Where Do You Find Faith?

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161

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I don’t forget where I came from and I remember how hard it was to be poor. God or Jesus isn’t telling me to do it, my conscience is. I do not believe that I’m somehow “unique” in this. People are fundamentally good when they aren’t struggling to feed themselves. Also, I recognize that I have a “debt” to society for what I did when I was young, and I pay my debts.

I believe that people would help each other WITHOUT the influence of religion, simply because it’s the right thing to do.[/quote]

Great post. I feel the same way about religion except without the animosity towards it, but I understand your disdain.

I do have to say I am conflicted on the helping others out part, I believe our society is near equal parts givers and takers regardless if religion is involved.

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[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]nkklllll wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
I think that’s just the way I’m made, and I’m grateful. As others have said, I see the divine in the complexities of our own human biology, and in the beauties of the natural world. I know non-believers feel some awe when they think about these things as well, but for me I see intelligence there too. [/quote]

I would say this is true of me, too, and I was raised by agnostic, and possibly atheist, parents. I just don’t see how the exquisite systems I see at play could be the result of chaos and accident.

On the other hand, I don’t believe in a God who is deeply wrapped up in our day-to-day lives and rewards belief in Jesus with answered prayers for easy livin’. To me the corollary of that is a God who wants innocent people to suffer war and famine and enslavement. It just doesn’t make sense, this first world/third world business.

But intelligent design: yes.[/quote]

There is no promise of “easy living” in the Bible. Quite the contrary, the Old Testament is filled with men and women suffering to bring people to God, and the New Testament is pretty clear in its claim that people who believe in Jesus will be persecuted.[/quote]

I too kinda wondered where this “easy living” in the Bible came from.

Also, “a God who wants innocent people to suffer?” Good grief, Em, has your yellow submarine spent some time in the mind of God and granted you some research results?[/quote]

I’m talking about the people I encounter who seem to parse things this way. I see it all the time, and especially did living in the south. “Praying for you!” over a new job or whatever. Have you not encountered the Footprints in the Sand, “prayers needed!” school of faith?

I don’t suggest that God wants anyone to suffer. I suggest that some of our first world brethren seem to think that “God is good!” on a very involved day to day basis. Personally, I disagree, because to believe thusly opens me to the horror of God’s presumed involvement in less golden lives.

I’m talking about people here. Not theology. I believe in intelligent design, which I view as “God.” I’m vaguely Judaeo-Christian, and probably closer to Judaeo than Christian.

[/quote]

Yeah, I have to agree with you there. If you look at what makes the most sense, prayer seems to be more of a tool for you to get closer to God, like a conversation with a friend would be. And the idea would be that the closer you were to God, the more likely you would be to pray for the things he intends to give you. Therefore: answered prayers. But, its all speculation on my part. I won’t know all the answers until I’m dead, and maybe not even then, so . . .

163

[quote]Testy1 wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I don’t forget where I came from and I remember how hard it was to be poor. God or Jesus isn’t telling me to do it, my conscience is. I do not believe that I’m somehow “unique” in this. People are fundamentally good when they aren’t struggling to feed themselves. Also, I recognize that I have a “debt” to society for what I did when I was young, and I pay my debts.

I believe that people would help each other WITHOUT the influence of religion, simply because it’s the right thing to do.[/quote]

I do have to say I am conflicted on the helping others out part, I believe our society is near equal parts givers and takers regardless if religion is involved.
[/quote]

^This last line. Although I feel like society is more on the side of takers. It’s too easy to be lazy.

AC: You’ve lived longer than I have, so you’ve experienced more. But most of my experiences in the last 8 years of high school and college, have shown me that people get increasingly wrapped up in themselves, unless something crushes that world view. And for many people nothing does. Especially the smart people.

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[quote]angry chicken wrote:

I believe that people would help each other WITHOUT the influence of religion, simply because it’s the right thing to do.[/quote]

Correct, but that doesn’t mean that someone who needs religion in their life, enjoys religion in their life, or is otherwise religious is wrong, insane, lessor than anyone else, until their actions prove them to be.

That is the issue with your animosity. It isn’t that anyone here thinks you need to change your mind and start at church or temple tomorrow. Its that you and the child who was posting before need to live and let live, and judge people as individuals based on their actions, not entire groups based on the faith or actions of similar people.

166

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
I think that’s just the way I’m made, and I’m grateful. As others have said, I see the divine in the complexities of our own human biology, and in the beauties of the natural world. I know non-believers feel some awe when they think about these things as well, but for me I see intelligence there too. [/quote]

I would say this is true of me, too, and I was raised by agnostic, and possibly atheist, parents. I just don’t see how the exquisite systems I see at play could be the result of chaos and accident.

