What's With the US Obsession?

[quote]hedo wrote:
orion wrote:
hedo wrote:
Why doen’t Biotest give them their own forum, preferably on another site.

To give you enough resistance to have the opportunity to grow.

Plus, the circle jerk that this forum would otherwise be would be unbearably gay.

And yes, there would be something seriously wrong with that.

Arguing with bigots isn’t much resistance. More like annoying insects, ever present but don’t actually accomplish much.

The political forum “jumped the shark” a long time ago. Most of the vets have left or don’t post here anymore. It was a diversion for iron heads to talk about something different. It morphed into a “circle jerk” for politicos who have little or no interest in the purpose the site was created for.

In it’s heyday the political forum was entertaining and offered challenging debate. That was about 3 years ago.
[/quote]

Give it time.

Tempora mutantur et nos mutamur in illis.

[quote]orion wrote:
Is it that special time of the month again? [/quote]

Excellent! LMAO

This is all hopelessly general. Europeans hate Americans? Which europeans hate which americans or hate which american policy. It is just as conceivable that the europeans could claim that americans lacking an enemy like the Soviet Union had to turn their wrath towards the french, the UN or (as it would appear from recent news broadcasts) sharks who occasionally attack surfers.

Certainly there does exist the phenomenon of knee-jerk anti-americanism, but also, so it would see, does there exist knee-jerk anti-europeanism.

And the europeans do kick our ass in many ways! Better food (if you exclude Britain and Finland ;), better public education (let’s face it, most americans graduate from high school not knowing much of anything…foreign language, math, etc. Compare an average french kid who gets out of lycee or a german kid who gets out of gymnasium with an average american kid. The french or german kid will have had a much better education), better health care. As far as cars, I would take a Mercedes-Benz or a Volvo anyday over the shit they have been producing in Detroit these days. That said, there are certainly things that are much better in the United States, but we need to get over this arrogance about our country being BEST in each and every way.

[quote]entheogens wrote:
This is all hopelessly general. Europeans hate Americans? Which europeans hate which americans or hate which american policy. It is just as conceivable that the europeans could claim that americans lacking an enemy like the Soviet Union had to turn their wrath towards the french, the UN or (as it would appear from recent news broadcasts) sharks who occasionally attack surfers.

Certainly there does exist the phenomenon of knee-jerk anti-americanism, but also, so it would see, does there exist knee-jerk anti-europeanism.

And the europeans do kick our ass in many ways! Better food (if you exclude Britain and Finland ;), better public education (let’s face it, most americans graduate from high school not knowing much of anything…foreign language, math, etc. Compare an average french kid who gets out of lycee or a german kid who gets out of gymnasium with an average american kid. The french or german kid will have had a much better education), better health care. As far as cars, I would take a Mercedes-Benz or a Volvo anyday over the shit they have been producing in Detroit these days. That said, there are certainly things that are much better in the United States, but we need to get over this arrogance about our country being BEST in each and every way.[/quote]

Disagree with a couple things here.

You are comparing the top level education of German students to average American students. By the time they hit Gymnasium the dumbasses have already been weeded out. In America the dumbasses are mainstreamed into the classroom.

I’ll bet if they look at test scores for kids in Gymnasium vs the upper level kids in the US they will be similar.

Also medical care in America is the best in the world at almost every procedure. Our health insurance situation is messed up but the socialist health care situation is also messed up. Quality of care in the US is top notch. I would rather be treated in the US although my wallet might not like it.

[quote]entheogens wrote:

And the europeans do kick our ass in many ways! Better food (if you exclude Britain and Finland ;)…[/quote]

You are wrong. Baltic herring is a very tasty fish.

[quote]entheogens wrote:
This is all hopelessly general. Europeans hate Americans? Which europeans hate which americans or hate which american policy. It is just as conceivable that the europeans could claim that americans lacking an enemy like the Soviet Union had to turn their wrath towards the french, the UN or (as it would appear from recent news broadcasts) sharks who occasionally attack surfers.

Certainly there does exist the phenomenon of knee-jerk anti-americanism, but also, so it would see, does there exist knee-jerk anti-europeanism.

