What Price for White Skin?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
421

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:

The argument was at least two-fold: 1)People (not just black people) often (not in every case, as racism obviously still exists) attribute racism as causation too off-handedly for both subjective and objective slights, when it is one possible causation among many; 2) this is counterproductive to progress on racial issues.

Professor X wrote:
How is it counterproductive to race issues? If anything, what has made it counterproductive is the insistence that the problem isn’t really as intense as many say it is and the perception of those people is so skewed that they are simply seeing things.[/quote]

It’s counterproductive to the extent it’s an open question of subjective interpretation and people assign racism as the default explanation for a slight. It’s counterproductive on two different fronts. On the first, it’s counterproductive because it’s necessarily going to be over-inclusive (i.e., if there is a graph of racist discrimination represented by a circle, the graph of discrimination or perceived slights attributed to racism is going to be a bigger circle encompassing that circle). On the second, it’s going to create a lot of defensive reactions in people who believe they are being falsely attributed with racist intentions - and may make them defensive enough that they start to question actual instances of racism because they start to think people are crying wolf, so to speak.

Separately, there’s also the issue of encouraging the continuation of the “us” and “them” mentality, which we as human beings have a tendency to indulge. Having a default explanation of racism just encourages people to continually look at racial differences and focus on them.

But this is rehashing that other thread again.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
To deal with any problem, the actual problem must be identified first. Otherwise, how can a solution possibly be reached? [/quote]

You’re not acknowledging the subjective nature of perception. You can acknowledge racism exists and should be addressed without agreeing that each perceived or real slight suffered between people of different races is caused by racism - or even assuming it is until it’s proven otherwise (that’s ass backwards).

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Several arguments have been that nearly any mention of racist acts is “whining” and means the person is simply complaining all of the time while being a typical lazy black person. It is stated that the individual accepts no personal responsibility so they should just stop bringing it up.[/quote]

You’re conflating positions and people. Arguing with you about the validity of statistical discrimination, cultural perceptions and similar arguments is one set of positions - usually mine (and other people take them up simultaneously or separately).

A separate position, that people aren’t responsible for historical actions they didn’t personally take, is unrelated to the first (because it’s arguing a separate point).

Someone else arguing that everyone faces hardships, racism is one, and so people should just deal with it is another set of positions.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
You tell me how a solution can be reached if half the aisle refuses to see it while the other half keeps screaming about how prevalent it is?

That way hasn’t worked so why do you think it magically will now?[/quote]

I think the solution is deemphasizing racial differences and emphasizing commonalities. You obviously disagree. But we haven’t tried my solution yet…

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Why is any mention of it seen as “whining”?[/quote]

See above regarding the creation of a “crying wolf” perception on “the other half of the aisle.”

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Why does my “personal responsibility” get brought into question if I ever bring it up?[/quote]

You’ll need to ask someone who brings it up.

422

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:

You’re not acknowledging the subjective nature of perception. You can acknowledge racism exists and should be addressed without agreeing that each perceived or real slight suffered between people of different races is caused by racism - or even assuming it is until it’s proven otherwise (that’s ass backwards).[/quote]

Not agreeing with each and every case presented is much different than having the reflex response of believing every instance must be rationalized away simply because whites feel defensive if it is ever mentioned.

Subjective and objective analysis result in a proper diagnosis, not the act of ignoring the subjective and assuming fault.

[quote]
You’re conflating positions and people. Arguing with you about the validity of statistical discrimination, cultural perceptions and similar arguments is one set of positions - usually mine (and other people take them up simultaneously or separately).[/quote]

Those “other people” make up a vast majority of offense to any claim of racism by a minority…yet you don’t see why that creates tension?

[quote]

A separate position, that people aren’t responsible for historical actions they didn’t personally take, is unrelated to the first (because it’s arguing a separate point).[/quote]

If you are a part of this society, you do bare some responsibility for where it is and where it is headed. We all do. You still haven’t explained how you are devoid of any responsibility yet blacks still hold onto the responsibility of effecting a change in society.

[quote]
Someone else arguing that everyone faces hardships, racism is one, and so people should just deal with it is another set of positions. [/quote]

Racism is still too prevalent to claim that people should just deal with it. the moment its effects are barely noticeable among other random events in life that we all must deal with, then that position would make sense.

