Where Do You Find Faith?

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101

[quote]bulkNcut wrote:

[quote]Powerpuff wrote:

[quote]bulkNcut wrote:
For those of you who are not religious, where do you find your faith? More specifically what makes you trust that things will turn out alright in the midst of adversity?

[/quote]

By faith do you mean optimism? The strength to endure? A hopeful and positive attitude?

You will find negative or pessimistic people, and discouraged people across the religious/ nonreligious spectrum. If you look at the research, religious people do tend to do better in terms of coping with tragedy. Some of that may stem from a more hopeful world view, or connection to community.

Some of the things you said in your OP about your heath challenges sound like you either haven’t lived long enough to experience real tragedy, or have an immature view of this mortal coil. We’re all subject to illness and death. Bad stuff happens to good people all the time.

“Living a charmed life” or hoping that nothing bad will happen if you’re good, or thinking that bad stuff only happens to a different kind of person, like there is something inherently different about people who have a kid die of cancer? That kind of thinking won’t take you very far.

The hope isn’t that you won’t get hurt, or that bad stuff won’t happen - it will. The hope is that you’ll be able to cope, and that you’ll find strength, and often humility and compassion for other people in the process.

There is beauty in everything. Check out beachguy. I’ll bet if given the opportunity to know the future 30 years ago, he’d marry her all over again, even knowing that he would outlive her and there would be some serious pain involved in that. He feels blessed that she was in his life, and the world was better because she was in it. She left a legacy of love. That’s the positive view. There’s beauty in that. It’s living fully, not trying to go through life avoiding painful stuff.

Be brave with your life. Or to quote Bruce Lee, “Do not pray for an easy life, pray for the strength to endure a difficult one.”

[/quote]

You’re right, I’m young. I sincerely hope I didn’t belittle others who have more severe situations. I’ve dealt with loss when my uncle (really close growing up) died suddenly, but other than that I’ve been very fortunate. And I know this is probably a meaningless gesture but I really hope I didn’t seem like I was comparing my situation to beachguy. I can’t even imagine what he’s going through and wish him the best
[/quote]

Not at all, young padowan. Sorry if I went all Yoda on you. Sometimes the middle-aged mom in me has to come out. Your question isn’t offensive in least. Nor does your personal struggle belittle anyone. We’re all at different points in life.

When you said you’ve “been very fortunate”, you hit on a key thing about being resilient. Taking some time to cultivate gratitude. If you’re religious you can count your blessings. If you’re not, you can just take some time to be thankful for the good stuff. To see the beauty in it. Good people that have come into your life. That sort of thing. Beachguy is experiencing something that most of us don’t want to imagine right now. The profound loss of a beloved spouse or child. But, when you look at the blessings part of it, it sounds like he already has himself in the “lucky bastard” column. One sad and hurting man, but blessed too. Some of it’s a matter of having some perspective, something we humans have a tough time with, middle-aged moms included.

The other thing that may help is think about the times in your life when you’ve faced something challenging and persevered. We tend to praise kids for some of their inherent qualities, saying things like “your so smart”, or praising them for getting the A even if it came easy, rather than for maintaining the optimism, grit, hard work and effort. You want them to learn to be tough and hang in there even when they experience failure and disappointment. To not be easily discouraged. So, if you’re a little soft in terms of overcoming difficult stuff, you can blame your parents for giving you too much of that self-esteem crap that’s been so popular over the past couple of decades.

102

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Powerpuff wrote:

[quote]bulkNcut wrote:
For those of you who are not religious, where do you find your faith? More specifically what makes you trust that things will turn out alright in the midst of adversity?

[/quote]

By faith do you mean optimism? The strength to endure? A hopeful and positive attitude?

You will find negative or pessimistic people, and discouraged people across the religious/ nonreligious spectrum. If you look at the research, religious people do tend to do better in terms of coping with tragedy. Some of that may stem from a more hopeful world view, or connection to community.

Some of the things you said in your OP about your heath challenges sound like you either haven’t lived long enough to experience real tragedy, or have an immature view of this mortal coil. We’re all subject to illness and death. Bad stuff happens to good people all the time.

