When You Should Shoot Back!

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
21

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Loose Tool wrote:
Professor X wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Professor X wrote:
How many people go to church with a gun in their pocket even if they own several guns?

I was down in AZ and the old-timers carry their sidearms with them everywhere. At first it was kind of weird but I didn’t see any random shootings the whole week I was down there.

Well, to my knowledge, it is still weird around here and I live in Texas. That church was attacked like a military advance meaning the only people who would be prepared for something like that are possible non active duty soldiers in this country. They had grenades. No matter what, someone was going to get hurt.

I am split on gun control because I know most of the same people bragging about their gun ownership are NOT trained like soldiers and mostly only have experience on a gun range if that.

I agree that the criminals are not restricted by gun laws, however, just as that church was possibly saved by one man with a gun, there is also the potential of people not as well trained doing a hell of alot more harm than good.

I am not the type who believes most people on the planet are competent.

I guess my solution would be mandatory gun training on a pre-determined satisfactory level.

It’s better to have spent money on one gun and an intense training course than any collection of guns and no training to use them. A single gun with mindset and skill beats a closet full of guns any day.

I agree and that is what I’m getting at. We are weapons trained even as medical staff before we deploy. I see random people bragging about their guns when I know for a fact that would be out of breath and slow to react if they were actually in the heat of a situation.

There are people who can’t even fucking talk on their cell phone and drive well at the same time yet we think EVERYONE is capable of owning a weapon that can kill you that easily?

QFT. A lot of gun nuts tend to be pretty out of shape and untrained.

It’s not the gun that makes the difference, it’s the man using it. [/quote]

The ‘gun nuts’ may be out of shape and poorly trained but they’re not even close to the average gun owner/user. I would guess the ratio of responsible well-trained hunters to irresponsible poorly (even by the military) trained gun nuts is about 5:1.

22

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

People that do not train to use deadly force are no match for those that have.
[/quote]

Training can only instill discipline. Discipline is useless without intent.

“If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do… the body is never tired if the mind is not tired.”

“All men are timid on entering any fight. Whether it is the first or the last fight, all of us are timid. Cowards are those who let their timidity get the better of their manhood.”
-General George S. Patton

23

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Otep wrote:

Did you read the wikipedia article? The attackers came in with assualt rifles and grenades. You see this as a reason we need less gun control in the world?

I’ll grant you they were scared away by a man with a .38 pistol, but this would seem to support proponents of gun control, wouldn’t it? That small arms are a deterrent, and large arms are… well… used for domestic terrorism?

What you may fail to realize, Otep, is that in South Africa, semi-automatic centerfire rifles have been illegal for decades. Gun control did not prevent these terrorists from obtaining their weapons.

Furthermore, understand that these were not your run-of-the-mill criminals. These were well-funded, well-equipped terrorists using military weapons: the R4 is the South African equivalent of the American M-16.

If they had been carrying cheap Kalashnikovs gotten from Botswana or wherever, it would be one thing, but the fact that they were carrying R4s hints to me that the government may have been directly or indirectly complicit in this action.

There are four possibilities for how these rifles ended up in the APLA’s hands. A) They stole them from a government armory; B) they bought them from corrupt military personnel; C) their ranks include deserters from the South African army, who took their weapons with them; or D) they were supplied by the government.

The other thing about this incident that hasn’t been mentioned is that it was without question a racially-motivated crime. Sabelo Phama, the leader of the APLA, has publicly declared that he would “aim his guns at children, to hurt whites where it hurts most.”

The current South African government has seen little need to control guns aimed at white children.[/quote]

The SADF and SAP armories (The R4,R5 are all used by both services)have for many,many years been rather…porous.And corrupt.

And the weapons are available fairly easily on the black market.A short drive through Mozambique will yield any manner of weaponry,from AK’s to the occasional Dragunov.An AK can run you as cheap as a used pair of shoes.

In SA itself they are fairly freely available,just not as cheap.

While licenses for R4/5 were available to civilians,it was not easy to get unless you were a farmer or in a rural environment.

Other than that,the white civilian population of SA was and continues to be,fairly heavily armed.Though now,the screws are being tightened to a one man,one gun scenario.So it won’t remain that way for long.

And for the record,A close female friend of mine was in the Church when it all went down.She was unhurt.

24

And just to clarify my position on the “guns aimed at whites” statement,the one thing about SA that continually amazes me is that there is not, and has not been more,violence towards whites.

