What's Generally Considered Big?

Training
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[quote]sardines12 wrote:
not really, a big guy is a big guy, this question mostly revolves around who is bigger than you
the one thing that mma has shown though is that looks are deceiving
there is no way I would be scared of BJ Penn, or Kenny Florian if I looked at them[/quote]

Yep. The worst beating I’ve ever given was against the scariest looking guy I’ve ever fought. The worst beating I’ve ever got was against a fake tan, gelled hair, cutey patootey. Dude beat the hell out of me. I felt like the bad guys in Roadhouse.

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To me “big” in this context means the size where a person is physically capable of dealing out and sustaining large amounts of physical damage regardless of formal training. Obviously high degrees of technical combative skills and the rules and environments that combat sports occur in can somewhat counter raw physical prowess. Weapons and superior numbers are also great force multipliers and negate or even invert the force disparity between a smaller individual and a larger one.

But let’s be honest and admit that someone the size of Andre The Giant, Bill Kazmier, many of the World’s Strongest Man competitors, NFL lineman (both offensive and defensive) or pretty much anyone over say 265 (UFC’s HW limit) is a potentially dangerous person. Unless you yourself are very large yourself, there is going to be a potential force disparity in their favor. We also have no way of knowing in a real encounter the individuals skill level, whether they are armed, what type of experience they have, what their mindset will be should things get physical, or any number of other physical and physiological factors which might influence our level of success when dealing with them.

So personally I disagree with the notion that “size doesn’t matter”. That’s something that little guys tell themselves to make themselves feel better IMO (and I would put myself into that little guy category). If that we’re true then there would be no weight classes in combat sports. With superior size generally comes superior reach, superior strength (which can translate to superior manipulation of larger/more massive weapons), and greater bone density/tissue strength. All of those things are potentially very beneficial attributes to have in a fight. They may not win the day in the end for that individual, but they are nonetheless advantages and need to be respected as such.

1 Like
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[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
To me “big” in this context means the size where a person is physically capable of dealing out and sustaining large amounts of physical damage regardless of formal training. Obviously high degrees of technical combative skills and the rules and environments that combat sports occur in can somewhat counter raw physical prowess. Weapons and superior numbers are also great force multipliers and negate or even invert the force disparity between a smaller individual and a larger one.

But let’s be honest and admit that someone the size of Andre The Giant, Bill Kazmier, many of the World’s Strongest Man competitors, NFL lineman (both offensive and defensive) or pretty much anyone over say 265 (UFC’s HW limit) is a potentially dangerous person. Unless you yourself are very large yourself, there is going to be a potential force disparity in their favor. We also have no way of knowing in a real encounter the individuals skill level, whether they are armed, what type of experience they have, what their mindset will be should things get physical, or any number of other physical and physiological factors which might influence our level of success when dealing with them.

So personally I disagree with the notion that “size doesn’t matter”. That’s something that little guys tell themselves to make themselves feel better IMO (and I would put myself into that little guy category). If that we’re true then there would be no weight classes in combat sports. With superior size generally comes superior reach, superior strength (which can translate to superior manipulation of larger/more massive weapons), and greater bone density/tissue strength. All of those things are potentially very beneficial attributes to have in a fight. They may not win the day in the end for that individual, but they are nonetheless advantages and need to be respected as such.[/quote]

I agree.

With guys that size, I’m using a weapon. And if me, at 5’7 and 175, can’t convince a judge that this 6’6, 270 lb. guy was life-threatening and that a weapon was required, I hired a shitty lawyer.

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[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
To me “big” in this context means the size where a person is physically capable of dealing out and sustaining large amounts of physical damage regardless of formal training. Obviously high degrees of technical combative skills and the rules and environments that combat sports occur in can somewhat counter raw physical prowess. Weapons and superior numbers are also great force multipliers and negate or even invert the force disparity between a smaller individual and a larger one.

But let’s be honest and admit that someone the size of Andre The Giant, Bill Kazmier, many of the World’s Strongest Man competitors, NFL lineman (both offensive and defensive) or pretty much anyone over say 265 (UFC’s HW limit) is a potentially dangerous person. Unless you yourself are very large yourself, there is going to be a potential force disparity in their favor. We also have no way of knowing in a real encounter the individuals skill level, whether they are armed, what type of experience they have, what their mindset will be should things get physical, or any number of other physical and physiological factors which might influence our level of success when dealing with them.

So personally I disagree with the notion that “size doesn’t matter”. That’s something that little guys tell themselves to make themselves feel better IMO (and I would put myself into that little guy category). If that we’re true then there would be no weight classes in combat sports. With superior size generally comes superior reach, superior strength (which can translate to superior manipulation of larger/more massive weapons), and greater bone density/tissue strength. All of those things are potentially very beneficial attributes to have in a fight. They may not win the day in the end for that individual, but they are nonetheless advantages and need to be respected as such.[/quote]

I agree.