And the europeans do kick our ass in many ways! Better food (if you exclude Britain and Finland ;), better public education (let’s face it, most americans graduate from high school not knowing much of anything…foreign language, math, etc. Compare an average french kid who gets out of lycee or a german kid who gets out of gymnasium with an average american kid. The french or german kid will have had a much better education), better health care. As far as cars, I would take a Mercedes-Benz or a Volvo anyday over the shit they have been producing in Detroit these days. That said, there are certainly things that are much better in the United States, but we need to get over this arrogance about our country being BEST in each and every way.[/quote]

Good points. I learned from a French student who was hitchhiking around the west that many in France and western Europe view the Czechs and other Eastern Europeans as good for only picking vegetables or doing other menial jobs. Talking with him I couldn’t help but see the similarity to how Mexican legal/illegal immigrants are seen here.

All these Eastern European kids I’m working with are doing dish washer or room cleaning type jobs but they are all college students, not arts and theater or women’s studies either but micro-electronics, computer sciences, engineering, etc.

This article in Time has some poll figures in it.

Dream On America
The U.S. Model: For years, much of the world did aspire to the American way of life. But today countries are finding more appealing systems in their own backyards.
By Andrew Moravcsik
Newsweek International
Jan. 31 issue - Not long ago, the American dream was a global fantasy. Not only Americans saw themselves as a beacon unto nations. So did much of the rest of the world. East Europeans tuned into Radio Free Europe. Chinese students erected a replica of the Statue of Liberty in Tiananmen Square.

You had only to listen to George W. Bush’s Inaugural Address last week (invoking “freedom” and “liberty” 49 times) to appreciate just how deeply Americans still believe in this founding myth. For many in the world, the president’s rhetoric confirmed their worst fears of an imperial America relentlessly pursuing its narrow national interests. But the greater danger may be a delusional America�??one that believes, despite all evidence to the contrary, that the American Dream lives on, that America remains a model for the world, one whose mission is to spread the word.

The gulf between how Americans view themselves and how the world views them was summed up in a poll last week by the BBC. Fully 71 percent of Americans see the United States as a source of good in the world. More than half view Bush’s election as positive for global security. Other studies report that 70 percent have faith in their domestic institutions and nearly 80 percent believe “American ideas and customs” should spread globally.

Foreigners take an entirely different view: 58 percent in the BBC poll see Bush’s re-election as a threat to world peace. Among America’s traditional allies, the figure is strikingly higher: 77 percent in Germany, 64 percent in Britain and 82 percent in Turkey. Among the 1.3 billion members of the Islamic world, public support for the United States is measured in single digits. Only Poland, the Philippines and India viewed Bush’s second Inaugural positively.

Tellingly, the anti-Bushism of the president’s first term is giving way to a more general anti-Americanism. A plurality of voters (the average is 70 percent) in each of the 21 countries surveyed by the BBC oppose sending any troops to Iraq, including those in most of the countries that have done so. Only one third, disproportionately in the poorest and most dictatorial countries, would like to see American values spread in their country. Says Doug Miller of GlobeScan, which conducted the BBC report: “President Bush has further isolated America from the world. Unless the administration changes its approach, it will continue to erode America’s good name, and hence its ability to effectively influence world affairs.” Former Brazilian president Jose Sarney expressed the sentiments of the 78 percent of his countrymen who see America as a threat: “Now that Bush has been re-elected, all I can say is, God bless the rest of the world.”

The truth is that Americans are living in a dream world. Not only do others not share America’s self-regard, they no longer aspire to emulate the country’s social and economic achievements. The loss of faith in the American Dream goes beyond this swaggering administration and its war in Iraq. A President Kerry would have had to confront a similar disaffection, for it grows from the success of something America holds dear: the spread of democracy, free markets and international institutions�??globalization, in a word.

Countries today have dozens of political, economic and social models to choose from. Anti-Americanism is especially virulent in Europe and Latin America, where countries have established their own distinctive ways�??none made in America. Futurologist Jeremy Rifkin, in his recent book “The European Dream,” hails an emerging European Union based on generous social welfare, cultural diversity and respect for international law�??a model that’s caught on quickly across the former nations of Eastern Europe and the Baltics. In Asia, the rise of autocratic capitalism in China or Singapore is as much a “model” for development as America’s scandal-ridden corporate culture. “First we emulate,” one Chinese businessman recently told the board of one U.S. multinational, “then we overtake.”