25

[quote]Professor X wrote:
How many people go to church with a gun in their pocket even if they own several guns?[/quote]

I live in New Jersey and am a law enforcement officer, I wear my off duty(glock 27) everywhere I go when I leave my house. Every Sunday to church included.

26

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Loose Tool wrote:
Professor X wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Professor X wrote:
How many people go to church with a gun in their pocket even if they own several guns?

I was down in AZ and the old-timers carry their sidearms with them everywhere. At first it was kind of weird but I didn’t see any random shootings the whole week I was down there.

Well, to my knowledge, it is still weird around here and I live in Texas. That church was attacked like a military advance meaning the only people who would be prepared for something like that are possible non active duty soldiers in this country. They had grenades. No matter what, someone was going to get hurt.

I am split on gun control because I know most of the same people bragging about their gun ownership are NOT trained like soldiers and mostly only have experience on a gun range if that.

I agree that the criminals are not restricted by gun laws, however, just as that church was possibly saved by one man with a gun, there is also the potential of people not as well trained doing a hell of alot more harm than good.

I am not the type who believes most people on the planet are competent.

I guess my solution would be mandatory gun training on a pre-determined satisfactory level.

It’s better to have spent money on one gun and an intense training course than any collection of guns and no training to use them. A single gun with mindset and skill beats a closet full of guns any day.

I agree and that is what I’m getting at. We are weapons trained even as medical staff before we deploy. I see random people bragging about their guns when I know for a fact that would be out of breath and slow to react if they were actually in the heat of a situation.

There are people who can’t even fucking talk on their cell phone and drive well at the same time yet we think EVERYONE is capable of owning a weapon that can kill you that easily?

QFT. A lot of gun nuts tend to be pretty out of shape and untrained.

It’s not the gun that makes the difference, it’s the man using it. [/quote]

I want to make clear the distinction between trained to use a gun and fitness. Those who lack even a minimal level of fitness whether through age, frailty or even sedentary habits, can still be very capable with a gun.

In fact, there’s an argument to be made that it’s the weakest in society that stand the most to gain from some training and a warrior (versus a victim’s) mindset. It doesn’t take aerobic ability to defend ones self with a gun.

27

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:
And just to clarify my position on the “guns aimed at whites” statement,the one thing about SA that continually amazes me is that there is not, and has not been more,violence towards whites.

[/quote]

It’s amazing how different the perspective is from people who actually live there…and people who hear about it from another country.

28

[quote]
I want to make clear the distinction between trained to use a gun and fitness. Those who lack even a minimal level of fitness whether through age, frailty or even sedentary habits, can still be very capable with a gun.[/quote]

I was referring to both. Ask a lot of gun owners how many tactical pistol/shotgun/rifle classes they’ve taken. crickets

29

Even though I agree with alot of some of you guys’ arguements I still think alot of people would be better off defening themselves with a gun. I say that because I wouldnt want to go up against a hardend criminal who’s had time to get “swole” in prison and my be on some drug like coke, crack, or meth.

They tend to increase the users tolerance to pain. Plus, want if there’s more than one them.

30

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:

I want to make clear the distinction between trained to use a gun and fitness. Those who lack even a minimal level of fitness whether through age, frailty or even sedentary habits, can still be very capable with a gun.

I was referring to both. Ask a lot of gun owners how many tactical pistol/shotgun/rifle classes they’ve taken. crickets[/quote]

Taking a good course can be a wake up. This course is on my wish list:

[i]May 14-15, 2009
Zero To Five Feet - Pistol Gunfighting
Houston, TX

This revolutionary class focuses on integrating the pistol into the fight at zero to five feet. This is what some trainers call “The Hole” and their entire perspective is to “Get Out Of The Hole”.

We don’t worry about “getting out of the hole” because the reality of it is that you won’t. Instead, we get comfortable in there…we set up a nice cozy camp there and learn to thrive where other men fear to walk.

We make the other guy want to get out of the hole he finds himself in as we start to rip his head right off his shoulders. This will be a very thorough study on how to prevail and not get killed at this distance interval.

We will do a great deal of technical work to ingrain the correct skills and then work them extensively via force on force exercises. You have never seen training and information like this before.

While I do want to make sure guys are in reasonable condition to handle this, you don’t need to be a hard core athlete to do this. We will play hard…but within reason for the attendees we normally have in class.

