What would justify you fighting outside the ring or cage, aside from the guy coming directly at you?
I will take whatever measures are neccessary until the threat no longer exists …
Someone getting hurt by someone else.
I couldn’t miss an opportunity to kick someone while they’re down.
Self defense and/or helping someone. NOT a challenge from some dude in a bar. To quote Rory Miller, ‘fights are stupid and I don’t do them.’
It’s a somewhat complicated question because there are so many factors that go into it; but as an average civilian I would say that physical force/violence is legally and morally justified when:
-the attacker has expressed (either verbally or physically) the intent to do you or an innocent that you are responsible for serious bodily harm
-the attacker has the ability to inflict such harm on yourself/the innocent
-the attacker can physically access you/the innocent to do such harm
-you have attempted unsuccessfully to utilize verbal and postural de-escalation measures to try to avoid things going physical or have not been given the opportunity to do so
-you cannot flee the scene (either due to environmental factors/lack of an accessible escape route or due to being responsible for the saftey of an innocent)
Now, there are also the laws of your state/province/country regarding self defense and use of force to consider, but in general (at least in the US) if all of the above criteria are met then any lawyer worth his/her salt is going to be able to convince most jury’s or judges/magistrates that your use of force was justified in defending yourself.
Again, there are other details and stipulations to consider, but this is the simplest “blanket” answer that I can give you regarding this topic.
When a man is about to hit a woman (yelling, getting in her face) or has hit her already. That just rubs me the wrong way in my book.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
It’s a somewhat complicated question because there are so many factors that go into it; but as an average civilian I would say that physical force/violence is legally and morally justified when:
-the attacker has expressed (either verbally or physically) the intent to do you or an innocent that you are responsible for serious bodily harm
-the attacker has the ability to inflict such harm on yourself/the innocent
-the attacker can physically access you/the innocent to do such harm
-you have attempted unsuccessfully to utilize verbal and postural de-escalation measures to try to avoid things going physical or have not been given the opportunity to do so
-you cannot flee the scene (either due to environmental factors/lack of an accessible escape route or due to being responsible for the saftey of an innocent)
Now, there are also the laws of your state/province/country regarding self defense and use of force to consider, but in general (at least in the US) if all of the above criteria are met then any lawyer worth his/her salt is going to be able to convince most jury’s or judges/magistrates that your use of force was justified in defending yourself.
Again, there are other details and stipulations to consider, but this is the simplest “blanket” answer that I can give you regarding this topic.[/quote]
I agree with all of this.
Although my shorter personal answer is, “Whenever someone else’s hands go on me.”
That’s my trigger - I make the choice to commit to violence before that, and the final confirmation of that attack is their forward movement to put their hands on me, or their doing so. At that point, I’m hitting.
I do not hit without that. I used to. But I don’t anymore.
[quote]David98 wrote:
When a man is about to hit a woman (yelling, getting in her face) or has hit her already. That just rubs me the wrong way in my book.[/quote]
I used to be like that, until I saw how very often stepping in between fighting couples - even if they’re physically going at it - gets you blamed as the guy causing trouble when the cops show up.
Now, I just call the cops and keep moving, unless he’s really teeing off.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]David98 wrote:
When a man is about to hit a woman (yelling, getting in her face) or has hit her already. That just rubs me the wrong way in my book.[/quote]
I used to be like that, until I saw how very often stepping in between fighting couples - even if they’re physically going at it - gets you blamed as the guy causing trouble when the cops show up.
Now, I just call the cops and keep moving, unless he’s really teeing off.[/quote]
I am not joking when I say I want a group of folks and to put more dudes on the “victim” than the victimizer.
You know the only time you want to cock your arm back before you fire your left straight?
When you need to “accidently” run your elbow into someone who is trying to jump on your back screaming “DON’T YOU HURT HIM!!!” because you thought you were doing a good deed and wound up so far into the rabbit hole of crazy/dysfunction that the Mad Hatter is going to be doing pad work for you at the gym.
Regards,
Robert A
[quote]Jarvan wrote:
What would justify you fighting outside the ring or cage, aside from the guy coming directly at you?[/quote]
My Answer:
When the forseable results of using force/violence are more appealing to you than the predicted results of not doing so. So essentially when it furthers your interests.