[quote]
I think the solution is deemphasizing racial differences and emphasizing commonalities. You obviously disagree. But we haven’t tried my solution yet…[/quote]

How can this be done if there is an abundance of stats floating around labeling me and those like me as a negative force in society? It must feel great to look out at the world and talk about emphasizing commonalities while indirectly blaming every black person for the national crime rate, the divorce rate applicable to a specific race or when some kid drops out of school.

[quote]
Professor X wrote:
Why is any mention of it seen as “whining”?

See above regarding the creation of a “crying wolf” perception on “the other half of the aisle.”[/quote]

The wolf is there. You even admit it. In that story the wolf still came. You are denying the voice of many because of some poor examples of playing the race card.

423

[quote]Professor X wrote:
How can this be done if there is an abundance of stats floating around labeling me and those like me as a negative force in society? It must feel great to look out at the world and talk about emphasizing commonalities while indirectly blaming every black person for the national crime rate, the divorce rate applicable to a specific race or when some kid drops out of school.
[/quote]

Agreed. Dealing with such issues is too painful. We’ll blame “White America,” and hope those abundance of stats just go away.

424

[quote]Professor X wrote:
If you are a part of this society, you do bare some responsibility for where it is and where it is headed. We all do. You still haven’t explained how you are devoid of any responsibility yet blacks still hold onto the responsibility of effecting a change in society.
[/quote]

I’m not responsible, since I’m not a slave owner, a Jim Crow supporter, or a racist. Any action I take to “better society” at all, is an act of charity. And, not because of some guilt I’ve inheritated.

425

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Professor X wrote:
How can this be done if there is an abundance of stats floating around labeling me and those like me as a negative force in society? It must feel great to look out at the world and talk about emphasizing commonalities while indirectly blaming every black person for the national crime rate, the divorce rate applicable to a specific race or when some kid drops out of school.

Agreed. Dealing with such issues is too painful. We’ll blame “White America,” and hope those abundance of stats just go away. [/quote]

Dealing with such issues is RACISM when directed at a specific race and not socio-economic influences. I have not contributed to the national crime rate. I haven’t had any children out of wed-lock. I never dropped out of school. Hell, I’ve never even been fired from a job before. Therefore, how is any of that my personal responsibility and what purpose does it serve to ascribe negative behavior to an entire race of people while ignoring the acts by a country that effectively led to that situation?

426

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Dealing with such issues is RACISM when directed at a specific race and not socio-economic influences. I have not contributed to the national crime rate. I haven’t had any children out of wed-lock. I never dropped out of school. Hell, I’ve never even been fired from a job before. Therefore, how is any of that my personal responsibility and what purpose does it serve to ascribe negative behavior to an entire race of people while ignoring the acts by a country that effectively led to that situation?[/quote]

You don’t have any responsibility but for your own actions. The only purpose ascribing behaviors to certain races has is to be able to talk about race in the first place. It would be impossible to talk about each person individually. Speaking about race has to be done in generalizations.

And the only reason I can ignore the acts of the country and not take responsibility for it is 1) I wasn’t there, nor am I responsible for the actions of others. Just as you are not. And 2) I don’t believe it’s the country’s fault that the black race is in the position that it is in. Each person has to take responsibility for themself, without blaming others, including Uncle Sam.

427

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Dealing with such issues is RACISM when directed at a specific race and not socio-economic influences. I have not contributed to the national crime rate. I haven’t had any children out of wed-lock. I never dropped out of school. Hell, I’ve never even been fired from a job before. Therefore, how is any of that my personal responsibility and what purpose does it serve to ascribe negative behavior to an entire race of people while ignoring the acts by a country that effectively led to that situation?[/quote]

Well, if we’re talking about obstacles to black achievement, the point is to recognize that racism is the least of them these days. I never said it way your personal responsibility, by the way. You’re free to choose if, and how, you want to change a rotten culture. And I don’t ascribe negative behavior to an entire race.

Edit: I have talked about the dumbing down of our values and culture in general, in other posts. Meaning, these stats (at least some of them) are trending badly for white folk, also (out of wed-lock birthrates, for example). But, for blacks, they’ve already reached tragic heights. They’ve gotten worse, even with the introduction of AA and the welfare state. It’s time to put racism on the back burner and look at culture and the welfare state if we want to close the achievment gap.

428

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:

You’re not acknowledging the subjective nature of perception. You can acknowledge racism exists and should be addressed without agreeing that each perceived or real slight suffered between people of different races is caused by racism - or even assuming it is until it’s proven otherwise (that’s ass backwards).

