When to Eat Carbs for Size?

Nutrition
21

[quote]WestCoast7 wrote:

[quote]Stronghold wrote:

[quote]WestCoast7 wrote:

[quote]Stronghold wrote:

  1. Splitting meals into p+f and p+c is a waste of time and based on flawed understanding of physiology. Even Berardi (who came up with it in the first place) doesn’t do that anymore and admits he was wrong about it.
    [/quote]

Is this true? I still stick to either P+C or P+F meals, and would love to know if that’s been proven to be outdated or simply a waste of time.[/quote]

I can’t find it right now, I’ll post it later if I can find it.

I’ve seen some research that indicates that consumption of fats doesn’t interfere with glycogen synthesis post workout, but it’s late and I don’t feel like finding it right now. I’ll look tomorrow.

From a practical standpoint, if you’re eating at regular intervals, all of that food is going to get mixed up in the gut anyways. If you eat a p+c meal at 12 and at 3 have a p+f meal, your body is still digesting and absorbing the carb meal while it begins digesting and absorbing the fat meal. Since larger meals take many hours to digest, this holds true even for people eating with lower frequencies (ie 3 meals/day).

In the end, it doesn’t really matter. There are untold thousands of people who have gotten and stayed very lean and healthy while combining carbs and fats. McDonald gives a pretty good explanation for why it’s a waste of time on his forum, I’ll let you practice your Google-Fu to find that one…“combining carbs and fats in one meal”.[/quote]

I refuse to practice my Google-Fu. I’ll wait for the link post.

Your logic does make sense though.[/quote]

It’s on his website, so I’m not going to anger the mods and link to it from here. You’ll have to google-fu, but the search term I gave you brings it up as the first result.

Most of the information regarding fat intake post workout was in AA’s research review and I don’t have that in front of me right now. For some “real world” application of that though, I know Shelby adds macadamia nut oil to his post workout shakes.

Here’s a study looking at fat oxidation and DNL with carbohydrate load following resistance training:

22

Nutrtion info I’ve learned this year:

1- there is something to be said about simply “eating within your macros”. So if you wanna get 40g carbs from brown rice or oatmeal or from poptarts, it really doesn’t matter (Thanks Skip).

2- don’t worry about eating carbs and fats together. SH more comprehensive info.

In response to the OP, use them when you need them if you’re predisposed to getting fat and minimizing additional fat gain. If you’re a natural ecto and pretty lean, you have some more leeway.

ok i’m done.

23

^ I agree with what bug says.

Load up on carbs around your workout (I’m talking 100 pre, 100 during, 100 post) or more, and slowly increase them throughout the day over time until you feel that you are putting on too much fat. That’s what I’d do, but I would advise experimenting and finding what amounts work for you.

24

edit - Great posts above from Stronghold.

And here’s some quotes from Dr Berardi:

Q: Be that as it may, are you still invoking some form of PC/PF eating?

[quote]A: I am, sort of. But sort of not as well. Let me explain…

Nowadays, my ideas revolve more around the concept of “nutrient timing” or the notion that different nutrients are tolerated better or worse during certain times of the day. Take carbs, for example. Carbohydrate tolerance (including insulin sensitivity or glucose disposal) is best during and after training. And this has been shown in both healthy and diabetic populations.

From this, in general, I recommend that higher carb meals are eaten post-exercise while lower carb meals are eaten the rest of the day. Functionally, this means that you’ll be eating higher protein and carb meals with a lower fat content (call them P+C meals if you like) during and after training. And you’ll be eating higher protein and fat meals with a lower carb content (call them P+F meals if you like) during the rest of the day.

So, I guess this ends up being food combining of a sort. But I think it’s more in the realm of nutrient timing than food combining. Regardless of what you call it - this strategy works very, very well…" [/quote]

[quote]“Do you have a copy of PN? If so, you’ll see that things aren’t that strict with respect to PC/PF. The time of day relative to the workout determines whether you want more C or F.”

“Indeed, this has become a hot button surrounding my nutrition ideas and it’s oddly so since I recommended this approach in exactly 1 article written about 5 years ago. For my most updated and comprehensive approach to nutrition, read through Precision Nutrition. (Which I’m assuming you own). Indeed, you won’t find PN skewed toward the P+C or P+F approach… Instead, you’ll find that I recommend higher protein and carb meals post exercise and meals higher in proteins and fats the rest of the day. This isn’t “voodoo science” as it’s been called or “overly simplistic” in any way. It’s based on when the body utilizes nutrients most effectively (i.e. higher carb tolerance post-exercise). However, just a cursory glance at PN and GN will show that we’re not afraid of fats and carbs during the same meal. We just don’t want to recommend very high carb and very high fat intakes concurrently.”[/quote]

25

[quote]MODOK wrote:
The P+C/ P+F thing is a perfect example of extrapolating a logic stream out until the original concept no longer is scientifically sound.