“Living a charmed life” or hoping that nothing bad will happen if you’re good, or thinking that bad stuff only happens to a different kind of person, like there is something inherently different about people who have a kid die of cancer? That kind of thinking won’t take you very far.

The hope isn’t that you won’t get hurt, or that bad stuff won’t happen - it will. The hope is that you’ll be able to cope, and that you’ll find strength, and often humility and compassion for other people in the process.

There is beauty in everything. Check out beachguy. I’ll bet if given the opportunity to know the future 30 years ago, he’d marry her all over again, even knowing that he would outlive her and there would be some serious pain involved in that. He feels blessed that she was in his life, and the world was better because she was in it. She left a legacy of love. That’s the positive view. There’s beauty in that. It’s living fully, not trying to go through life avoiding painful stuff.

Be brave with your life. Or to quote Bruce Lee, “Do not pray for an easy life, pray for the strength to endure a difficult one.”

[/quote]

PP knocks another one of the park. I envy her eloquence.[/quote]

Thank you, Push.

103

[quote]Mark Dugdale wrote:

I’m assuming we can at least all agree that something has seriously gone awry. The world is full of injustice, oppression and personal tragedies. [/quote]

While your second sentence is true, in a lot of ways things are exponentially better than they’ve been in the past.

Human history is ugly as it gets, and things today, in a lot of ways, are significantly better than the have ever been. Shit, outside of Africa, slavery is pretty much gone, a thousand years ago people would have laughed in your face if you told them that would happen.

104

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Mark Dugdale wrote:

I’m assuming we can at least all agree that something has seriously gone awry. The world is full of injustice, oppression and personal tragedies. [/quote]

While your second sentence is true, in a lot of ways things are exponentially better than they’ve been in the past.

Human history is ugly as it gets, and things today, in a lot of ways, are significantly better than the have ever been. Shit, outside of Africa, slavery is pretty much gone, a thousand years ago people would have laughed in your face if you told them that would happen. [/quote]

+1

105

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Mark Dugdale wrote:

I’m assuming we can at least all agree that something has seriously gone awry. The world is full of injustice, oppression and personal tragedies. [/quote]

While your second sentence is true, in a lot of ways things are exponentially better than they’ve been in the past.

Human history is ugly as it gets, and things today, in a lot of ways, are significantly better than the have ever been. Shit, outside of Africa, slavery is pretty much gone, a thousand years ago people would have laughed in your face if you told them that would happen. [/quote]
Good point. However, for example sex trafficking is as big today as it ever was…and not in just places like India. Seattle, my hometown, ranks among the highest for sex trafficking/slavery for US cities. I can’t help but wonder if we haven’t exchanged one form of slavery for another.

106

[quote]Mark Dugdale wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Mark Dugdale wrote:

I’m assuming we can at least all agree that something has seriously gone awry. The world is full of injustice, oppression and personal tragedies. [/quote]

While your second sentence is true, in a lot of ways things are exponentially better than they’ve been in the past.

Human history is ugly as it gets, and things today, in a lot of ways, are significantly better than the have ever been. Shit, outside of Africa, slavery is pretty much gone, a thousand years ago people would have laughed in your face if you told them that would happen. [/quote]
Good point. However, for example sex trafficking is as big today as it ever was…and not in just places like India. Seattle, my hometown, ranks among the highest for sex trafficking/slavery for US cities. I can’t help but wonder if we haven’t exchanged one form of slavery for another.[/quote]

Sure, and you have a good point as well.

I guess I just see things from a perspective of "we’ve set up a system to allow us to change the bad in our (social) environment, and sometimes can even do this without having to shoot each other.

People shit on the Founders and early Americans, point to slavery, and say we aren’t as exceptional as we believe. Well, these people like to ignore the other half of history. The half that had the founders set up a system where we could get rid of slavery, and would have to eventually when the political environment allowed it. They also ignore the fact 300k+ white union soldiers with nothing to gain gave their lives to end slavery, but that doesn’t fit the narrative so they ignore it.

Women couldn’t vote… look, we have a system in place to change that, and did, without maximal blood shed.

