believes that God created us and his son Jesus came and died on the cross for our sins so that if we believe in Him and trust in Him for salvation that you will go to heaven.

Just curious.

FatSensei[/quote]

I believe this with every fiber of my being.

193

I don’t think most people are capable of accepting the truth. Religon is a great coping mechanism and before science came about it was a great way to explain away hard questions. What’s that Strong Words quote that was just up here last month?

“Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened.” -Sir Winston Churchill

Another one from just last week:

“Do not seek the truth, only cease to cherish your opinions.” Zen Proverb

Subjective consciousness is a very real thing, and you will not see it explained away by science. You will see science accept it at the very least as an intricate part of reality; like gravity. “God” is also very real (I have come to believe), but I do not think the human mind is yet even capable of understanding “God” anymore than I think people can accept that we are ants today to what our decendents will be a million or two years from now.

People also couldn’t accept a true concept of a “soul” knowing there will be (and no doubt ARE out there right now) beings that will be infinitely more intelligent than us with MUCH faster and higher thought and emotional reasoning structures than we have now. A lot of people also cannot accept that animals also have subjective consciousness, and thus also must have souls. If people could figure out when a fetus develops S.C., we could solve the abortion issue right now, but unfortunately most people can’t put more than two neurons together at any given moment and prefer to rely on dogma and emotional reaction.

Yeah, I know it sounds loony, but in less than 200 years science will probably provide enough evidence through the coming technologies to show people this, and (more importantly) the people with their minds stuck in the dogma will die out.

“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.” -Planck, Max; 1858-1947; German physicist, quoted in Mossis Kline: Mathematics and the Search for Knowledge

I just wish the whole process moved a bit faster than it does now. But as long as Jesus (or whatever other religous beliefs out there) keep people from killing each other and overthrowing the rich, it all serves the grand purpose. (By the way… sects of Islam no longer hold true to either of those two, so… well… bye bye extremist Islam and probably the overall world popularity of Islam.) That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

194

[quote]vroom wrote:
I’m sitting on the fence… but when I get old I’m going to convert to catholicism and confess, just in case.[/quote]

That’s definitely not an answer I thought I would hear from Vroom.

195

So then whats your point Prof X???

I dont get it. You argue everything with everyone when it comes to your cherished dogma without providing answers (since you seem to have plenty of them) to some of the more simpler mundane shit and then blow it off by saying something truly igonorant like :

  1. You dont have proof
  2. Its just a theory
  3. Rabbits are cannibals
  4. You dont have proof
  5. Its just a theory
  6. Cheeseburger are rabbits and so am I

Comeon already!

I dont get it. You virtually FIGHT online with anyone making ANY point (about this god thing) that contradicts your views and then when someone comes here with something just as dumb as your “arguments” you blow them off with your snotty-ass attitude.

Ya know what man. Its like no one here wants to tell you that youre a pompous, arrogant whiner that simply doesnt possess the level of knowledge required to debate this particular issue.
Give it up.
Youve convinced no one and dont tell me youre not trying because the desperation is more than apparent its to the point of cruelty.

Amir

“Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence.” - Richard Dawkins

[quote]Professor X wrote:
paul bunyan wrote:
WHAT ABOUT DINOSAURS
On what day did GOD create dinosaurs and why did he destroy them? Please enlighten me someone. Death really sucks so what better way to extort people then to promise them an everlasting peaceful afterlife.

Those DoDo birds are extinct as well. Don’t forget them.

I swear, some post just to let the ignorance drain before their head explodes. There have been many animals and species on this planet that are now extinct. The way things are going, polar bears and pandas may not be too far behind.

If you don’t believe in God, so be it. But don’t act as if you are more intelligent than those who do or as if you have stumbled upon anything that “disproves” the presence of God.[/quote]

196

[quote]Professor X wrote:
rainjack wrote:
fatsensei wrote:
… who believes that God created us and his son Jesus came and died on the cross for our sins so that if we believe in Him and trust in Him for salvation that you will go to heaven.

Just curious.

FatSensei

I absolutely believe that.

Agreed. For some reason, this seems to really piss off some evolutionists who want to hold to the idea that anyone who does believe in God is an idiot who can not compare to their massive intellect.
[/quote]

I believe In GOD …oh yeah Albert Einstein believed too and we all know how dumb he was…

197

[quote]AMIRisSQUAT wrote:
So then whats your point Prof X???

I dont get it. You argue everything with everyone when it comes to your cherished dogma without providing answers (since you seem to have plenty of them) to some of the more simpler mundane shit and then blow it off by saying something truly igonorant like :

  1. You dont have proof
  2. Its just a theory
  3. Rabbits are cannibals
  4. You dont have proof
  5. Its just a theory
  6. Cheeseburger are rabbits and so am I

Comeon already!

I dont get it. You virtually FIGHT online with anyone making ANY point (about this god thing) that contradicts your views and then when someone comes here with something just as dumb as your “arguments” you blow them off with your snotty-ass attitude.

Ya know what man. Its like no one here wants to tell you that youre a pompous, arrogant whiner that simply doesnt possess the level of knowledge required to debate this particular issue.
Give it up.
Youve convinced no one and dont tell me youre not trying because the desperation is more than apparent its to the point of cruelty.