Many are tempted to write off the new anti-Americanism as a temporary perturbation, or mere resentment. Blinded by its own myth, America has grown incapable of recognizing its flaws. For there is much about the American Dream to fault. If the rest of the world has lost faith in the American model�??political, economic, diplomatic�??it’s partly for the very good reason that it doesn’t work as well anymore.

AMERICAN DEMOCRACY: Once upon a time, the U.S. Constitution was a revolutionary document, full of epochal innovations�??free elections, judicial review, checks and balances, federalism and, perhaps most important, a Bill of Rights. In the 19th and 20th centuries, countries around the world copied the document, not least in Latin America. So did Germany and Japan after World War II. Today? When nations write a new constitution, as dozens have in the past two decades, they seldom look to the American model.

When the soviets withdrew from Central Europe, U.S. constitutional experts rushed in. They got a polite hearing, and were sent home. Jiri Pehe, adviser to former president Vaclav Havel, recalls the Czechs’ firm decision to adopt a European-style parliamentary system with strict limits on campaigning. “For Europeans, money talks too much in American democracy. It’s very prone to certain kinds of corruption, or at least influence from powerful lobbies,” he says. “Europeans would not want to follow that route.” They also sought to limit the dominance of television, unlike in American campaigns where, Pehe says, “TV debates and photogenic looks govern election victories.”

So it is elsewhere. After American planes and bombs freed the country, Kosovo opted for a European constitution. Drafting a post-apartheid constitution, South Africa rejected American-style federalism in favor of a German model, which leaders deemed appropriate for the social-welfare state they hoped to construct. Now fledgling African democracies look to South Africa as their inspiration, says John Stremlau, a former U.S. State Department official who currently heads the international relations department at the University of Witwatersrand in Johannesburg: “We can’t rely on the Americans.” The new democracies are looking for a constitution written in modern times and reflecting their progressive concerns about racial and social equality, he explains. “To borrow Lincoln’s phrase, South Africa is now Africa’s ‘last great hope’.”

Much in American law and society troubles the world these days. Nearly all countries reject the United States’ right to bear arms as a quirky and dangerous anachronism. They abhor the death penalty and demand broader privacy protections. Above all, once most foreign systems reach a reasonable level of affluence, they follow the Europeans in treating the provision of adequate social welfare is a basic right. All this, says Bruce Ackerman at Yale University Law School, contributes to the growing sense that American law, once the world standard, has become “provincial.” The United States’ refusal to apply the Geneva Conventions to certain terrorist suspects, to ratify global human-rights treaties such as the innocuous Convention on the Rights of the Child or to endorse the International Criminal Court (coupled with the abuses at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo) only reinforces the conviction that America’s Constitution and legal system are out of step with the rest of the world.

ECONOMIC PROSPERITY: The American Dream has always been chiefly economic�??a dynamic ideal of free enterprise, free markets and individual opportunity based on merit and mobility. Certainly the U.S. economy has been extraordinarily productive. Yes, American per capita income remains among the world’s highest. Yet these days there’s as much economic dynamism in the newly industrializing economies of Asia, Latin America and even eastern Europe. All are growing faster than the United States. At current trends, the Chinese economy will be bigger than America’s by 2040. Whether those trends will continue is not so much the question. Better to ask whether the American way is so superior that everyone else should imitate it. And the answer to that, increasingly, is no.

Much has made, for instance, of the differences between the dynamic American model and the purportedly sluggish and overregulated “European model.” Ongoing efforts at European labor-market reform and fiscal cuts are ridiculed. Why can’t these countries be more like Britain, businessmen ask, without the high tax burden, state regulation and restrictions on management that plague Continental economies? Sooner or later, the CW goes, Europeans will adopt the American model�??or perish.