Black weren’t people, until the Democrats finally figured out the Republicans had ti right and signed on to the fact black people are in fact human in the 1960’s. Certainly some blood shed…

I guess my point it, yes you are right, the sex trafficking issue is an issue, but we have the means to fix it without throwing the baby out with the bath water. (Not that I mean to imply you are suggesting we do.) It’s just, things are pretty good comparatively and getting better.

107

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

Some of us, myself included, find the hypocrisy to be unpalatable and the suspension of logic to be too far fetched.
[/quote]

I’m pretty sure that makes it bad, when it colors your perspective and allows individuals to make decisions based on fiction. Stem cell research, abortion, euthanasia, gay rights, etc.[/quote]

Actually the opposite is true. Being an atheist distorts your views on such things. As a reformed atheist I understand this better than most. The existential crisis that arose during the enlightenment directly resulted in the rejection of natural law precepts such as individual liberty, the sacredness of life and private property rights.[/quote]

No, it doesn’t, because being an atheist means you don’t believe in any sort of theism. There is no doctrine to subscribe to that distorts your views.

109

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

Some of us, myself included, find the hypocrisy to be unpalatable and the suspension of logic to be too far fetched.
[/quote]

I’m pretty sure that makes it bad, when it colors your perspective and allows individuals to make decisions based on fiction. Stem cell research, abortion, euthanasia, gay rights, etc.[/quote]

Actually the opposite is true. Being an atheist distorts your views on such things. As a reformed atheist I understand this better than most. The existential crisis that arose during the enlightenment directly resulted in the rejection of natural law precepts such as individual liberty, the sacredness of life and private property rights.[/quote]

No, it doesn’t, because being an atheist means you don’t believe in any sort of theism. There is no doctrine to subscribe to that distorts your views.

[/quote]

That’s precisely the point. It’s the lack of belief in an objective, extrinsic moral order that leads to the devaluation or rejection of natural rights. Intelligent atheists who have some knowledge of ethical philosophy understand the existential and moral crisis that atheism entails. Some like Richard Dawkins just plunge head first into nihilism and start excusing pedophilia and advocating the abortion of handicapped people and so on. Friedrich Nietzsche spent his life grappling with such problems and ended up in an insane asylum. Most just operate under a hypocritical ethical system that changes depending on the circumstance to suit some kind of ideological agenda or self interest.

110

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
It’s the lack of belief in an objective, extrinsic moral order that leads to the devaluation or rejection of natural rights.[/quote]

Either an “objective, extrinsic moral order” exists or it doesn’t. Whether you “believe” there is one doesn’t make it any more or less real. Either its real or it isn’t. If you have to “believe” in natural rights for them to exist then they don’t exist objectively or extrinsically.

111

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

Either an “objective, extrinsic moral order” exists or it doesn’t.
[/quote]

Correct.

Correct.

Correct.

You don’t have to believe in them for them to exist. They exist whether you believe in them or not. However if you don’t believe in them, then you don’t uphold them except by coincidence when they happen to accord with your own subjective ethical system.

112

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
That’s precisely the point. It’s the lack of belief in an objective, extrinsic moral order that leads to the devaluation or rejection of natural rights. Intelligent atheists who have some knowledge of ethical philosophy understand the existential and moral crisis that atheism entails. Some like Richard Dawkins just plunge head first into nihilism and start excusing pedophilia and advocating the abortion of handicapped people and so on. Friedrich Nietzsche spent his life grappling with such problems and ended up in an insane asylum. Most just operate under a hypocritical ethical system that changes depending on the circumstance to suit some kind of ideological agenda or self interest.[/quote]

Any and all concepts such as “rights” are human constructs. There is nothing objective about religion. If it were the case, you could not be subjective about it. Nor would their be dozens upon dozens of different kinds or religions and denominations.

Religion is a hypocritical ethical system that changes depending on the circumstances to suit some kind of ideological agenda or self interest.
See: All of religious history, religious people in positions of power and today’s new “interpretation” of religion ("Irrelevant of the rest of your post, which I didn’t read because none of what you mentioned is mine to own, things change, ideas change, and idea that a modern Christian is anything but 100% correct in believing the whole sale slaughter of children might not be the best idea, based on things written in a book thousands of years ago, maybe not to be taken literally, is a waste of conversation ").