Professor X wrote:
Not agreeing with each and every case presented is much different than having the reflex response of believing every instance must be rationalized away simply because whites feel defensive if it is ever mentioned.

Subjective and objective analysis result in a proper diagnosis, not the act of ignoring the subjective and assuming fault.[/quote]

Yes, it is different. And each instance should be analyzed both subjectively and objectively, for the totality of the circumstances. And my point remains the way I stated it.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
You’re conflating positions and people. Arguing with you about the validity of statistical discrimination, cultural perceptions and similar arguments is one set of positions - usually mine (and other people take them up simultaneously or separately).

Professor X wrote:
Those “other people” make up a vast majority of offense to any claim of racism by a minority…yet you don’t see why that creates tension?[/quote]

I see the tension in your conflating my arguments with those of other people, wanting me to answer for them, and yet getting upset if people want you to answer for other people. I also see the tension in being upset if people make statements holding an individual black person responsible for the actions of other black people, but wanting to hold individual white people responsible for the actions of other white people (particularly before the people being held responsible were born).

My position is that people are responsible for their own actions and their own beliefs. What’s yours?

Also, I think it’s overstating your position to say that there is offense taken to “any” claim of racism by a minority (it sounds like the classic wrong answer on a multiple choice test). If you were going to restate that to say that there have been some strong reactions of either offense or disbelief to some claims of racism that I’ve seen, I’d definitely agree. But as to the individual merits of any particular claim, I couldn’t make any pronouncements without going back to review.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
A separate position, that people aren’t responsible for historical actions they didn’t personally take, is unrelated to the first (because it’s arguing a separate point).

Professor X wrote:
If you are a part of this society, you do bare some responsibility for where it is and where it is headed. We all do. You still haven’t explained how you are devoid of any responsibility yet blacks still hold onto the responsibility of effecting a change in society.[/quote]

Yes - generally, I have responsibility for the actions I’ve taken that have contributed to where it is, and for the actions I will take in the future that affect where it will go. Same as everyone else. Your second question doesn’t make sense, given the answer to the first - everyone has an equal responsibility (or, to state it differently, a black man has an equal responsibility with a white man to shape society going forward).

[quote]

BostonBarrister wrote:
Someone else arguing that everyone faces hardships, racism is one, and so people should just deal with it is another set of positions.

Professor X wrote:
Racism is still too prevalent to claim that people should just deal with it. the moment its effects are barely noticeable among other random events in life that we all must deal with, then that position would make sense.[/quote]

Not my argument. I think we should work to end ALL non-rational discrimination. That doesn’t mean I’m going to agree with a particular solution or even a particular statement of the problem, but we should work to end all non-rational discrimination.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
I think the solution is deemphasizing racial differences and emphasizing commonalities. You obviously disagree. But we haven’t tried my solution yet…

Professor X wrote:
How can this be done if there is an abundance of stats floating around labeling me and those like me as a negative force in society? [/quote]

There aren’t. Stats don’t label anyone. Use or misuse of stats by people can be used to label. I think we should stop gathering statistics based on race, personally. They are generally coincident with economic stats.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
It must feel great to look out at the world and talk about emphasizing commonalities while indirectly blaming every black person for the national crime rate, the divorce rate applicable to a specific race or when some kid drops out of school.[/quote]

I’ve never blamed every black person for a single thing. A stat that shows that blacks overall has a higher drop out rate doesn’t mean you’re a drop out. People need to study more math and stats so that they can use average statistics - or not get offended by their proper use.

Yes, there are wolves in the story too - the applicability is in any particular case, if an explanation is overused people won’t believe it when it’s there. That’s the story, remember?

ADDENDUM: It’s the end of the quarter and I need to extricate myself from this for the time being, given the end-of-the-day deadlines I have. Nice chatting with you.

429

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:

I see the tension in your conflating my arguments with those of other people, wanting me to answer for them, and yet getting upset if people want you to answer for other people. I also see the tension in being upset if people make statements holding an individual black person responsible for the actions of other black people, but wanting to hold individual white people responsible for the actions of other white people (particularly before the people being held responsible were born).[/quote]

Then you have been misunderstanding my position for quite a while. the point was and still is, if am going to be held as a representation of my race (as does happen with regards to black Americans in this country), then those in majority should bare some responsibility for the actions of the society they are now a part of. My argument has been that you can’t have it both ways.

Needless to say, most of America seems to do just that.