Yet this is a myth. For much of the postwar period Europe and Japan enjoyed higher growth rates than America. Airbus recently overtook Boeing in sales of commercial aircraft, and the EU recently surpassed America as China’s top trading partner. This year’s ranking of the world’s most competitive economies by the World Economic Forum awarded five of the top 10 slots�??including No. 1 Finland�??to northern European social democracies. “Nordic social democracy remains robust,” writes Anthony Giddens, former head of the London School of Economics and a “New Labour” theorist, in a recent issue of the New Statesman, “not because it has resisted reform, but because it embraced it.”

This is much of the secret of Britain’s economic performance as well. Lorenzo Codogno, co-head of European economics at the Bank of America, believes the British, like Europeans elsewhere, “will try their own way to achieve a proper balance.” Certainly they would never put up with the lack of social protections afforded in the American system. Europeans are aware that their systems provide better primary education, more job security and a more generous social net. They are willing to pay higher taxes and submit to regulation in order to bolster their quality of life. Americans work far longer hours than Europeans do, for instance. But they are not necessarily more productive�??nor happier, buried as they are in household debt, without the time (or money) available to Europeans for vacation and international travel. George Monbiot, a British public intellectual, speaks for many when he says, “The American model has become an American nightmare rather than an American dream.”

Just look at booming bri-tain. Instead of cutting social welfare, Tony Blair’s Labour government has expanded it. According to London’s Centre for Policy Studies, public spending in Britain represented 43 percent of GDP in 2003, a figure closer to the Eurozone average than to the American share of 35 percent. It’s still on the rise�??some 10 percent annually over the past three years�??at the same time that social welfare is being reformed to deliver services more efficiently. The inspiration, says Giddens, comes not from America, but from social-democratic Sweden, where universal child care, education and health care have been proved to increase social mobility, opportunity and, ultimately, economic productivity. In the United States, inequality once seemed tolerable because America was the land of equal opportunity. But this is no longer so. Two decades ago, a U.S. CEO earned 39 times the average worker; today he pulls in 1,000 times as much. Cross-national studies show that America has recently become a relatively difficult country for poorer people to get ahead. Monbiot summarizes the scientific data: “In Sweden, you are three times more likely to rise out of the economic class into which you were born than you are in the U.S.”

Other nations have begun to notice. Even in poorer, pro-American Hungary and Poland, polls show that only a slender minority (less than 25 percent) wants to import the American economic model. A big reason is its increasingly apparent deficiencies. “Americans have the best medical care in the world,” Bush declared in his Inaugural Address. Yet the United States is the only developed democracy without a universal guarantee of health care, leaving about 45 million Americans uninsured. Nor do Americans receive higher-quality health care in exchange. Whether it is measured by questioning public-health experts, polling citizen satisfaction or survival rates, the health care offered by other countries increasingly ranks above America’s. U.S. infant mortality rates are among the highest for developed democracies. The average Frenchman, like most Europeans, lives nearly four years longer than the average American. Small wonder that the World Health Organization rates the U.S. healthcare system only 37th best in the world, behind Colombia (22nd) and Saudi Arabia (26th), and on a par with Cuba.

The list goes on: ugly racial tensions, sky-high incarceration rates, child-poverty rates higher than any Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development country except Mexico�??where Europe, these days, inspires more admiration than the United States. “Their solutions feel more natural to Mexicans because they offer real solutions to real, and seemingly intractable, problems,” says Sergio Aguayo, a prominent democracy advocate in Mexico City, referring to European education, health care and social policies. And while undemocratic states like China may, ironically, be among the last places where the United States still presents an attractive political and social alternative to authoritarian government, new models are rising in prominence. Says Julie Zhu, a college student in Beijing: “When I was in high school I thought America was this dreamland, a fabled place.” Anything she bought had to be American. Now that’s changed, she says: “When people have money, they often choose European products.” She might well have been talking about another key indicator. Not long ago, the United States was destination number one for foreign students seeking university educations. Today, growing numbers are going elsewhere�??to other parts of Asia, or Europe. You can almost feel the pendulum swinging.

FOREIGN POLICY: U.S. leaders have long believed military power and the American Dream went hand in hand. World War II was fought not just to defeat the Axis powers, but to make the world safe for the United Nations, the precursor to the �??World Trade Organization, the European Union and other international institutions that would strengthen weaker countries. NATO and the Marshall Plan were the twin pillars upon which today’s Europe were built.