On the other hand, I don’t believe in a God who is deeply wrapped up in our day-to-day lives and rewards belief in Jesus with answered prayers for easy livin’. To me the corollary of that is a God who wants innocent people to suffer war and famine and enslavement. It just doesn’t make sense, this first world/third world business.

But intelligent design: yes.[/quote]

So nice to talk to you, Em. I had a very different upbringing, but we have sounds like we have some similarities for sure. I’ve talked about his before. I was raised by a church attending LDS (Mormon) mother and a Christian but not a church attending dad. I’m definitely in the Christian camp and am sort of a hybrid of the two in many ways. I don’t believe in God as micro-manager. We are living in a very imperfect world full of imperfect people. And people are often effected by the times they live in - you happened to be born in Indonesia and a huge hurricane came through. That sort of thing. And evil men like Hitler have certainly had their moment. That doesn’t stop me from believing in God as loving and aware of each of us. So, I guess I’m further along the conventionally religious spectrum.

AC -

About what AC said about goodness. I agree, mostly. There’s a quote - “Going to church doesn’t make you a Christian, any more than standing in your garage makes you a car.” But there is some research that people who are reminded on a regular basis about principles like the 10 commandments tend to make more ethical decisions afterward. That doesn’t explain the corrupt preacher who rips off his congregation, but there is a principle there that applies to a lot of us. I happen to feel like a faith community brings something positive to my life, overall. Even if you have to learn to forgive some hypocrites or overlook some imperfect people of whatever, that’s personal growth too. I’m not talking about crazy abusers like the men in your childhood.

FWIW, my dad was raised by a church attending Southern Baptist mother, and a non church attending Christian father. His dad was actually a much kinder, more loving and compassionate person. His mom had her good points, but she could be a real judgmental, bigoted harpy. That had a long term effect on his ideas about religion. I’m grateful to have him in my life. His concept of God is all about grace and love, and he taught me that I could often feel more peace at the summit of a mountain than I might do on a church pew. I wish the father figures in your life had been more like my dad.

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Intelligent design is dis-proven by something called evolution.

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[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
Intelligent design is dis-proven by something called evolution.[/quote]

No it isn’t. All I have to do is propose that the designer designed the animals to change the way they needed to in order to get to where we are. Or, as things were changing, the designer guides things in the way he wanted.

170

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
Intelligent design is dis-proven by something called evolution.[/quote]

I could certainly look at many of your posts on this website and argue against intelligent design.

On the other hand I could again look at many of your posts and argue against survival of the fittest.[/quote]

From someone who disagrees with about everything you have to say on this thread, this is probably the best comeback line I’ve ever seen on the internet, way to go buddy.

171

[quote]nkklllll wrote:

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
Intelligent design is dis-proven by something called evolution.[/quote]

No it isn’t. All I have to do is propose that the designer designed the animals to change the way they needed to in order to get to where we are. Or, as things were changing, the designer guides things in the way he wanted.[/quote]

Agreed, if anything, to the believer who embraces it, evolution only supports intelligent design, and makes it even MORE awe inspiring. I mean, how fucking cool is it that the interaction of everything, down to the most insane mathematical detail works together and everything adapts and changes to the environment around it in a system, simultaneously?

It’s fucking righteous. (Not to mention its pretty damn cool how we as mankind can explore our world using the scientific method and gain a better understanding of all this.)

I’ve watched quite a few youtube debates, and I’m going to butcher this because the people talking about it are much smarter than I am but: the best way my dumb ass has heard it explained is that the universe is like one giant instrument panel, and if you were to go in and tweek even one dial just the smallest bit, the whole shit would just fail and implode on itself… But instead we chug along and tumble and spin through time… Conscious too boot.

Crazy shit, crazy.

172

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]nkklllll wrote:

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
Intelligent design is dis-proven by something called evolution.[/quote]

No it isn’t. All I have to do is propose that the designer designed the animals to change the way they needed to in order to get to where we are. Or, as things were changing, the designer guides things in the way he wanted.[/quote]

Agreed, if anything, to the believer who embraces it, evolution only supports intelligent design, and makes it even MORE awe inspiring. I mean, how fucking cool is it that the interaction of everything, down to the most insane mathematical detail works together and everything adapts and changes to the environment around it in a system, simultaneously?

It’s fucking righteous. (Not to mention its pretty damn cool how we as mankind can explore our world using the scientific method and gain a better understanding of all this.)