[quote]

My position is that people are responsible for their own actions and their own beliefs. What’s yours?[/quote]

Very similar. The difference being the responsibility of society in atrocities that have such significant influences on a specific segment of the population…so much so that it took decades to see significant positive results in that community.

For instance, I feel no ‘personal responsibility’ for the flood in New Orleans. I didn’t buy a home there. However, many of those people still needed the help and aid of the general public to get back on their feet. In effect, we all gave something due to the help from the government. Your stance is like saying they should simply have drowned and/or starved to death as the rest of the country shrugs and claims they bare no responsibility.

[quote]
Also, I think it’s overstating your position to say that there is offense taken to “any” claim of racism by a minority (it sounds like the classic wrong answer on a multiple choice test). If you were going to restate that to say that there have been some strong reactions of either offense or disbelief to some claims of racism that I’ve seen, I’d definitely agree. But as to the individual merits of any particular claim, I couldn’t make any pronouncements without going back to review.[/quote]

Poor attempt at being a lawyer for a second. Until this thread, there hasn’t been one instance ever described on this forum where someone didn’t claim that I was simply seeing things. Sure, maybe not ANY claim of racism…just 99%.

[quote]
There aren’t. Stats don’t label anyone. Use or misuse of stats by people can be used to label. I think we should stop gathering statistics based on race, personally. They are generally coincident with economic stats.[/quote]

If only the rest of the world felt the same. You have at least 2 or 3 posters running around the forum acting as if all of these stats are being used to prove something. I am also sure that attitude makes up the majority more than your own.

[quote]
I’ve never blamed every black person for a single thing. A stat that shows that blacks overall has a higher drop out rate doesn’t mean you’re a drop out. People need to study more math and stats so that they can use average statistics - or not get offended by their proper use.[/quote]

What would the proper use be?

[quote]
ADDENDUM: It’s the end of the quarter and I need to extricate myself from this for the time being, given the end-of-the-day deadlines I have. Nice chatting with you.[/quote]

No problem.

430

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
I see the tension in your conflating my arguments with those of other people, wanting me to answer for them, and yet getting upset if people want you to answer for other people. I also see the tension in being upset if people make statements holding an individual black person responsible for the actions of other black people, but wanting to hold individual white people responsible for the actions of other white people (particularly before the people being held responsible were born).

Professor X wrote:
Then you have been misunderstanding my position for quite a while. the point was and still is, if am going to be held as a representation of my race (as does happen with regards to black Americans in this country), then those in majority should bare some responsibility for the actions of the society they are now a part of. My argument has been that you can’t have it both ways.

Needless to say, most of America seems to do just that.[/quote]

Understandable position - but I’m not trying to have it both ways. So how do you think it should be? Not how you think it should be “if [you’re] going to be held as a representation”, but how you think it should be, period.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
My position is that people are responsible for their own actions and their own beliefs. What’s yours?

Professor X wrote:
Very similar. The difference being the responsibility of society in atrocities that have such significant influences on a specific segment of the population…so much so that it took decades to see significant positive results in that community.

For instance, I feel no ‘personal responsibility’ for the flood in New Orleans. I didn’t buy a home there. However, many of those people still needed the help and aid of the general public to get back on their feet. In effect, we all gave something due to the help from the government. Your stance is like saying they should simply have drowned and/or starved to death as the rest of the country shrugs and claims they bare no responsibility.[/quote]

“Society” is a useful construct for the government or the very rare instance of collective action. It’s overused otherwise.

That said, “society” does a lot to help people who start out with less in life - both in terms of immediate help, from charity and welfare, and in providing opportunity, in terms of public education, scholarships and numerous other opportunities.

There are floods in the midwest right now - and they’ll get less help than the folks in New Orleans, and less media attention. But they will get help.

Also, the example isn’t quite on point - people aren’t being told they have a moral obligation to help the people in New Orleans or the midwest because they are morally culpable for the flooding and thus have a responsibility to act. They help out of charity (or the government uses money taken from people to help because there’s been a natural disaster).

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
Also, I think it’s overstating your position to say that there is offense taken to “any” claim of racism by a minority (it sounds like the classic wrong answer on a multiple choice test). If you were going to restate that to say that there have been some strong reactions of either offense or disbelief to some claims of racism that I’ve seen, I’d definitely agree. But as to the individual merits of any particular claim, I couldn’t make any pronouncements without going back to review.