Today, Americans make the same presumption, confusing military might with right. Following European criticisms of the Iraq war, the French became “surrender monkeys.” The Germans were opportunistic ingrates. The British (and the Poles) were America’s lone allies. Unsurprisingly, many of those listening to Bush’s Inaugural pledge last week to stand with those defying tyranny saw the glimmerings of an argument for invading Iran: Washington has thus far shown more of an appetite for spreading ideals with the barrel of a gun than for namby-pamby hearts-and-minds campaigns. A former French minister muses that the United States is the last "Bismarckian power"�??the last country to believe that the pinpoint application of military power is the critical instrument of foreign policy.

Contrast that to the European Union�??pioneering an approach based on civilian instruments like trade, foreign aid, peacekeeping, international monitoring and international law�??or even China, whose economic clout has become its most effective diplomatic weapon. The strongest tool for both is access to huge markets. No single policy has contributed as much to Western peace and security as the admission of 10 new countries�??to be followed by a half-dozen more�??to the European Union. In country after country, authoritarian nationalists were beaten back by democratic coalitions held together by the promise of joining Europe. And in the past month European leaders have taken a courageous decision to contemplate the membership of Turkey, where the prospect of EU membership is helping to create the most stable democratic system in the Islamic world. When historians look back, they may see this policy as being the truly epochal event of our time, dwarfing in effectiveness the crude power of America.

The United States can take some satisfaction in this. After all, it is in large part the success of the mid-century American Dream�??spreading democracy, free markets, social mobility and multilateral cooperation�??that has made possible the diversity of models we see today. This was enlightened statecraft of unparalleled generosity. But where does it leave us? Americans still invoke democratic idealism. We heard it in Bush’s address, with his apocalyptic proclamation that “the survival of liberty in our land increasingly depends on the success of liberty in other lands.” But fewer and fewer people have the patience to listen.

Headlines in the British press were almost contemptuous: DEFIANT BUSH DOES NOT MENTION THE WAR, HAVE I GOT NUKES FOR YOU and HIS SECOND-TERM MISSION: TO END TYRANNY ON EARTH. Has this administration learned nothing from Iraq, they asked? Can this White House really expect to command support from the rest of the world, with its different strengths and different dreams? The failure of the American Dream has only been highlighted by the country’s foreign-policy failures, not caused by them. The true danger is that Americans do not realize this, lost in the reveries of greatness, speechifying about liberty and freedom.

With Christian Caryl in Tokyo, Katka Krosnar in Prague, Mac Margolis in Rio de Janeiro, Tracy Mcnicoll in Paris, Paul Mooney in Beijing, Henk Rossouw in Johannesburg and Marie Valla in London

© 2007 Newsweek, Inc.
URL: MSN

World Public Opinion

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/views_on_countriesregions_bt/index.php?nid=&id=&lb=btvoc

Interesting topics such as:

World Publics Reject US Role as the World Leader

America’s Image in the World

World View of US Role Goes From Bad to Worse

Hmm, here’s an unpopular bit of honesty which I suspect might get me some unhappy customers.

During my travels in the US, living and working there for a decade, it became apparent that the media focuses primarily on the US and that whenever a talking head or politician has something to say it usually includes how great America is.

Now, sure, America actually is great, but nobody spends any time talking about the bad things, because that is no fun to hear. Instead it’s all about how “we” have to best this and the best that and why the rest of the world sucks (as per Zap’s health care post).

Anyway guys, there is a huge difference between being critical about various policies or actions and being anti-American. It’s good for people in the US to be exposed to external viewpoints just as it is good for europeans and others to be exposed to US viewpoints.

Sigh. I can’t tell you how disappointed I was by the whole “freedom fries” nonsense directed at the “cheese eating surrender monkeys”.

Anyhow, go ahead and flame away if you must, but at least I’ve spent considerable time on both sides of the border and made a lot of great friends wherever I travelled. Sometimes I wish I was travelling more these days.

Heh, by the way, I almost never bother discussing politics in real life. It’s just one of those Internet things!