Hey, guys, let’s take this book as being literal till it suddenly doesn’t suit us anymore, cause word of God is absolute but can be interpreted any way you damn well please. “Kill all babies?” No, no, that’s meant to be symbolism for uuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh…

Also, el oh el at the individuals calling atheists and those that think religion is bullshit as “idiots”. Cute how the moment we don’t agree with your fairy tale views, that we’re suddenly morons.

113

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
That’s precisely the point. It’s the lack of belief in an objective, extrinsic moral order that leads to the devaluation or rejection of natural rights. Intelligent atheists who have some knowledge of ethical philosophy understand the existential and moral crisis that atheism entails. Some like Richard Dawkins just plunge head first into nihilism and start excusing pedophilia and advocating the abortion of handicapped people and so on. Friedrich Nietzsche spent his life grappling with such problems and ended up in an insane asylum. Most just operate under a hypocritical ethical system that changes depending on the circumstance to suit some kind of ideological agenda or self interest.[/quote]

Any and all concepts such as “rights” are human constructs. There is nothing objective about religion. If it were the case, you could not be subjective about it. Nor would their be dozens upon dozens of different kinds or religions and denominations.

Religion is a hypocritical ethical system that changes depending on the circumstances to suit some kind of ideological agenda or self interest.
See: All of religious history, religious people in positions of power and today’s new “interpretation” of religion ("Irrelevant of the rest of your post, which I didn’t read because none of what you mentioned is mine to own, things change, ideas change, and idea that a modern Christian is anything but 100% correct in believing the whole sale slaughter of children might not be the best idea, based on things written in a book thousands of years ago, maybe not to be taken literally, is a waste of conversation ").

Hey, guys, let’s take this book as being literal till it suddenly doesn’t suit us anymore, cause word of God is absolute but can be interpreted any way you damn well please. “Kill all babies?” No, no, that’s meant to be symbolism for uuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh…

Also, el oh el at the individuals calling atheists and those that think religion is bullshit as “idiots”. Cute how the moment we don’t agree with your fairy tale views, that we’re suddenly morons.
[/quote]

No, you’re a moron because you can’t actually speak on the topic without emotional appeal, zero reference to anything but your opinions and keep using my posts, which come from a non-religious person, as proof of what religious people believe.

You’re a fool because you have fear. Fear to open your mind to what you ridicule, because the little box you’ve build around yourself that you call world would crumble if reality didn’t match your preconceived indoctrinated notions.

114

I’ve watched a fair number of religious debates on the you tubes… and in quite a few watched an atheists or agnostic wipe the floor with the religious debater.

Not a nary one of the Militants in this thread would make it past the opening statements of any of the theists, even the ones who haven’t mastered rhetoric. Which is pathetic considered the ridicule they toss towards believers. Entertaining to watch, but pathetic none the less.

115

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
That’s precisely the point. It’s the lack of belief in an objective, extrinsic moral order that leads to the devaluation or rejection of natural rights. Intelligent atheists who have some knowledge of ethical philosophy understand the existential and moral crisis that atheism entails. Some like Richard Dawkins just plunge head first into nihilism and start excusing pedophilia and advocating the abortion of handicapped people and so on. Friedrich Nietzsche spent his life grappling with such problems and ended up in an insane asylum. Most just operate under a hypocritical ethical system that changes depending on the circumstance to suit some kind of ideological agenda or self interest.[/quote]

Any and all concepts such as “rights” are human constructs. There is nothing objective about religion. If it were the case, you could not be subjective about it. Nor would their be dozens upon dozens of different kinds or religions and denominations.

Religion is a hypocritical ethical system that changes depending on the circumstances to suit some kind of ideological agenda or self interest.
See: All of religious history, religious people in positions of power and today’s new “interpretation” of religion ("Irrelevant of the rest of your post, which I didn’t read because none of what you mentioned is mine to own, things change, ideas change, and idea that a modern Christian is anything but 100% correct in believing the whole sale slaughter of children might not be the best idea, based on things written in a book thousands of years ago, maybe not to be taken literally, is a waste of conversation ").