Some Topics:

* Dealing against the drawn gun. Bad guy pointing in on you. What are all the options? We will look at everything from running away, to drawing and killing him, stabbing him with a knife, to disarming him and shooting him with his own gun.

* Dealing against the drawn knife. Both from "hold up" type situations to actual attacks. You will deal with them with the gun in hand (this one is really cool), and with empty hands, leading into a draw and shots as part of the fight.

* Dealing with a fight in confined areas such as hallways, elevators, phone booths and cars. All empty handed, and with weapons and with one leading to the other. (Props will be used as the range allows)

* Dealing with more than one bad guy. How to position and maneuver to deny them the advantage, as well as how to immediately escalate and take them out.

* The combined use of various tools such as knife and gun, knife and light, light and gun, gun and stick. Not only the how, but the why as well.

These and other topics will make this one of the hottest classes available to civilian operators.

This class is taught by Gabe Suarez.

Duration: 2 Days 9:00 AM to 5:00 PM
Prerequisites: Students must be in reasonable physical condition and have a good understanding of firearms safety

Ammunition: Approximately 300 rounds (minimum) - Factory Loaded FMJ Ammo Only Please.

Equipment: Pistol, holster, at least two magazines, and the usual range safety gear (ear and eye protection). Bring an airsoft pistol with the necessary gear (pellets, facemask, etc. - all of it is available at http://www.onesourcetactical.com)

Location: Private Range in Katy, TX (just outside of Houston, TX)

Instructor: Gabe Suarez[/i]

http://www.suarezinternationalstore.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=567

31

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:

I want to make clear the distinction between trained to use a gun and fitness. Those who lack even a minimal level of fitness whether through age, frailty or even sedentary habits, can still be very capable with a gun.

I was referring to both. Ask a lot of gun owners how many tactical pistol/shotgun/rifle classes they’ve taken. crickets[/quote]

Also, while we can debate how “in shape” someone has to be, in the scenario that started this thread, some obese average looking guy with a .38 who gets winded getting out of bed is not going to be as much of a hero as he probably thinks he will be.

I think some of you underestimate just how weakly prepared for much of anything most people are.

Everyone sees themselves as an action hero before the shit goes down. I have the opinion that very few are truly ready for action when it pops off even if they did attend a gun range back in 1997 and talk about guns at every given opportunity.

32

[quote]Professor X wrote:
How many people go to church with a gun in their pocket even if they own several guns?[/quote]

My dad. It’s in a holster, though, not his pocket.

I probably would if I still lived in Texas.

33

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Well, to my knowledge, it is still weird around here and I live in Texas. That church was attacked like a military advance meaning the only people who would be prepared for something like that are possible non active duty soldiers in this country. They had grenades. No matter what, someone was going to get hurt.

I am split on gun control because I know most of the same people bragging about their gun ownership are NOT trained like soldiers and mostly only have experience on a gun range if that.

I agree that the criminals are not restricted by gun laws, however, just as that church was possibly saved by one man with a gun, there is also the potential of people not as well trained doing a hell of alot more harm than good.

I am not the type who believes most people on the planet are competent.

I guess my solution would be mandatory gun training on a pre-determined satisfactory level.[/quote]

I would tend to agree with this position. I am also not the type to believe most people are competent at all, and agree training is necessary. I’m not so split on gun control though, I am not a fan of the G-men telling me what I can and can’t a) do b) put into my body (unless it presents a clear and present societal danger) c) say that’s non-PC. List goes on.

The thing is, it’s precisely BECAUSE I don’t believe people are competent that I want guns easily available to me–I know I’M competent, so I’d rather rely on myself most times.

I never used to be small “l” libertarian, but I’m leaning more that way every day because the bureaucracy is pissing me off with it’s ineptitude. I have less trust in the gov’t bureaucrats doing anything well than I do in other people doing anything well, which is saying something. Well, most things–some it’s very good at.

34

[quote]Professor X wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:

I want to make clear the distinction between trained to use a gun and fitness. Those who lack even a minimal level of fitness whether through age, frailty or even sedentary habits, can still be very capable with a gun.

I was referring to both. Ask a lot of gun owners how many tactical pistol/shotgun/rifle classes they’ve taken. crickets

Also, while we can debate how “in shape” someone has to be, in the scenario that started this thread, some obese average looking guy with a .38 who gets winded getting out of bed is not going to be as much of a hero as he probably thinks he will be.