[quote]vroom wrote:…
Now, sure, America actually is great, but nobody spends any time talking about the bad things, because that is no fun to hear. Instead it’s all about how “we” have to best this and the best that and why the rest of the world sucks (as per Zap’s health care post).
…[/quote]

I only say it because it is true. We spend an absolute fortune on medical care. We have invested more in equipment etc than anyone else.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
vroom wrote:…
Now, sure, America actually is great, but nobody spends any time talking about the bad things, because that is no fun to hear. Instead it’s all about how “we” have to best this and the best that and why the rest of the world sucks (as per Zap’s health care post).

I only say it because it is true. We spend an absolute fortune on medical care. We have invested more in equipment etc than anyone else.
[/quote]

In other words, The U.S. is superior to every other nation on the planet because we have the machine that goes “ping.”

Quod erat demonstrandum.

I think I’ve posted this before, but it’s a perennial favorite of mine. It was written a few years ago by my friend Bill Bonner, a fellow American who, like me, has lived long enough outside of his native land to have outgrown any notions of the infallibility and unquestionable supremacy of the good old U.S. of A.

Anti-Americans, feel free to smirk. Die-hard patriots, feel free to wail and gnash your teeth. Fellow cynics, enjoy.

A Free Country

“Proud to be an American” says one bumper sticker. “One nation - indivisible,” says another. America was, of course, founded on the opposite principle…the idea that people were free to separate themselves from a parent government whenever they felt they had come of age.

But no fraud, no matter how stupendous, is so obvious as to be detected by the average American. That is America’s great strength…or its most serious weakness.

After September 11, so many people bought flags that the shops ran short. Old Glory festooned nearly every porch and bridge. Patriotism swelled every heart.

Europeans, coming back to the Old Country, reported that they had never seen anything like it. A Frenchman takes his country for granted. He is born into it, just as he is born into his religion. He may be proud of La Belle France the way he is proud of his cheese. But he is not fool enough to claim credit for either one. He just feels lucky to have them for his own.

America, by contrast, is a nation of people who chose to become Americans. Even the oldest family tree in the New World has immigrants at its root. And where did its government, its courts, its businesses and saloons come from? They were all invented by us.

Having chosen the country…and made it what it is…Americans feel more responsibility for what it has become than the citizens of most other nations. And they take more pride in it, too.

But what is it? What has it become? What makes America different from any other nation? Why should we care more about it than about, say, Lithuania or Chad?

Pressed for an answer, most Americans would reply, “Because America is a free country.” What else can be said of the place? Its land mass is as varied as the earth itself. Inhabiting the sands of Tucson as well as the steppes of Alaska, Americans could as well be called a desert race as an arctic one.

Its religions are equally diverse - from moss-backed Episcopalians of the Virginia tidewater to the holy rollers of East Texas to the Muslims of East Harlem. Nor does blood itself give the country any mark of distinction. The individual American has more in common genetically with the people his people come from than with his fellow Americans.

In a DNA test, your correspondent is more likely to be mistaken for an IRA hitman than a Baltimore drug dealer.

America never was a nation in the usual sense of the word. Though there are plenty of exceptions - especially among the made-up nations of former European colonies - nations are usually composed of groups of people who share common blood, culture, and language.

Americans mostly speak English. But they might just as well speak Spanish. And at the debut of the republic, the founding fathers narrowly avoided declaring German the official language…at least, that is the legend. A Frenchman has to speak French. A German has to speak the language of the Vaterland. But an American could speak anything. And often does.

Nor is there even a common history. The average immigrant didn’t arrive until the early 20th century. By then, America’s history was already 3 centuries old. The average citizen missed the whole thing.

Neither blood, history, religion, language - what else is left? Only an idea: that you could come to America and be whatever you wanted to be. You might have been a bog- trotter in Ireland or a baron in Silesia; in America you were free to become whatever you could make of yourself.

“Give me liberty or give me death,” said Patrick Henry, raising the rhetorical stakes and praying no one would call him on it. Yet, the average man at the time lived in near perfect freedom. There were few books and few laws on them. And fewer people to enforce them.

Henry, if he wanted to do so, could have merely crossed the Blue Ridge west of Charlottesville and never seen another government agent again.

Thomas Jefferson complained, in the Declaration of Independence, that Britain had “erected a multitude of New Offices, and set hither swarms of Officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.” Yet the swarms of officers sent by George III would have barely filled a mid- sized regional office of the IRS or city zoning department today.