Longer Explanation/No I am not Trolling:
I am keeping this amoral. Hopefully we are making ALL our decisions informed by our morality, Grand Strategy(overall goals), strategy(immediate objectives) prudence(legal considerations, costs, tactical issues, ect.). I think a lot of folks, not saying you are one of them, screw up the violence/self defense/use of force paradigm by coming up with scenarios where fighting is obvious and then experiencing an “off scenario moment” or trying to ram reality into a scenario. Waiting too long to use violence or centerpunching a non threat are both very bad.
If I have to make a guideline I want it to be flexible enough to be useful. I also want to account for different people/goals. A ten year old kid facing a “fight” is not in the same place as someone for whom losing means getting dressed up as a road cone and beheaded on video. Only “when they are coming at you” or “put hands on you” may be sage advice for the first, and bad council for the second. Also use of force can be professional as well. Those who work in mental health may need to use fore proactively as opposed to defensively in order to restrain and treat a patient. Cops may have to actively hunt down and use force of people. Military may need to kill, and hopefully not only defensively. I wanted something that fit those cases as well as my own.
So, when it furthers your interests. i.e. when the alternatives are less attractive.
Regards,
Robert A
[quote]Jarvan wrote:
What would justify you fighting outside the ring or cage, aside from the guy coming directly at you?[/quote]
The guy coming directly at my loved ones.
I dont know, call me an immature young man, but based on the experiences ive had in the past two years alone, I’m putting a fist into some pricks face as soon as I’m almost sure a fight is going to develop.
Ive had way too many friends get glassed or king hit by some dickhead as they were trying to walk away or “defuse” the situation to take some moral high ground where you shouldn’t “sucker” punch someone. Ive had guys try to start fights with me in clubs for - i dont know why. They need to dominate someone?? To me thats the kind of cocksucker who needs to get embarrassed in front a room of people so he modifies his behavior in the future
YMMV though.
[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:
I dont know, call me an immature young man, but based on the experiences ive had in the past two years alone, I’m putting a fist into some pricks face as soon as I’m almost sure a fight is going to develop.
Ive had way too many friends get glassed or king hit by some dickhead as they were trying to walk away or “defuse” the situation to take some moral high ground where you shouldn’t “sucker” punch someone. Ive had guys try to start fights with me in clubs for - i dont know why. They need to dominate someone?? To me thats the kind of cocksucker who needs to get embarrassed in front a room of people so he modifies his behavior in the future
YMMV though.[/quote]
I think there’s a lot of truth in this, and it matches a bit with what I see increasingly. We’re probably the softest generation in the history of the human race, in terms of luxuries, ease of life, lack of threats to our longevity, degree of average personal toughness etc. In a sane world, this would have brought humility and a degree of introspection to your average young man. Instead, he goes and does a bro split, gets swole, and think it makes him a warrior. There are a lot of overgrown, physically large, man babies, with no self-discipline, self-respect, or honour about now, and it is becoming more dangerous to stay humble and try to defuse/walk away.
A lot of these guys’ egos can’t take the small victory of someone walking away, or respectfully telling them they have no desire to fight. They have to impose themselves, and be seen to be the big man. It makes for quite a quandary, as these guys are not worth a night in the cells, or a conviction, yet they leave you very little opportunity to walk away. Knowing when the situation arises which way it is likely to go, buys you the extra time to reliably get in the first punch, however, it also, ironically, puts you in a much weaker position. Recognising the signs of certain trouble could increasingly lead to situations where you find yourself on weaker legal ground, for effectively stopping the trouble in its tracks well in advance of the trouble having the chance to manifest itself on your face.
I should add that this is my opinion from observation, rather than direct experience. I’ve not had to hit anyone in anger in quite a while now, and have lead an almost charmed life with my ability to avoid getting into any trouble. I do think that not getting sloppy, and being clear-eyed and well turned out, will do more to keep you from being seen as a victim than anything else.
The question itself is a good one, and I particularly like Robert and Sento’s responses. My own would be pretty similar.
That said, I think it is important to decide for yourself well before time, what your personal thresholds are. As someone once said ‘a man must have a code’. I think this is true, although much of what that might contain is beyond the scope of this thread, but might make a good thread of its own. The important thing with violence is that it very frequently has consequences, particularly in a well surveilled city like London. Denial of these consequences will make it hard to do what is necessary if and when the moment to do violence comes. Essentially, you must reconcile yourself to the fact that some things are worth the risk of doing jail time for, if that is what is necessary. Only you can decide what these things are for you.