Professor X wrote:
Poor attempt at being a lawyer for a second. Until this thread, there hasn’t been one instance ever described on this forum where someone didn’t claim that I was simply seeing things. Sure, maybe not ANY claim of racism…just 99%.[/quote]

I still think you’re overstating your case. Neither of us is going to go back and try to search through the archives to do a case study. So we’ll just need to keep our own perceptions I guess.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
There aren’t. Stats don’t label anyone. Use or misuse of stats by people can be used to label. I think we should stop gathering statistics based on race, personally. They are generally coincident with economic stats.

Professor X wrote:
If only the rest of the world felt the same. You have at least 2 or 3 posters running around the forum acting as if all of these stats are being used to prove something. I am also sure that attitude makes up the majority more than your own.[/quote]

I will be ecstatic (and shocked) if and when they ever stop taking statistics based on race - but they really need to do so. It’s just another item focusing on the differences among us.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
I’ve never blamed every black person for a single thing. A stat that shows that blacks overall has a higher drop out rate doesn’t mean you’re a drop out. People need to study more math and stats so that they can use average statistics - or not get offended by their proper use.

Professor X wrote:
What would the proper use be?[/quote]

Mathematically, there’s no problem talking about an average. For instance, if I talked about the average height of an NBA player, no one would have a problem. Same with the average 40 time of NFL wide receivers. Same with the average salary of a Wall Street investment banker. There’s nothing inherently wrong with talking about “the average person” in some group. But we’re sensitive about race.

There is a problem, logically, with taking an average and trying to make an individual conform to it. Particularly when you have more specific information about an individual.

There’s also a problem with trying to infer average information about a group by generalizing from unscientific anecdotes or samples.

At the risk of starting a new argument, there’s nothing inherently wrong with statistical discrimination in a situation in which it’s costly or difficult to obtain more specific information in comparison to any benefit the further information could give you. To rephrase an example I’ve used previously, if I were walking down the street with my wife and son, and I saw a couple skinheads walking toward me, the cost-to-benefit ratio of finding out information about those guys walking on the street means that I’m going to look at them askance, and maybe cross the street…

431

You know, all this stuff about racism might simply be related to climate.

People in temperate (cooler) zones tend to be more ambitious and clever, simply because they had to be to survive the climate.

Look at Koreans: the weather is terrible and you’re surrounded by 3 belligerent (historically) powers. No wonder they’re so smart! Japanese, northern Chinese, northern Europeans all tend to be smarter on average than the rest of the world simply by survival of the fittest.

Let’s face it: if its always warm and all you have to do to eat is pluck a mango off of a branch, you’re less likely to be driven to get a Phd.

432

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
You know, all this stuff about racism might simply be related to climate.

People in temperate (cooler) zones tend to be more ambitious and clever, simply because they had to be to survive the climate.

Look at Koreans: the weather is terrible and you’re surrounded by 3 belligerent (historically) powers. No wonder they’re so smart! Japanese, northern Chinese, northern Europeans all tend to be smarter on average than the rest of the world simply by survival of the fittest.

Let’s face it: if its always warm and all you have to do to eat is pluck a mango off of a branch, you’re less likely to be driven to get a Phd.[/quote]

Or it may just be related to…racism.

I particularly like your ‘northern European’ qualifier.

Racism and bigotry all nicely contained in a post about…the weather!

433

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:

Understandable position - but I’m not trying to have it both ways. So how do you think it should be? Not how you think it should be “if [you’re] going to be held as a representation”, but how you think it should be, period.

[/quote]

You, personally, can claim whatever stance you want, but until you admit that the world groups us all together as a singular entity, this discussion is pointless. That would have to stop BEFORE you claimed that “white America” holds no responsibility. You can’t claim no responsibility while the rest of the world relates me and every black man like me to every negative black image they see on tv or in the newspaper.

Do you understand that I have to prove myself constantly when it comes to what I do? And I don’t mean the simple “is he good enough” situation that any professional goes through. I have to get past the initial assumption that I’m not even a doctor while in scrubs. I have had mothers sit there in the clinic room, watch me examine their children, and then ask if I am a doctor as if they are just making sure. Do you experience this?

Of course not. You’ve already written that because of your name on the door, people would never do that to you…as if you don’t get that I have my name on the door as well.

As long as the collective American middle finger is pointed directly at us, expect for quite a few fingers to be pointed right back at “you”.

It would take someone with no ability to see to misunderstand this.