Likewise, the Founding Fathers kvetched about taxation without representation. But history has shown that representation only makes taxation worse. Kings, emperors and tyrants must keep tax rates low…otherwise, the people rise in rebellion.

It is democrats that really eat out the substance of the people: the illusion of self-government lets them get away with it. Tax rates were only an average of 3% under the tyranny of King George III. One of the blessings of democracy is average tax rates that are ten times as high.

“Americans today,” wrote Rose Wilder Lane in 1936, after the Lincoln administration had annihilated the principle of self-government…but before the Roosevelt team had finished its work, “are the most reckless and lawless of peoples…we are also the most imaginative, the most temperamental, the most infinitely varied.”

But by the end of the 20th century, Americans were required to wear seat belts and ate low-fat yoghurt without a gun to their heads. The recklessness seems to have been bred out of them. And the variety too. North, south, east and west, people all wear the same clothes and cherish the same decrepit ideas as if they were religious relics.

And why not? It’s a free country.

[quote]hedo wrote:
In it’s heyday the political forum was entertaining and offered challenging debate. That was about 3 years ago.
[/quote]

In the “heyday” you describe, it was a neocon hornet’s nest.

Now, it’s far more balanced between opposing viewpoints.

Grimnuruk,

your Time article I think pretty much hits the nail on the head. Indeed, it is a problem of perception: While many inside the US well deservedly salute pride over US historical achievements, the outside world may have indeed moved on to not modeling their societies and economies on it. Alienated especially by an administration that has done incredible PR damage to the US, blind anti-Americanism surely is on the rise.

What has to be seen though, is that there is a difference between criticism of policies (Iraq, gun laws, death-penalty, ‘war’ on terror, etc.) and ‘hating the US’. Yes, at some point rejected and ignored criticism turns to contempt and being sidelined - a lesson the Bush administration is now slowly learning on the international stage. But again, this tends to be criticism of what the US does rather than what it is.

As for Sloth’s assumption that there is an obsession with bashing the US, I would argue that there may be an obsession with criticising US policies (ie. what it does). But to react with a thread that ends up just bashing Europe for what it is shows exactly what I’ve said before: it’s a sign of ignoring the issues, rather than addressing them.

As has been pointed out so many times before: if US citizens want to be proud of their country’s achievements, they rightly can do so and no one criticises them for that; if the ‘pride’ is based merely on the perceived faults of others in the face of criticism, it stands to be argued that it may be rather based on insecurity.

Makkun

PS: Vroom - as so often the voice of reason.

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
hedo wrote:
In it’s heyday the political forum was entertaining and offered challenging debate. That was about 3 years ago.

In the “heyday” you describe, it was a neocon hornet’s nest.

Now, it’s far more balanced between opposing viewpoints.

[/quote]

Bullshit. We had plenty of intelligent civil lefties. They left too. And most of them also posted in the training forums too.

[quote]hedo wrote:
Bullshit. We had plenty of intelligent civil lefties. They left too. And most of them also posted in the training forums too.
[/quote]

The neocons drove them out… :stuck_out_tongue:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
I think I’ve posted this before, but it’s a perennial favorite of mine. It was written a few years ago by my friend Bill Bonner, a fellow American who, like me, has lived long enough outside of his native land to have outgrown any notions of the infallibility and unquestionable supremacy of the good old U.S. of A.

[/quote]

Good post.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
vroom wrote:…
Now, sure, America actually is great, but nobody spends any time talking about the bad things, because that is no fun to hear. Instead it’s all about how “we” have to best this and the best that and why the rest of the world sucks (as per Zap’s health care post).

I only say it because it is true. We spend an absolute fortune on medical care. We have invested more in equipment etc than anyone else.

In other words, The U.S. is superior to every other nation on the planet because we have the machine that goes “ping.”

Quod erat demonstrandum.[/quote]

In this area we are at the top.

In other areas we are not.

Our food industry sucks. Too much HFCS and soy being pumped into everything.

We have horrible drivers and terrible public transportation.

We have stifling bureaucracy in many areas yet we cannot do obvious things like control our borders.