For me, and this is not an exhaustive list, just indicative, there are a few situations where I will start swinging for the fences.
I have a few very close friends WHO ARE DISCIPLINED AND NOT INCLINED TO MAKE TROUBLE. If they are swinging, I’m swinging, no questions asked. I can say this confidently because a.) as already mentioned, if they are in trouble, it’s because that was the only choice b.) we recognise that all of us would do this for each other, and NONE OF US ABUSES THIS KNOWLEDGE. ie. none of us will court trouble if it presents itself just because we know we have backup.
Threat of harm to family - obvious
Break in at home - obvious
Someone vulnerable in trouble - I struggle with this one, because I’m not big on getting killed for strangers, but there are times when your conscience won’t let you ignore something, and it is better to accept this and confront it than deny it and hesitate.
There are a few others, but you get the idea.
Self defence is in many ways the tricky one, and you have to use a combination of lines in the sand, and instinct to navigate those waters. Here in the UK self-defense is essentially a matter of proportionality of response to the threat AS YOU PERCEIVED IT, not necessarily as it actually was. Dealing with the consequences depends on a huge number of factors (eg. on the same self defense charge, who fares better with the jury, a well turned out, polite, well spoken man, or a poorly dressed, surly, badly spoken bloke?). The point of this is that your lines in the sand, and the way you respond to perceived threats, may change depending on who is threatening you. EG. it’s all very well to say ‘putting hands on me crosses a line, and I’m swinging’, but if you’re a 13 stone boxer and the guy who pushes you is an 11 stone suit, and you bounce his head off the bar, there’s a pretty good chance you’re going to get slammed by the court. If the guy who pushes you is a 15 stone neanderthal with tattoos on his face and ‘kill’ tattood on his knuckles, you might very reasonably expect to convince a jury that near lethal force was necessary and that you needed to hit him repeatedly with a solid glass ashtray to keep yourself alive. Same action, but requiring very different reactions on your part.
I’m rambling again, forgive me, I’m out of practise.
[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:
The question itself is a good one, and I particularly like Robert and Sento’s responses. My own would be pretty similar.
That said, I think it is important to decide for yourself well before time, what your personal thresholds are. As someone once said ‘a man must have a code’. I think this is true, although much of what that might contain is beyond the scope of this thread, but might make a good thread of its own. The important thing with violence is that it very frequently has consequences, particularly in a well surveilled city like London. Denial of these consequences will make it hard to do what is necessary if and when the moment to do violence comes. Essentially, you must reconcile yourself to the fact that some things are worth the risk of doing jail time for, if that is what is necessary. Only you can decide what these things are for you.
For me, and this is not an exhaustive list, just indicative, there are a few situations where I will start swinging for the fences.
I have a few very close friends WHO ARE DISCIPLINED AND NOT INCLINED TO MAKE TROUBLE. If they are swinging, I’m swinging, no questions asked. I can say this confidently because a.) as already mentioned, if they are in trouble, it’s because that was the only choice b.) we recognise that all of us would do this for each other, and NONE OF US ABUSES THIS KNOWLEDGE. ie. none of us will court trouble if it presents itself just because we know we have backup.
Threat of harm to family - obvious
Break in at home - obvious
Someone vulnerable in trouble - I struggle with this one, because I’m not big on getting killed for strangers, but there are times when your conscience won’t let you ignore something, and it is better to accept this and confront it than deny it and hesitate.
There are a few others, but you get the idea.
Self defence is in many ways the tricky one, and you have to use a combination of lines in the sand, and instinct to navigate those waters. Here in the UK self-defense is essentially a matter of proportionality of response to the threat AS YOU PERCEIVED IT, not necessarily as it actually was. Dealing with the consequences depends on a huge number of factors (eg. on the same self defense charge, who fares better with the jury, a well turned out, polite, well spoken man, or a poorly dressed, surly, badly spoken bloke?). The point of this is that your lines in the sand, and the way you respond to perceived threats, may change depending on who is threatening you. EG. it’s all very well to say ‘putting hands on me crosses a line, and I’m swinging’, but if you’re a 13 stone boxer and the guy who pushes you is an 11 stone suit, and you bounce his head off the bar, there’s a pretty good chance you’re going to get slammed by the court. If the guy who pushes you is a 15 stone neanderthal with tattoos on his face and ‘kill’ tattood on his knuckles, you might very reasonably expect to convince a jury that near lethal force was necessary and that you needed to hit him repeatedly with a solid glass ashtray to keep yourself alive. Same action, but requiring very different reactions on your part.