“You want to eat carbs at training time and have a high insulin response from them”

turns into:

" Ok, fat mutes insulin response" but " I need fat in my diet" so “I will separate carbs and fat”… the stream continues on until you get to P+C/P+F philosophy for your entire nutrition plan.

Mixed meals are fine. [/quote]

So in short, place your higher carb meals around your training window?

26

[quote]Stronghold wrote:

[quote]WestCoast7 wrote:

[quote]Stronghold wrote:

[quote]WestCoast7 wrote:

[quote]Stronghold wrote:

  1. Splitting meals into p+f and p+c is a waste of time and based on flawed understanding of physiology. Even Berardi (who came up with it in the first place) doesn’t do that anymore and admits he was wrong about it.
    [/quote]

Is this true? I still stick to either P+C or P+F meals, and would love to know if that’s been proven to be outdated or simply a waste of time.[/quote]

I can’t find it right now, I’ll post it later if I can find it.

I’ve seen some research that indicates that consumption of fats doesn’t interfere with glycogen synthesis post workout, but it’s late and I don’t feel like finding it right now. I’ll look tomorrow.

From a practical standpoint, if you’re eating at regular intervals, all of that food is going to get mixed up in the gut anyways. If you eat a p+c meal at 12 and at 3 have a p+f meal, your body is still digesting and absorbing the carb meal while it begins digesting and absorbing the fat meal. Since larger meals take many hours to digest, this holds true even for people eating with lower frequencies (ie 3 meals/day).

In the end, it doesn’t really matter. There are untold thousands of people who have gotten and stayed very lean and healthy while combining carbs and fats. McDonald gives a pretty good explanation for why it’s a waste of time on his forum, I’ll let you practice your Google-Fu to find that one…“combining carbs and fats in one meal”.[/quote]

I refuse to practice my Google-Fu. I’ll wait for the link post.

Your logic does make sense though.[/quote]

It’s on his website, so I’m not going to anger the mods and link to it from here. You’ll have to google-fu, but the search term I gave you brings it up as the first result.

Most of the information regarding fat intake post workout was in AA’s research review and I don’t have that in front of me right now. For some “real world” application of that though, I know Shelby adds macadamia nut oil to his post workout shakes.

Here’s a study looking at fat oxidation and DNL with carbohydrate load following resistance training:

Thanks SH, appreciate it mucho.

27

[quote]MODOK wrote:
The P+C/ P+F thing is a perfect example of extrapolating a logic stream out until the original concept no longer is scientifically sound.

“You want to eat carbs at training time and have a high insulin response from them”

turns into:

" Ok, fat mutes insulin response" but " I need fat in my diet" so “I will separate carbs and fat”… the stream continues on until you get to P+C/P+F philosophy for your entire nutrition plan.

Mixed meals are fine. [/quote]

Agreed, but P+C/P+F CAN be a successful diet plan if not necessarily for the reasons listed.

If you have to limit one out of three macronutrients per meal, you’ll end up eating less calories without even trying. Even if you eat more of the other two to make up for it, you will often end up at a deficit anyway.

Any success with this “diet plan” is probably because of this.

28

[quote]Proud_Virgin wrote:

[quote]MODOK wrote:
The P+C/ P+F thing is a perfect example of extrapolating a logic stream out until the original concept no longer is scientifically sound.

“You want to eat carbs at training time and have a high insulin response from them”

turns into:

" Ok, fat mutes insulin response" but " I need fat in my diet" so “I will separate carbs and fat”… the stream continues on until you get to P+C/P+F philosophy for your entire nutrition plan.

Mixed meals are fine. [/quote]

Agreed, but P+C/P+F CAN be a successful diet plan if not necessarily for the reasons listed.

If you have to limit one out of three macronutrients per meal, you’ll end up eating less calories without even trying. Even if you eat more of the other two to make up for it, you will often end up at a deficit anyway.

Any success with this “diet plan” is probably because of this.
[/quote]

No one’s saying you can’t diet successfully with food combining, just that it’s not necessary or beneficial so it’s a waste of time and energy (both of which are at more of a premium when you’re restricting your food intake).