I’ve watched quite a few youtube debates, and I’m going to butcher this because the people talking about it are much smarter than I am but: the best way my dumb ass has heard it explained is that the universe is like one giant instrument panel, and if you were to go in and tweek even one dial just the smallest bit, the whole shit would just fail and implode on itself… But instead we chug along and tumble and spin through time… Conscious too boot.

Crazy shit, crazy. [/quote]

Many religious people accept evolutionary processes. Many religious people even believe that there may have been “pre-Adamites” or precursors to what we think of as modern man. That would mean that not all Biblical stories are meant to be literal. You’ll find disagreement among religious people on that. Bottom line, we may not know which processes God used to create the earth, or in the creation of humanity. Our understanding of how God works is limited, as is our understanding of the physical laws that govern the universe. I know several very religious professors in the physical and biological sciences. It’s not a deal breaker.

173

[quote]Powerpuff wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]nkklllll wrote:

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
Intelligent design is dis-proven by something called evolution.[/quote]

No it isn’t. All I have to do is propose that the designer designed the animals to change the way they needed to in order to get to where we are. Or, as things were changing, the designer guides things in the way he wanted.[/quote]

Agreed, if anything, to the believer who embraces it, evolution only supports intelligent design, and makes it even MORE awe inspiring. I mean, how fucking cool is it that the interaction of everything, down to the most insane mathematical detail works together and everything adapts and changes to the environment around it in a system, simultaneously?

It’s fucking righteous. (Not to mention its pretty damn cool how we as mankind can explore our world using the scientific method and gain a better understanding of all this.)

I’ve watched quite a few youtube debates, and I’m going to butcher this because the people talking about it are much smarter than I am but: the best way my dumb ass has heard it explained is that the universe is like one giant instrument panel, and if you were to go in and tweek even one dial just the smallest bit, the whole shit would just fail and implode on itself… But instead we chug along and tumble and spin through time… Conscious too boot.

Crazy shit, crazy. [/quote]

Many religious people accept evolutionary processes. Many religious people even believe that there may have been “pre-Adamites” or precursors to what we think of as modern man. That would mean that not all Biblical stories are meant to be literal. You’ll find disagreement among religious people on that. Bottom line, we may not know which processes God used to create the earth, or in the creation of humanity. Our understanding of how God works is limited, as is our understanding of the physical laws that govern the universe. I know several very religious professors in the physical and biological sciences. It’s not a deal breaker.
[/quote]

Yep. I can only give my best guess or reasoning when it comes to apparent “conflict” between science and various religions, but I’ve yet to see them be shown to be mutually exclusive.

174

[quote]nkklllll wrote:

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
Intelligent design is dis-proven by something called evolution.[/quote]

No it isn’t. All I have to do is propose that the designer designed the animals to change the way they needed to in order to get to where we are. Or, as things were changing, the designer guides things in the way he wanted.[/quote]

No, you don’t. I could just as easily say that a unicorn invented the universe, and that you were born this morning and all the memories in your head were planted there. Your “argument” is obviously a straw man.

I could argue that it isn’t intelligent design. If it was intelligent design, then there would be no need for them to evolve, since they would already be perfectly adapted to their surroundings, etc. What about vestigial organs? What about disease and genetic defects? Also, how do you know that the intelligent designer is God? Most importantly, intelligent design begs the question.

In any case, intelligent design by definition goes against the whole premise of natural selection.

175

lmao @ the religious in this thread being more open minded than the anti’s.

176

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]nkklllll wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
I think that’s just the way I’m made, and I’m grateful. As others have said, I see the divine in the complexities of our own human biology, and in the beauties of the natural world. I know non-believers feel some awe when they think about these things as well, but for me I see intelligence there too. [/quote]

I would say this is true of me, too, and I was raised by agnostic, and possibly atheist, parents. I just don’t see how the exquisite systems I see at play could be the result of chaos and accident.

On the other hand, I don’t believe in a God who is deeply wrapped up in our day-to-day lives and rewards belief in Jesus with answered prayers for easy livin’. To me the corollary of that is a God who wants innocent people to suffer war and famine and enslavement. It just doesn’t make sense, this first world/third world business.

But intelligent design: yes.[/quote]

There is no promise of “easy living” in the Bible. Quite the contrary, the Old Testament is filled with men and women suffering to bring people to God, and the New Testament is pretty clear in its claim that people who believe in Jesus will be persecuted.[/quote]

I too kinda wondered where this “easy living” in the Bible came from.

Also, “a God who wants innocent people to suffer?” Good grief, Em, has your yellow submarine spent some time in the mind of God and granted you some research results?[/quote]

I’m talking about the people I encounter who seem to parse things this way. I see it all the time, and especially did living in the south. “Praying for you!” over a new job or whatever. Have you not encountered the Footprints in the Sand, “prayers needed!” school of faith?