We have bad drug laws.

The list goes on and on.

[quote]entheogens wrote:
It is just as conceivable that the europeans could claim that americans lacking an enemy like the Soviet Union had to turn their wrath towards the french, the UN or (as it would appear from recent news broadcasts) sharks who occasionally attack surfers.[/quote]

I don’t see it that way. America never picked a fight with the U.N. or France. They picked a fight with us. The U.N. is a failed organization that is completely useless; all it serves is to cause trouble and let our strategic adversaries dictate our foreign policy.

France has been doing everything within its power to show up American efforts abroad and defeat American interests for decades. They’re the ultimate hypocrites.

They’re almost as lose with weapons sales as Russia (it just so happens that British warships were sunk in the Falklands with French anti-ship missiles, if I recall correctly), yet they claim a moral high ground when it comes to things like Iraq. They deal with terrible regimes when it suits them, and then they call us out for our support of bad regimes.

France has buttoned itself in as a strategic enemy of the United States. It seems at times to be their number one foreign policy objective: to disrupt American efforts abroad. From Mitterand to Chiraque, their leaders hate our government. France is trying desperately to find some kind of international power again, and they’re picking a fight with us, for reasons unknown to me. It doesn’t seem to make any sense.

Ethically, they have no reason to be our enemies, for they are much worse than we in so many ways. Strategically, I can’t think of many reasons why they’d want to create a European counter-balance to us; we pose them no threat and, if anything, we’re an asset to Europe. France is weird.

As bad as we have been to the world, if you look at the situation dispassionately and objectively, we are surprisingly benevolent. Sure, we’ve done some nasty things as a hegemonic power, but for the most part, our intentions have been good. When they haven’t been so rosy, they were mostly justifiable.

I don’t understand the America-hate. We really aren’t so bad. One wonders what the situation would be if we ruled with an iron fist!

Spittle, I don’t know how old you are, or how deeply you have studied history, or how much time you have spent outside of the confines of the United States, but I can tell you that every nation will resent and resist the encroachment of an imperial power, no matter how benevolent or justifiable that imperial power believes itself to be.

The only exception to this rule is when the culture of the invading civilization offers some clear advantage or improvement over the status quo quality of life of the conquered nation. Which is why the Persian Empire was so quick to adopt Hellenic culture when it declined after Alexander’s invasion: the Greek way of life was vastly superior.

The Romans had a harder time winning the hearts and minds of their conquered peoples, first because they were a lot more heavy-handed than the Greeks were, but also because they were more interested in securing resources and slaves than they were in winning hearts and minds.

The British were a lot like the Greeks when they built their Empire. Singapore and Hong Kong are shining examples of the British legacy of improving infrastructure and education, and giving the people a demonstrably superior culture. India owes much of its current prosperity to the more positive aspects of British rule, namely emphasis on education and English proficiency even among the lower castes, as well as the abolishment of some of the more oppressive aspects of the caste system.

Yes, the British were bastards as well, as all imperial powers inevitably become, but the mark they left was for the most part positive.

The Americans on the other hand, at least in the eyes of many Europeans, are more like the Romans: our technological accomplishments and military prowess are awesome (and shocking), but in terms of a culture worthy of emulation, we have little to offer them.

Prosperity? Equality? Freedom? Justice? They point at our squalid inner city slums, the ridiculous disparity between our haves and have-nots, our burgeoning violent crime rates and overflowing prison populations. They look at our government, with its cronyism, its corruption, and its inbred racism, classism and sexism. They look at our mega-corporations, so powerful and voracious that they might as well be governments themselves. They look at our pitiable public education system that has produced a generation of ignorant illiterates (many of whom post on this board), and our healthcare system that, for all its vaunted technological supremacy, still leaves a huge underclass of citizens without basic medical care.

They look at all this and say, “non, merci. Nous ne voulons pas de ça.”

And so, when they decide that they will not aid and abet us in our stated goals of securing these blessings of American culture for the rest of the world (particularly when such securing is accomplished by way of airstrikes and heavy civilian casualties, and especially when they suspect that our stated goals are a cover for our real intentions of plunder), we naturally resent them for their “hatred of America.”

That’s the way I understand it, anyway.