With guys that size, I’m using a weapon. And if me, at 5’7 and 175, can’t convince a judge that this 6’6, 270 lb. guy was life-threatening and that a weapon was required, I hired a shitty lawyer.[/quote]

Both spot on. Seriously, if a guy has more than about 20lbs on me, I’m going to hit him with a rock, not out jab him from the outside. Marc MacYoung opened my eyes to this, when he was asked by a top heavyweight BJJ guy what tricks MacYoung would use to beat him in a fight. MacYoung, who is undoubtedly a bad mofo, replied simply that he would get a weapon and attack the heavyweight when he wasn’t expecting it. Clearly illustrates the importance size can have. For me, the difference is that if a guy my size, or say up to 210lbs roughly, is being a hardnut, I’ll be looking to drop the glass in my hand and punch him. Anyone bigger than that, I’m choosing where on his head I’m going to break the bottle.

The other major consideration when fighting unarmed against someone bigger than you, and I learnt this one the hard way, is that even if you are a more trained, better meaner fighter than them, punching someone who is naturally big hurts a fuck of a lot more than punching someone normal size. Look at Haye v Valuev, Haye busted his hand, through gloves and wraps, by punching Vaulev in the head. If you are a normal sized guy, or to use the terminology of Sento, little (as in not being big enough to be an obvious physical force for anyone to reckon with), punching a big guy in the head is going to bust your hands, probably even if you hit them in a sweet spot.

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I love this story. “But I took you down!” “Yes, but I stabbed you…”

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[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
So personally I disagree with the notion that “size doesn’t matter”. [/quote]

I take issue with that as well. It’s especially prevalent in BJJ, which I do, and it can lead to someone getting seriously hurt, even in training. I prefer to say that size can be overcome but to think that fighting someone who is much bigger doesn’t pose more challenges than someone your own size is stupid and dangerous.

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As a sometimes bouncer, life long martial artist, and weight lifter i would have to say, im not really intimidated by size alone, unless they are just some sort of freak of nature. I’ve fought scrappy ass 170lbs dudes that put up more fight than 215lbs wanna-be bar bullies. I think weight and size makes more of a difference when grappling , when they can apply their extra weight against you. In stand up though, size still matters, its just not as large a factor. Once you are around 185lbs and can actually throw a good punch, there isn’t any size guy you can’t knock out really. the same cant be said for a 150lb guy. now obviously there are exception to the rule, like highly skilled lighter weight boxers, or Mark Hunt heads.

In my experience I’ve never been downed by a smaller fighter in stand up, and in grappling only, its still much easier to fight someone you outweigh.

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Big is always 30 lbs more than wherever I’m at. Anything less, I figure we got us a pretty fair matchup.

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Gameplan changes if they are larger than me by good amount say 3-4 inches and 30 pds or more.

BTW I am 6’1 and 230.

Edit

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I only practice Muay Thai for a few weeks now and I’m 237pounds (6f). Throughout my life I have never ever underestimated anyone. It’s the most stupid mistake one can make.

How can you tell on someones face what his background is? That 150 pound ecto can have 10 or more years of kickboxing under his belt. Or he can go really berserk. No one can tell.

It is true that my size and muscularity can be perceived as “intimidating”, but I see it more like a big V8 in a front wheel car. Sure you have the power, but that doesn’t mean you can put it on the road.

Although shaving my head bald and adding some scars and tattoos would do the trick :slight_smile:

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[quote]Dahollow wrote:
I only practice Muay Thai for a few weeks now and I’m 237pounds (6f). Throughout my life I have never ever underestimated anyone. It’s the most stupid mistake one can make.

How can you tell on someones face what his background is? That 150 pound ecto can have 10 or more years of kickboxing under his belt. Or he can go really berserk. No one can tell.

It is true that my size and muscularity can be perceived as “intimidating”, but I see it more like a big V8 in a front wheel car. Sure you have the power, but that doesn’t mean you can put it on the road.

Although shaving my head bald and adding some scars and tattoos would do the trick :)[/quote]

I take your point, and complacency is certainly the mother of all fuckups. That said, you seem to underestimate the advantage you have. If you’re 90lbs of muscle heavier than that person, I don’t care if it is a UFC champion, or Manny Pacquiao, you are going to fuck that person up if you have any kind of fight experience (particularly street fighting). Without a weapon, 90lbs is, in my opinion, an insurmountable disparity in weight, strength and raw physicality.

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Also the tattoos/scars general ugliness thing is a good point. As I’ve said before, I look like a choir boy, and I used to shit myself for years when I boxed mean looking guys with loads of tattoos (I dont’ have any, my mum would kill me). In the end though, I always beat the crap out of the tough guys. I guess my poin is that tattoos and the such like may have an effect on the inexperienced, but any streetfighter or sport fighter isn’t going to bat an eyelid at mean looking tattoos.

