[quote]tveddy wrote:
My guess would be that the reason you have trouble breathing is from having a full stomach. 5000 Calories/day will do that.[/quote]
I think you meant this kinda tongue in cheek, but I eat 5 grand a day and I have no issues along these lines. I also ride bikes with my daughter and roller blade a few times a week which I’m sure helps.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
tveddy wrote:
My guess would be that the reason you have trouble breathing is from having a full stomach. 5000 Calories/day will do that.
I think you meant this kinda tongue in cheek, but I eat 5 grand a day and I have no issues along these lines. I also ride bikes with my daughter and roller blade a few times a week which I’m sure helps.[/quote]
It was slightly tongue in cheek.
[quote]bmitch wrote:
id say the bulk should end when you can’t see your penis anymore[/quote]
Good rule of thumb!
In all seriousness though, who the hell cares when it’s time to stop “bulking.” It depends, like everything, on your goals. The only people that need to focus this much on bulking and cutting are bodybuilders (the ones that compete). Otherwise, just decide how fat YOU are willing to go or how lean you want to be.
[quote]playmaker08 wrote:
Ive been doing a bulk for about two years (with one small cut between that time). In this time period I have went from 170 to 242, down to 215, now currently at 237. At 242 I could barely see my abs, but since that intermediate cut I have a decent set of abs showing through.
I think bulking is alright as long as you keep the sugars low and keep your carbs in check. Bulking is not a reason to eat everything in sight, as it seems some people have mistaken it for that.
Bulking will also be different for each individual, I was very lean before I started bulking. This means I could afford a more lenient diet than someone who was not as lean.[/quote]
Given your prolific posting in the steroid forum, I am also going to venture that you are not natural.
I recently had a juiced to the gills member of my gym tell me to train harder and always stay in a caloric surplus. That way, I would not gain fat. Unfortunately, for a natural trainee, this is not an option, because if I train 4 times a week at my highest intensiveness, I will kill my endocrine system.
I take juiced trainees advice about “bulking” with a grain of salt.
[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Horazio wrote:
This guys says that unless you’re an elite athlete you still can put on some mass while loosing fat :
[/quote]
This guy is awesome.
[quote]FightingScott wrote:
Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Horazio wrote:
This guys says that unless you’re an elite athlete you still can put on some mass while loosing fat :
This guy is awesome. [/quote]
That short piece is a vast oversimplification and may or may not be true for as many different reasons as there are individuals to attempt to apply it to.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
That short piece is a vast oversimplification and may or may not be true for as many different reasons as there are individuals to attempt to apply it to.[/quote]
Thats the truth
It is also assuming way too much. It assumes that the athlete is eating perfectly, not just a deficeit, but also with the right nutrient timing and and macro ratios. It also doesnt give a timespan. I can lose fat and gain muscle at the same time (but there is no way I can sustain that trend very long at all).
[quote]scottiscool wrote:
FightingScott wrote:
The bulk ends when you surpass 12% bodyfat (You don’t have a six pack). People are most anabolic at a 10-12% bodyfat. The only reason pro bodybuilders gain so much weight out of season is because adding 6% of their own mass in fat is a LOT more ponds than a normal person would add if they gained 6% of their weight in fat.
When you cut bodyfat you lose protective fat your brain needs once you get around 5% and you risk sever organ damage and the possibility of becoming dangerously catabolic once you get under 3% bodyfat. I’m pretty sure Jay Cutler won last years Olympia being clamped at a little over 4% bodyfat.
You get to build a gut once your squat gets near 1100 and you need something else to bounce out of the hole with.
Of course, if you keep your bodyfat around the idea 10-12 percent and can attribute most of your gains to new lean muscle mass, then your bulking period might not stop for a few years.
Your post confuseses the hell out of me.
Yes I agree more people could stand to TRY to stay leaner during their gaining phases but just because some caliper says 12.1% does that mean I’m not anabolic anymore? If someone is gaining size and is still at a leanness they can be happy with I don’t see the need to shut it down and try to lose fat.
Then you talk about getting into really low bodyfat levels, why?
1100? How many people do you think can do that in the entire WORLD? And again, what does this have to do with what he’s asking?
The last part I agree with, but without the 10-12% numbers.[/quote]
The 10 to 12% number is far too confining but the basic concept is solid. There has been research that shows the higher your body fat percentage the more easily you gain fat while trying to gain muscle within a a gaining phase of caloric surplus. The opposite was also true that at a certain level of leanness it becomes easier to gain muscle and harder to gain fat.
This mostly applies to intermediate or advanced lifters because beginners can make incredible improvements in body composition by training hard and a clean basic bodybuilding diet. Thats what they should focus on first.
The basic premise isn’t to obsess over some inaccurate caliper reading but to find a body fat range for your own individual self where you find yourself gaining quality mass easily and fat gain is minimal.
I don’t use or need any type of body fat measurement device to tell me when I am lean or when I am fat. I have learned from experience that I make the best size and strength gains once my abs are at least a four pack but it tapers off once I start to see rolls on my upper abs when I sit down.