I’m rambling again, forgive me, I’m out of practise.
[/quote]
No need to apologize. Solid post I might add.
I started this thread because I was involved in a scuffle (that I am not proud of) a couple weeks ago. I witnessed a man (5’10ish, 190lbs?) slap a lady in the face. She is all but 5’5, maybe 110lbs… As others have mentioned, I have very little patience for those who lay their hands on women or a defenseless person.
I don’t condone fight AT ALL in the streets, but I’ll say that the guy learned his lesson.
While I agree with you guys about the virtues of not being a “passive bystander” to violence perpetrated on women and I believe that if more people intervened that this would be a good thing, I must also point out that many battered women have deep emotional and psychological injuries which can sometimes cause them to physically attack their would be savior(s).
So, I’m not saying that you shouldn’t intervene if you see an abusive situation occurring, I’m just saying to stay on your toes and don’t automatically assume that the woman in the situation is going to thank you for saving her; she may wind up attacking you for hurting her boyfriend/husband, or even press legal charges against you. I really wish that this were not the case and that every woman who found herself in such an abusive relationship was truly looking and hoping for some hero to swoop in and save her from her abuser, but this unfortunately is not the case.
Again, I support intervention, but felt that it was important to raise awareness about the deeper psychological and emotional realities behind domestic violence, because as supporters of women and people who despise violence perpetrated against them (and other innocents) I feel we must also be aware of and fight the larger battle surrounding this topic.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
While I agree with you guys about the virtues of not being a “passive bystander” to violence perpetrated on women and I believe that if more people intervened that this would be a good thing, I must also point out that many battered women have deep emotional and psychological injuries which can sometimes cause them to physically attack their would be savior(s). So, I’m not saying that you shouldn’t intervene if you see an abusive situation occurring, I’m just saying to stay on your toes and don’t automatically assume that the woman in the situation is going to thank you for saving her; she may wind up attacking you for hurting her boyfriend/husband, or even press legal charges against you. I really wish that this were not the case and that every woman who found herself in such an abusive relationship was truly looking and hoping for some hero to swoop in and save her from her abuser, but this unfortunately is not the case.
Again, I support intervention, but felt that it was important to raise awareness about the deeper psychological and emotional realities behind domestic violence, because as supporters of women and people who despise violence perpetrated against them (and other innocents) I feel we must also be aware of and fight the larger battle surrounding this topic.[/quote]
I concur. If the girl that was assaulted wasn’t my friend, I would have handled it differently.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
While I agree with you guys about the virtues of not being a “passive bystander” to violence perpetrated on women and I believe that if more people intervened that this would be a good thing, I must also point out that many battered women have deep emotional and psychological injuries which can sometimes cause them to physically attack their would be savior(s).
So, I’m not saying that you shouldn’t intervene if you see an abusive situation occurring, I’m just saying to stay on your toes and don’t automatically assume that the woman in the situation is going to thank you for saving her; she may wind up attacking you for hurting her boyfriend/husband, or even press legal charges against you. I really wish that this were not the case and that every woman who found herself in such an abusive relationship was truly looking and hoping for some hero to swoop in and save her from her abuser, but this unfortunately is not the case.
Again, I support intervention, but felt that it was important to raise awareness about the deeper psychological and emotional realities behind domestic violence, because as supporters of women and people who despise violence perpetrated against them (and other innocents) I feel we must also be aware of and fight the larger battle surrounding this topic.[/quote]
I strongly agree. Hence my response to Irish’s post, though I may be a bit more cynical about the whole thing than either of you.
“Domestic” issues are going to be some of the most dangerous to ever insunuate yourself into, especially if you are private sector/not a cop.
The danger doesn’t end with the “abuser”. The victim can jump in and assault you. It doesn’t end that day either. A lot of “victims” are already doing mental gymnastics to support their situation, a little more bending and they are lining up to support whatever the “abuser” said. So you can quickly go from good samaritan to having a warrant out for assault.
Then there is the question of what you are trying to accomplish. Getting the misery to re-locate is attainable. You can get a violent couple tossed out of your place of business or home easily enough. I am really unsure you can intercede and make the victim any safer long term unless they are on board and proactive about it. They usually aren’t. It usually isn’t their first rodeo and for whatever reason they seem to keep going back, as you mentioned.