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[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:
Also the tattoos/scars general ugliness thing is a good point. As I’ve said before, I look like a choir boy, and I used to shit myself for years when I boxed mean looking guys with loads of tattoos (I dont’ have any, my mum would kill me). In the end though, I always beat the crap out of the tough guys. I guess my poin is that tattoos and the such like may have an effect on the inexperienced, but any streetfighter or sport fighter isn’t going to bat an eyelid at mean looking tattoos.[/quote]

It’s surprising to me that with MMA on air for 20 years, that anyone would think that large, tattoo, shaved head, etc automatically means fighting/death machine. I guess it is just self preservation to attempt to size up your surroundings.

To OP - the larger caliber I have in vicinity, the smaller the guy gets in my eyes haha

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[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:

[quote]Dahollow wrote:
I only practice Muay Thai for a few weeks now and I’m 237pounds (6f). Throughout my life I have never ever underestimated anyone. It’s the most stupid mistake one can make.

How can you tell on someones face what his background is? That 150 pound ecto can have 10 or more years of kickboxing under his belt. Or he can go really berserk. No one can tell.

It is true that my size and muscularity can be perceived as “intimidating”, but I see it more like a big V8 in a front wheel car. Sure you have the power, but that doesn’t mean you can put it on the road.

Although shaving my head bald and adding some scars and tattoos would do the trick :)[/quote]

I take your point, and complacency is certainly the mother of all fuckups. That said, you seem to underestimate the advantage you have. If you’re 90lbs of muscle heavier than that person, I don’t care if it is a UFC champion, or Manny Pacquiao, you are going to fuck that person up if you have any kind of fight experience (particularly street fighting). Without a weapon, 90lbs is, in my opinion, an insurmountable disparity in weight, strength and raw physicality.
[/quote]

I wouldn’t say it’s necessarily insurmountable, but it’s definitely going to require a severe disparity in terms of skill, mental fortitude, and tactics.

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[quote]treco wrote:

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:
Also the tattoos/scars general ugliness thing is a good point. As I’ve said before, I look like a choir boy, and I used to shit myself for years when I boxed mean looking guys with loads of tattoos (I dont’ have any, my mum would kill me). In the end though, I always beat the crap out of the tough guys. I guess my poin is that tattoos and the such like may have an effect on the inexperienced, but any streetfighter or sport fighter isn’t going to bat an eyelid at mean looking tattoos.[/quote]

It’s surprising to me that with MMA on air for 20 years, that anyone would think that large, tattoo, shaved head, etc automatically means fighting/death machine. I guess it is just self preservation to attempt to size up your surroundings.

To OP - the larger caliber I have in vicinity, the smaller the guy gets in my eyes haha[/quote]

I always rationalize that snakes and spiders tattooed up and down the arms, a bandanna and nose cartilage piercing (I would think piercings would be a liability in a fight) are greater indicators that the person is more willing to ruin their day to ruin yours, than most other people are.

These people are disproportionately lining up with a bummed out look in front of the methadone/street health clinic than others.

It is not an actual indication of fitness level or fighting skills.

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^^ This exactly nod

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^^^ Agree also, but have to admit I might be wary of Kristoph looking at those Wolverine whiskers :wink:

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[quote]treco wrote:

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:
Also the tattoos/scars general ugliness thing is a good point. As I’ve said before, I look like a choir boy, and I used to shit myself for years when I boxed mean looking guys with loads of tattoos (I dont’ have any, my mum would kill me). In the end though, I always beat the crap out of the tough guys. I guess my poin is that tattoos and the such like may have an effect on the inexperienced, but any streetfighter or sport fighter isn’t going to bat an eyelid at mean looking tattoos.[/quote]

It’s surprising to me that with MMA on air for 20 years, that anyone would think that large, tattoo, shaved head, etc automatically means fighting/death machine. I guess it is just self preservation to attempt to size up your surroundings.

To OP - the larger caliber I have in vicinity, the smaller the guy gets in my eyes haha[/quote]

It’s not always about that… it’s just what you’re seeing lining up with what you think you can’t win against.

For me fighting a white guy is easy - second nature. I love hurtin’ guys that have stupid tribal tattoos and think they’re hard because they got them.

But in boxing, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen white guys stare across the ring at the skinny ass black kid in the other corner, ASSUME that he must be fast and a true boxer because he’s black, and then lose a winnable fight because they lost it in their mind.

They THOUGHT that they would be outboxed, and so they were. Even when ability and skill level wise, they were equal.

It happens. That’s why big guys are feared… perception and mental state is most of the battle. It’s also why fat old guys… who were once SEALS but look now look like accountants… are such mothers. Once you realize that your perception of them was all wrong, it just might be too late…

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“It’s also why fat old guys… who were once SEALS but look now look like accountants… are such mothers. Once you realize that your perception of them was all wrong, it just might be too late”

Quoted for truth.

Never ever assume anything in combat, everyone is a lethal threat until they are neutralized or dead.

Never base your survival strategy or response on how someone “looks”

“you never know who you are fucking with”+++ that statement is something to live by.

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6’3 240 for a trained fighter

untrained 6’5 300+