Some people might gain better a lot leaner some will do better fatter but it is certainly something that differs from each individual. Learn to use your instinct a mirror and a tape measure.
Bulking slightly past or even far past your own individual range where gains are near ideal isn’t going to stop progress and some swear this is the fastest route to serious size and strength.
It does have the obvious drawback of making you a fat ass that will have to diet longer at some point and there is no guarantee that you will get the size and strength you want faster than you would by staying in a more ideal fat range.
[quote]Synthesize wrote:
playmaker08 wrote:
Ive been doing a bulk for about two years (with one small cut between that time). In this time period I have went from 170 to 242, down to 215, now currently at 237. At 242 I could barely see my abs, but since that intermediate cut I have a decent set of abs showing through.
I think bulking is alright as long as you keep the sugars low and keep your carbs in check. Bulking is not a reason to eat everything in sight, as it seems some people have mistaken it for that.
Bulking will also be different for each individual, I was very lean before I started bulking. This means I could afford a more lenient diet than someone who was not as lean.
Given your prolific posting in the steroid forum, I am also going to venture that you are not natural.[/quote]
There is nothing in playmaker08’s post that is steroid specific. The principles are sound. Keep the sugars low and carbs in check. You have a problem with that? Starting lean will afford the trainee to be able to eat a less strict diet. You have an opinion that suggests otherwise?
[quote]I recently had a juiced to the gills member of my gym tell me to train harder and always stay in a caloric surplus. That way, I would not gain fat. Unfortunately, for a natural trainee, this is not an option, because if I train 4 times a week at my highest intensiveness, I will kill my endocrine system.
I take juiced trainees advice about “bulking” with a grain of salt.[/quote]
You’d do well to listen to dudes on gear. Their intensity is beyond anything you could imagine. They put in more work than you, they probably eat better than you and they are more serious than you in attaining goals.
Put your “better than them” attitude away. Four times a week with high intensity will kill your endocrine system? LOL You’ve got a lot to learn, junior.
[quote]JoeyD20 wrote:
In my opinion, when your relaxed gut sticks out further than your relaxed chest.[/quote]
I’ve never met anyone whos relaxed chest goes out further than they’re relaxed gut.
-dizzle
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Fat new guys, whatever that exactly means, but new guys who are clearly overweight shouldn’t worry about cutting, bulking, gaining blah blah blah. Just eat a reasonable amount of balanced quality food over six meals a day and work a basic program probably with some cardio and miraculous things will happen to them. Once they get a grip on where they are more specific goals will make sense.
[/quote]
Very good advice here.
Guys/girls need to be realistic with where they’re starting out in the game. I know I wasn’t and I figured it out recently.
For the past couple months my goal was to increase maximal strength, and if I gained size, so be it. I guess bulking is a good term. I figured that in order to help reach this goal, I needed to make sure I got plenty of food. I didn’t want my workouts to suffer due to lack of calories, right?
The problem with this is where I’m starting from. I am and have been close to 20%bf for as long as I can remember. My best lifts are pedestrian to say the least, and my relative strength wasn’t that great either. But since I thought I was so smart, I pressed on anyway.
What happened? I got some ok gains on my lifts (20lbs on bench and 35lbs on the deadlift), but I gained almost that amount in fat. I thought at first a lot of it was water weight from creatine. I stopped taking it, but the weight didn’t come back off. Plus I look like shit, and breathe heavy when I do anything physically demanding.
What did I learn? At this point in time a low volume training program combined with a caloric surplus and an otherwise sedentary lifestyle (deskjob) is ideal for me to turn into a complete fatty who’s slightly stronger. Now it’s back to the drawing board (HIIT time. Oh joy). I know I don’t have to change too much, but it feels like I pushed myself for nothing.
I guess the point I’m getting across is know where you are and what first steps you have to take. Like I wrote before, the quoted advice is very good.
(in respone to the relaxed chest post)
Have you seen people who workout?
If you are serious about getting bigger then getting bigger needs to be the focus. Any standard that focuses on fat or anything else is a recipe for sub maximal results at best and will have you mentally concentrating on the wrong goal. If people looking for size would just eat and train for that purpose they would find their optimum intake.
For me it is about about a one inch pinch off my abs. Any more fat gain than that does nothing more for my goals and any less finds me stalling. It may be more or less for different individuals, but they’ll never find out if fat is the focus.
I haven’t done cardio in months. It’d probably be a good idea, but I’ve got a tough enough time getting in the gym 4 times a week as it is. I think it’s due to the extra weight i’m carrying around. It’s probably only about 10-15 extra lbs, but that’s still enough to be noticeable aesthetically and aerobically.
5000 cals a day might have affected my cardio if they were clean cals, but i’m eating primarily fatty foods, like bacon, sausage, burgers, etc, so I’m never really completely full.
[quote]Epimetheus wrote:
I haven’t done cardio in months. It’d probably be a good idea, but I’ve got a tough enough time getting in the gym 4 times a week as it is. I think it’s due to the extra weight i’m carrying around. It’s probably only about 10-15 extra lbs, but that’s still enough to be noticeable aesthetically and aerobically.