Hey, guys, let’s take this book as being literal till it suddenly doesn’t suit us anymore, cause word of God is absolute but can be interpreted any way you damn well please. “Kill all babies?” No, no, that’s meant to be symbolism for uuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh…

Also, el oh el at the individuals calling atheists and those that think religion is bullshit as “idiots”. Cute how the moment we don’t agree with your fairy tale views, that we’re suddenly morons.
[/quote]

No, you’re a moron because you can’t actually speak on the topic without emotional appeal, zero reference to anything but your opinions and keep using my posts, which come from a non-religious person, as proof of what religious people believe.

You’re a fool because you have fear. Fear to open your mind to what you ridicule, because the little box you’ve build around yourself that you call world would crumble if reality didn’t match your preconceived indoctrinated notions. [/quote]

Sweet! Ad Hominems, strawmen and baseless assumptions. You’re making a very strong case for religion. I don’t get where this fear stuff comes from. From a completely objective and logical standpoint, religion is a load of bullshit. It doesn’t matter if you’re religious or not. See, I’m attacking the arguments, not the person. Whether a person is religious or not should not matter when it comes to what they’re saying.

You don’t need religion.

116

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
See, I’m attacking the arguments, not the person. [/quote]

No your not… your doing the same things I just did in my last post.

117

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:

You don’t need religion.

[/quote]

Who the fuck are you to tell other people what they need?

118

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
I’ve watched a fair number of religious debates on the you tubes… and in quite a few watched an atheists or agnostic wipe the floor with the religious debater.

Not a nary one of the Militants in this thread would make it past the opening statements of any of the theists, even the ones who haven’t mastered rhetoric. Which is pathetic considered the ridicule they toss towards believers. Entertaining to watch, but pathetic none the less. [/quote]

How’s the view up there?

Also, “nary” means “not a”, so you just said “not a” twice. I know you’re trying to seem smart but use words you’re familiar with, thanks.

119

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:

You don’t need religion.

[/quote]

Who the fuck are you to tell other people what they need?[/quote]

I care for my fellow human being. I don’t want them to waste their life believing in sky fairies. I also don’t want them to make decisions based on false beliefs that may hurt them, others, or myself.

Does it bother you when you see middle aged men live in their mother’s basement worshiping my little pony? Same deal.

120

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

Some of us, myself included, find the hypocrisy to be unpalatable and the suspension of logic to be too far fetched.
[/quote]

I’m pretty sure that makes it bad, when it colors your perspective and allows individuals to make decisions based on fiction. Stem cell research, abortion, euthanasia, gay rights, etc.[/quote]

Actually the opposite is true. Being an atheist distorts your views on such things. As a reformed atheist I understand this better than most. The existential crisis that arose during the enlightenment directly resulted in the rejection of natural law precepts such as individual liberty, the sacredness of life and private property rights.[/quote]

No, it doesn’t, because being an atheist means you don’t believe in any sort of theism. There is no doctrine to subscribe to that distorts your views.

[/quote]

I don’t have a dog in this race, but this is a total logical fallacy.

“Doctrine” does not refer specifically to religious beliefs. It is simply a codified system of teachings or instructions regarding a given subject. If atheists don’t subscribe to any given doctrine, how is it possible that whenever and wherever the topic arises I here the same pat arguments, often verbatim, again and again and again?

When the mere topic of God/religion comes up there is an immediate knee jerk response of anger and contempt. AC, who is in my estimation a pretty bright cat, was caps lock shouting at Beans about “your God” and “your Bible” after Beans had expressly stated that he didn’t subscribe to any particular religion at all. If that isn’t an example of a passionate belief system distorting one’s views, I don’t know what is.

People do horrible shit to each other, period. They may do this horrible shit in the name of religion, politics, patriotism, capitalism, nationalism, socialism, and who has the better soccer team. It doesn’t matter. It’s not a reason, it’s an excuse. Mostly, people do horrible shit to each other when they see their “group” as being other and better than someone else’.

If you don’t think many atheists have a strong tendency to see their group as better than, smarter than and generally superior to the “religious types” and their “fairy tale views”, I suggest you go back and read some of your own posts.