Someone even more jaded about this stuff than me described it as “The first time he beat her it was a felony. The third time, she was making a lifestyle choice.” Unfortunately the “victims” will often physically or legally attack whomever they perceive as threats to their family/unit. If they are willing to catch an ass kicking and misery be damn certain they are willing to put you through the same.
“I’m calling the police.” Followed by doing so may be the best course. If they leave together than choices were made. IF that creates an assault on you than handle that. If you have to get involved, try to have numbers on your side and no bullshit put the coldest hand you have on the “victim” and have them understand that the victim doesn’t get to move in on you.
Regards,
Robert A
First, I am sorry for your friend being in such a situation. I am glad you came out of it physically safe. I realize she is your friend, and I don’t know her. I am not trying to insinuate anything bad about her character, intellect, ect. I just want you to keep being safe.
You are in a position to learn a hell of a lot about your friend. If she was assaulted and she cuts all ties with the assailant THAN you not only did a good thing, but she did too. If he is still around in a week, or shows back up in a month or two than that is also confirmation of something.
As Sento mentioned a lot of women DO NOT leave abusive relationships right away, or ever. Many even seem to seek them out, or manage to make themselves most attractive to potential abusers. I am sure as hell not saying that is your friend, but for your sake please be on the lookout for signs that it is. Do not let someone else’s domestic misery buy you charges that blow up your life. Don’t catch a felony off this shit.
I am guessing he didn’t, unless the lesson was Jarvan can hurt me. Even that may have the addendum “when I’m not ready”.
I simply know that too many predatory assholes have found themselves on the wrong end of a dust up to believe one more is going to be entirely corrective. Prisons are full of folks who have lost plenty of fights and still sought prey.
I would also seriously watch your six. Petty, little men seek great retribution for small insults.
Stay safe.
Regards,
Robert A
[quote]Robert A wrote:
First, I am sorry for your friend being in such a situation. I am glad you came out of it physically safe. I realize she is your friend, and I don’t know her. I am not trying to insinuate anything bad about her character, intellect, ect. I just want you to keep being safe.
You are in a position to learn a hell of a lot about your friend. If she was assaulted and she cuts all ties with the assailant THAN you not only did a good thing, but she did too. If he is still around in a week, or shows back up in a month or two than that is also confirmation of something.
As Sento mentioned a lot of women DO NOT leave abusive relationships right away, or ever. Many even seem to seek them out, or manage to make themselves most attractive to potential abusers. I am sure as hell not saying that is your friend, but for your sake please be on the lookout for signs that it is. Do not let someone else’s domestic misery buy you charges that blow up your life. Don’t catch a felony off this shit.
I am guessing he didn’t, unless the lesson was Jarvan can hurt me. Even that may have the addendum “when I’m not ready”.
I simply know that too many predatory assholes have found themselves on the wrong end of a dust up to believe one more is going to be entirely corrective. Prisons are full of folks who have lost plenty of fights and still sought prey.
I would also seriously watch your six. Petty, little men seek great retribution for small insults.
Stay safe.
Regards,
Robert A[/quote]
LOL
I think much as been incorrectly assumed about the situation.
The man was a complete stranger in contrast to the girl who I’ve known for many years.
Somehow the story got veered in the direction of an abusive relationship, none of which pertains to what actually happened. Albeit, great insights therein.
I don’t try to police the world, thrusting my creed into people’s faces whenever I feel like. I’m more of the guy watching idiots go at it (verbally, physically) and smh. I don’t pay mind to it. It’s not a common occurrence, although it could be. There are many times in my life where I walked away even when I was struck/pushed. I walked away because the reason I was struck was stupid. I wasn’t hurt, and the guy obviously had no idea what he was doing. There was nothing to prove and there is never anything to prove in a fight (you reading this ISIS?).
On the other hand, I will defend my friends… if they themselves can’t do it.
And when I say that he learned his lesson, I don’t mean that the guy was forced to bite the curb. The scuffle ended when I put him in a precarious position where a lot of damage could have been done. And instead of pounding away, I asked him if he was done.
He gave me a bloody smile and agreed to squash it.
He even extended his hand out to me after I let him up.
I offered him humility that night, and I guess I’m hoping he thinks twice about his actions in the future.