434

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:

Understandable position - but I’m not trying to have it both ways. So how do you think it should be? Not how you think it should be “if [you’re] going to be held as a representation”, but how you think it should be, period.

Professor X wrote:

You, personally, can claim whatever stance you want, but until you admit that the world groups us all together as a singular entity, this discussion is pointless. That would have to stop BEFORE you claimed that “white America” holds no responsibility. You can’t claim no responsibility while the rest of the world relates me and every black man like me to every negative black image they see on tv or in the newspaper.[/quote]

I’m sure it’s a shock to some people reading this that the entire world other than me is doing what you’re describing. The world doesn’t do anything. Individual people do things. And it’s no more correct to aggregate your individual anecdotes and attribute the supposed characteristics variously to “the world”, “society”, and/or “White America” than it is for someone else to aggregate his individual experiences with black and attribute them to all blacks.

[quote]
Professor X wrote:

Do you understand that I have to prove myself constantly when it comes to what I do? And I don’t mean the simple “is he good enough” situation that any professional goes through. I have to get past the initial assumption that I’m not even a doctor while in scrubs. I have had mothers sit there in the clinic room, watch me examine their children, and then ask if I am a doctor as if they are just making sure. Do you experience this?[/quote]

This is going to sound harsh, but so be it: Assuming arguendo that this happens to you every day, for racist reasons only - this hurts you how? This high hurdle you have to surpass to do your job is that people aren’t properly respectful and don’t assume you’re a doctor? What happens after you introduce yourself as “Dr. Professor X”? Do they demand to see your license and slow you down until you prove you’re really a doctor? Do they refuse to let you treat them? (And if they did, I’m assuming you’re like other doctors and would charge them for the visit anyway, and thus make room in your practice for more patients, which I assume aren’t hard to find.)

The point is no one is creating an impediment that actually affects your performance of your job. If that’s one of the biggest complaints people have related to racism, we really have come a long way in a short time (and again, this puts aside any issues of subjective perceptions).

Given, it’s not right in a grand cosmic sense - but what’s the average level of education of the people who are damning you with the subtle racism of low expectations? I’m curious as to your perception on this.

ADDENDUM: Given the original premise of this thread, how would you value the cost of this?

[quote]
Professor X wrote:
Of course not. You’ve already written that because of your name on the door, people would never do that to you…as if you don’t get that I have my name on the door as well.[/quote]

If you recall, I also said that they come to me and I’m sitting in my office, which I don’t share, typing on my computer - they don’t sit in a waiting area in which various people, from legal assistants to paralegals to lawyers come in at various times to talk to them and see what’s wrong. It’s a different set up. I’ve never even heard of a minority attorney at a corporation or big firm have this sort of experience at work.

[quote]
Professor X wrote:
As long as the collective American middle finger is pointed directly at us, expect for quite a few fingers to be pointed right back at “you”.[/quote]

I’ve never seen a collective finger before.

[quote]
Professor X wrote:
It would take someone with no ability to see to misunderstand this.[/quote]

It would take a willful misperception to think that speaking of “White America” or “society” as if it’s a construct accomplishes anything. The only things any individual can change are his own mind and his own behavior.

435

BB, surely an individual can be an agent for change?While in the narrowest sense of the idea,I agree with what you’re saying (in respect to individual change),do you not think that the perspective you describe is extremely limiting?

436

More pictures of Hip Hop representatives in suits.

Amazing.

437

There must be something wrong.

Maybe they didn’t have anything else to wear.

438

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:
BB, surely an individual can be an agent for change?While in the narrowest sense of the idea,I agree with what you’re saying (in respect to individual change),do you not think that the perspective you describe is extremely limiting?
[/quote]

Of course he can - but he can’t make anyone else change. You can’t make anyone else change unless you have the force of law behind you. And even then you can’t make them change their minds.

The best thing I can do is lead by example, take care of my kids and teach them properly. I can also donate time and money to help. I can argue for what I think it right, and hopefully inspire change.

But again, I can’t make anyone else change. And therein lies the crux of the responsibility issue.

439

Ah, that’s more like it. Now you can be scared.

What a thug! Disgusting.

440

[quote]meangenes wrote:
Ah, that’s more like it. Now you can be scared.

What a thug! Disgusting.[/quote]

Actually, I don’t consider that thug. Shirt’s too nice.

Edit: And he seems to realize which way the hat bill is supposed to face.

Basically, he looks more Fresh Prince than thug.