I don’t suggest that God wants anyone to suffer. I suggest that some of our first world brethren seem to think that “God is good!” on a very involved day to day basis. Personally, I disagree, because to believe thusly opens me to the horror of God’s presumed involvement in less golden lives.

I’m talking about people here. Not theology. I believe in intelligent design, which I view as “God.” I’m vaguely Judaeo-Christian, and probably closer to Judaeo than Christian.

[/quote]

You have, of course, walked straight into the wall of “How does a loving God allow bad things to happen to good people” and bloodied your oh so delicate little nose. It has confounded people for millennia so you’re not alone.

You’re not going to figure it out completely and neither am I nor the next guy in our days on this terrestrial orb. If we were all so doggone smart and sophisticated enough to be able to wrap our heads around this inscrutability we’d be gods. But we’re not, we’re mere naked mortal human beings with flawed intellects and limited reasoning ability especially compared to an Omnipotent Being.

Ya gotta faith. You already do…really. It’s just a question of where you happen to place it. You and many others who feel like you do have faith in your logic and reason and have determined that you can fathom what an almighty God should and should not do. I think that’s a risky proposition – to run 'round having faith that your Intelligent Designer doesn’t really know what’s He’s doing with his intelligent design.[/quote]

I haven’t bloodied my nose on anything - I’m not interested in trying to figure it out. I simply state that I find it naive to imagine that the first world God rewards things the third world God does not.

Stop putting words in my mouth, Push. I’m not struggling with my faith or anyone else’s. I’m comfortable with my belief in God, and I’m more than comfortable with the universe, which I find top-notch, well run, and deserving of my profound gratitude. Beyond that I expect people to exercise their free will and make goodness happen for themselves and the people they touch.

177

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
lmao @ the religious in this thread being more open minded than the anti’s.

[/quote]

Being open minded doesn’t mean you have to accept or agree with fairy tales.

178

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:

[quote]nkklllll wrote:

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
Intelligent design is dis-proven by something called evolution.[/quote]

No it isn’t. All I have to do is propose that the designer designed the animals to change the way they needed to in order to get to where we are. Or, as things were changing, the designer guides things in the way he wanted.[/quote]

No, you don’t. I could just as easily say that a unicorn invented the universe, and that you were born this morning and all the memories in your head were planted there. Your “argument” is obviously a straw man.

I could argue that it isn’t intelligent design. If it was intelligent design, then there would be no need for them to evolve, since they would already be perfectly adapted to their surroundings, etc. What about vestigial organs? What about disease and genetic defects? Also, how do you know that the intelligent designer is God? Most importantly, intelligent design begs the question.

In any case, intelligent design by definition goes against the whole premise of natural selection. [/quote]

Blaze: My argument isn’t a straw man. I’m not arguing against something that isn’t being argued in the first place. You argue that evolution disproves the possibility of intelligent design. It doesn’t. Not even close.

I can give you an answer for the sickness, vestigial organs, and genetic defects question, but you won’t like the answer. So I’m not even going to go there.

Your question about the intelligent designer being God (which God, Judeo, Christian, or Islamic, or another? maybe Krishna?) is not part of this argument. No one asserted that he/it/whatever, is the same God.

And you could argue about the unicorn and whatnot. And in fact, people have argued (pretty successfully) that you can’t know whether or not all of our memories were implanted just yesterday, or that what we experience is even real (see any philosophy paper on the dream machine, extreme skepticism, or reality). Descartes also argued against this pretty well.

179

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
lmao @ the religious in this thread being more open minded than the anti’s.

[/quote]

Not everyone in the anti’s is a total dick about it, and I’d agree evolution doesn’t explain everything. But I would disagree that intelligent design is a scientific theory for the basic reason that its not testable or refutable and depends on the supernatural. That doesn’t mean the theory isn’t true, its just not based in science.

http://www.ucsusa.org/scientific_integrity/what_you_can_do/science-evolution-and.html

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/04/0427_050427_intelligent_design.html

https://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/philosop/creation.htm

180

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
But I would disagree that intelligent design is a scientific theory [/quote]

I wouldn’t argue it was a scientific theory either.

If there is an omnipotent being, who designed the structure of the universe it simply put those dials in place just so, that being simply set in motion the world we study with science around us.

That’s how the two mix.

Science, in a way, becomes the new “religion”. It’s just a way that we try and understand the work of the omnipotent.

If there is no omnipotent being, science still becomes the new religion, but I’ll stop here as I can already tell some people will flip the fuck out over me saying that.