I think some of you underestimate just how weakly prepared for much of anything most people are.

Everyone sees themselves as an action hero before the shit goes down. I have the opinion that very few are truly ready for action when it pops off even if they did attend a gun range back in 1997 and talk about guns at every given opportunity.[/quote]

At the upper end of the quality scale of gunslingers, we have SEALs and the like. These are all in good shape, have superior genetics (look at the drop-out rate for their training), mindset and training.

Towards the lower end, we have the out-of-shape civilian gun owner with no training and who has given no thought to what he would do when a criminal breaks in at night.

I would consider myself somewhere in the “consciously incompetent” range, where my home defense plan basically involves low amounts of manual dexterity, a shotgun and an ambush of the criminal as he walks through the fatal funnel (an interior door).

I’ve taken classes and put some fore-thought into it (high powered flashlight on the nightstand, shotgun kept within reach and “cruiser ready”). Mostly, I’m inconspicuous and don’t own anything expensive, so I consider my chances of using any training to be nil.

I think this is the most important thing: being inconspicuous and making sure things are locked. Honestly, I could defend my apartment with a baseball bat as the layout is so disadvantageous to a criminal trying to break in and he would have to make a lot of noise to do so.

35

[quote]Professor X wrote:
How many people go to church with a gun in their pocket even if they own several guns?[/quote]

I have a concealed carry permit and I will carry it legally everywhere I am allowed. church included. It’s actually how most trainers would like you to do it.

You never know when you’re going to need something you might never need. The only time I will not carry a gun is when I will drink any alcohol, no matter how small.

36

[quote]Professor X wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:

I want to make clear the distinction between trained to use a gun and fitness. Those who lack even a minimal level of fitness whether through age, frailty or even sedentary habits, can still be very capable with a gun.

I was referring to both. Ask a lot of gun owners how many tactical pistol/shotgun/rifle classes they’ve taken. crickets

Also, while we can debate how “in shape” someone has to be, in the scenario that started this thread, some obese average looking guy with a .38 who gets winded getting out of bed is not going to be as much of a hero as he probably thinks he will be.

I think some of you underestimate just how weakly prepared for much of anything most people are.

Everyone sees themselves as an action hero before the shit goes down. I have the opinion that very few are truly ready for action when it pops off even if they did attend a gun range back in 1997 and talk about guns at every given opportunity.[/quote]

Many guys I know who carry regularly are very well trained and quite dangerous in a good way. I took self defense formally training from a dentist. This man is very skilled and has taken many courses in actually gun self defense training from Massad Ayoob. He actually won the shoot off in LFI 1 against secret service men, FBI, and state policemen,

Another friend won the first National Tactical pistol shooting championship back in the early nineties. I could go on a lot more, but you get the picture.

As for me, I can handle a gun well, shotgun better, and I’m at my best with a rifle. Us PA boys shoot pretty well. At least the guys I hunt and shoot with.

37

i have a concealed carry license…I carry wherever TX laws permit me to carry…I’ve taken numerous tactical shooting classes for personal reasons…and for my career at the time.

It was prohibited by in TX to carry in churches and other places of worship…but was changed around 1999…I think…not sure.

But if a church actually post signs prohibiting weapons…you’re unlawfully carrying a weapon if you violate their signs.

I live where the event that actually brought about the “movement” to lawful carry a concealed weapon in the U.S…particularly Texas.

Luby’s Massacre:

39

[quote]Loose Tool wrote:
Exactly.

Another good reason, closer to home (Ft Worth) and more recent (10/17/08):

http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/wfaa/latestnews/stories/wfaa081017_wz_ambush.11fbdae6e.html

[/quote]

Good point. Only in the US can you buy your tools in a shop when your job is to rob people at gunpoint.

40

[quote]Wreckless wrote:
Loose Tool wrote:
Exactly.

Another good reason, closer to home (Ft Worth) and more recent (10/17/08):

http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/wfaa/latestnews/stories/wfaa081017_wz_ambush.11fbdae6e.html

Good point. Only in the US can you buy your tools in a shop when your job is to rob people at gunpoint.

[/quote]

Not quite sure what your point is. But convicted felons can’t legally buy guns in the US. Somehow they manage to get their hands on them anyway. Go figure.