5000 cals a day might have affected my cardio if they were clean cals, but i’m eating primarily fatty foods, like bacon, sausage, burgers, etc, so I’m never really completely full. [/quote]
Are you using the Anabolic Diet?
The whole point of bulking is to put on additional muscle mass, some additional fat mass is accepted as a side effect. I would say that a successful bulk is where you’re gaining twice as much muscle as fat, once you’re not doing that anymore it’s probably time to stop bulking and cut.
[quote]blue9steel wrote:
The whole point of bulking is to put on additional muscle mass, some additional fat mass is accepted as a side effect. I would say that a successful bulk is where you’re gaining twice as much muscle as fat, once you’re not doing that anymore it’s probably time to stop bulking and cut.[/quote]
Perhaps stop bulking but I think it would be a mistake to immediately cut. Let your body adapt and adjust to a new set point. Then clean it up and go from there.
How you can make statements like “the bulk ends when you are too fat”, or “I once bulked up to 20% bodyfat!”
I thought it was common sense that the point of a bulk was to gain MUSCLE.
Have you people actually been trying to gain FAT?
Of course you are going to increase your bodyfat while bulking, but if you are gaining muscle your bodyfat PERCENTAGE shouldn’t be increase by that much.
To answer the original question, the bulk ends when you have built enough muscle and it’s time to shed the fat to show what you’ve created.
~Brian
[quote]kroby wrote:
Synthesize wrote:
playmaker08 wrote:
Ive been doing a bulk for about two years (with one small cut between that time). In this time period I have went from 170 to 242, down to 215, now currently at 237. At 242 I could barely see my abs, but since that intermediate cut I have a decent set of abs showing through.
I think bulking is alright as long as you keep the sugars low and keep your carbs in check. Bulking is not a reason to eat everything in sight, as it seems some people have mistaken it for that.
Bulking will also be different for each individual, I was very lean before I started bulking. This means I could afford a more lenient diet than someone who was not as lean.
Given your prolific posting in the steroid forum, I am also going to venture that you are not natural.
There is nothing in playmaker08’s post that is steroid specific. The principles are sound. Keep the sugars low and carbs in check. You have a problem with that? Starting lean will afford the trainee to be able to eat a less strict diet. You have an opinion that suggests otherwise?
I recently had a juiced to the gills member of my gym tell me to train harder and always stay in a caloric surplus. That way, I would not gain fat. Unfortunately, for a natural trainee, this is not an option, because if I train 4 times a week at my highest intensiveness, I will kill my endocrine system.
I take juiced trainees advice about “bulking” with a grain of salt.
You’d do well to listen to dudes on gear. Their intensity is beyond anything you could imagine. They put in more work than you, they probably eat better than you and they are more serious than you in attaining goals.
Put your “better than them” attitude away. Four times a week with high intensity will kill your endocrine system? LOL You’ve got a lot to learn, junior.[/quote]
I don’t have a better than them attitude. If I could live another life, I would juice and train like crazy, but I have other priorities. Yes, four times a week upper/lower split with real high intensity does kill my endocrine system almost always. Managing fatigue is extremely difficult if you aren’t juiced, especially if you have the type of personality that I do where I would train like I was about to kill myself if my body (endocrine system) would let me and it wouldn’t cripple me mentally for 2 hours afterward. Because I’ve done that.
Anyway juiced lifters can lift with crazy intensity because they don’t have to worry about fatigue as much as natural lifters, that is a fact. It doesn’t come from the inside, it comes from the fact that a chemical allows them to do so without worrying about the consequences that a natural lifter has to worry about if they go with too hard too often.
Anyway, it’s true that his principles were correct, but it’s entirely misleading to make a blanket statement that bulking is “okay” so long as you don’t do this, this, and this. It’s simply not true, and if you do bulk heavily as a natural, even with a 100% clean diet, you will get fat unless you have crazy genetics. But then again, we are coming to an issue of what the idea of “bulking” actually constitutes.
Last, even if I did take training “ideas” or “principles” from juiced trainees, I would die if I followed them without heavy modification. I was recently told a workout routine by a juiced lifter that would kill me if I followed it on a regular basis.
Advice from hardcore juiced lifters simply doesn’t apply without serious modification, that is a fact. Maybe some principles but nothing more.
It seems that you, sir, are taking the attitude about me.
[quote]kroby wrote:
Go ahead, guys. Stay lean and try to gain muscle mass. Your gains will be negligible.
If you’re not gaining weight, you’re not making progress. To ensure you’re in a caloric surplus, you have to eat above maintenance. That means you’ll gain fat as well as muscle.
12% BF is arbitrary. It’s not some rule.
The bulk ends when you’ve decided it to be over. Not when some 180 pound nancy boy says you’re fat.[/quote]
Well said. I want to gain strength and get scary big because it’s fun to lift heavy weights. Your all a bunch of ladies men.Let’s make the ideal man look like a guy who mixes high doses of drol and dbol for 3 months.