Amir

“Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence.” - Richard Dawkins
[/quote]

Desperation? Kid, I haven’t argued my point any stronger than anyone else did theirs’. My point was simply that I believe and that if you don’t, so be it. However, don’t assume that non-belief makes you more intelligent than those who believe. THAT was my point. Had you not become such a “whiner” yourself you would have easily been able to see that. Like I said, I think it truly pisses some of you off any time you run across someone who can argue their point of view beyond being a blind follower of religion.

I am not a regular church goer even though my father was a preacher. It isn’t that I simply don’t want to go to church, but that I find little comfort in what I see in humans who believe they are more righteous than all others…then they go to the same clubs, have the same premarital sex, and commit the same activities that fly in the face of what they “preach”. I have faith in God, not man, and I think many lose sight of where their focus should be placed. It is very easy to turn on the tv and note which televangelist got caught with a naked stripper…or what Catholic priest fondled a little boy. Those are the faults of man and they are plenty. I acknowledge that, and try to keep my eye on what really matters. Why this bothers you, I don’t know. Perhaps you were expecting religious stupidity. I’m sorry that didn’t work out for you.

198

After reading your posts on this thread, I finally decided I had to answer this one.

[quote]Disc Hoss wrote:
The problem with Asimov and others who see the situation is myopia.[/quote]

An atheist will say the exact same thing about you! :slight_smile:

Therein lies the problem. Most of us experience love, hate, and a myriad of other realities; how many experience God? I suspect you believe you do, but many people don’t.

I don’t agree here. Just because something is supra-natural and/or non physical, should not make it unintelligible to Science. For example, before quarks were observed, they were postulated by theoretical physicists. Nobody could see them (and we still can’t), but they explained much of what was going on in the subatomic world. In a way, they were supra-natural and non physical. Eventually bigger accelerators were built and evidence for their existence began to appear. Mind you, we still have not seen a naked quark, on it’s own.

So, 6 quarks are postulated to exist, and each has certain unique characteristics (mass, charge, spin, etc.). Some scientists don’t believe they exist, but after experiments found evidence for their existence, they were accepted as real particles, but we’ve never seen one, even though we have seen its effects!

What I’m getting at is this: The reasons that you give for having seen the effects of God, are not good enough for many people to convince them that they should believe in something they cannot see. and I’m not only talking about scientists here.

You are wrong here in your assignment of belief. Science does not put faith in Man, Science puts faith in the scientific method. I think I’ll correct myself here, faith was the wrong choice of word! Faith is believing in something without a reason. The scientific method, since it was written out and detailed by Galileo in the 16th century, had been proven to work. Every time. By its very nature and definition, it has to work, that is why scientists use it, because science is in the business of finding out how, when, why things work. There is no faith being placed in science, none at all!

If new evidence appears that does not match the prevailing theory, the theory is changed to fit the facts. There is nothing shameful in that. And I don’t think you meant to use “fluke,” which means “stroke of luck.” Did you mean that today’s fact is tomorrow’s mistake? that’s how I’ve interpreted it. And again, scientists are not placing their faith in Man, or indeed in anything. They are following a proven, logical, scientific methodology that works.

I have met just as many conceited atheists and scientists, as I have religious people. Again, scientists are not their own gods, neither do they believe to be so.

Thanks to men believing they could find truth, you now live in a house, and are typing into a computer, having a discussion with people living all over the globe, across a this thing called the internet. If Man hadn’t started believing in himself and sat back to expect everything to be done for him, we’d still be living in caves.

We’d probably have great bodies too, according to Drs Berardi and Williams :slight_smile:

Not so. That makes me (or whomever you’re talking to) a very curious person who wants to know and understand by the power of his own mind. If I may use some of your weapons: If God didn’t want us to ask questions and seek out their answers, why did She give us such a curious brain?

[/quote]Funny how it was this exact issue that caused both the fall of Satan and man. Ye shall be as God. That hasn’t been working since the beginning of man. The job is taken.[/quote]

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Gen 1:27

If God did that, then I doubt She has any problems with Man trying to be all that he can be. (I appologise for sounding like a US Army commercial.)

199

BlackJack v2.0,

Welcome back.

Thanks for an enlightened post. I share many of your apprehensions concerning some of the things people write on T-Nation.

I hope to see you post more often!

M.

200

[quote]Disc Hoss wrote:
God is moving in different time frames in a coherent and wise way for the betterment of the human race…[/quote]

It was at this point of the Christian reasoning where many people throught history became atheists, or stopped believing in an intervening God.

The World is going to shit. That’s not my opinion, it’s fact, just look around. Simply because I have a cozy home and a job doesn’t make the World right; it’s not. Most of the human population lives in extreme circumstances. And let’s not start talking about wars!

So many people have decided that a God that lets this happen is not worthy of being believed in. The Christian faith tries to counteract this (and use it to their advantage) by telling you the more miserable you are in life the worthier you’ll be of Heaven. Voluntary martyrs have taken this belief to the extreme.

In short, you’re shooting yourself in the foot by attempting to convinve anyone of a God that loves us and looks over us, because, one again, we see no proof of this.