What Is Truth?

[quote]extol7extol wrote:
Hello vroom. Apparently you CAN tell what “absolute truth” is by examining the interpretations of men. You just examined the interpretation of the poster above, and then proceeded to state the “absolute truth” that we can’t tell what absolute truth is by examining the interpretations of men. You say “we” can’t. But “you” just did.[/quote]

Absolute truth? Something I’ve said is an absolute truth? Holy shit! I find that very hard to believe.

I really don’t think the fact that people make statements of fact qualifies those statements as absolute truths.

Why don’t you define what you mean when you say “absolute truth”?

That the Christian mass or liturgy was practiced by the apostles first, and then they formally wrote the Gospel to be the replacement for the Torah reading. You denegrated religious traditions as being warned against in the bible, when in fact the Gospel was written expressely to be a part of the new Christian temple traditions.

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
mertdawg wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
The question simply is: “What Is Truth?”

http://www.miskatonic.org/godel.html

And by the way, you ducked out of the hijacked Intelligent Design thread rather conveniently.

No I didn’t. I made all of the points I wished to make there and chose not to post anymore because it was pointless to do so. I am not sure what you are implying here…?

[/quote]

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Absolute truth (which has to exist)[/quote]

Why?

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
The Bible … is internally consistent. [/quote]

Riiiight.

The thing here is that Einstein wanted a set of universal truths that could be interchanged from any system to any other.

The answer is that I can calculate what YOUR measurement of the object should be, and you can calculate what MY perception of the object should be, so the length of the object is NOT a fundamental truth, but rather the ability to transform the length mathematically from any frame to any other. The object has “x” length in reference frame 1, and “y” length in reference frame 2 and we BOTH would totally agree on these (ideally).

[quote]Mordred wrote:
Still waiting for an answer to a simple question.

An object is traveling at .9c relative to a fixed point. We both measure its length, but from two different reference frames. We use the same methods and equipment. We get two different results. Which one of us is right?[/quote]

I think I would have to call that a middle school level word game like “all absolutes are false”. I mean, I remember thinking that circularly impossible arguments like that were real cool back in 7th grade.

[quote]
Hello vroom. Apparently you CAN tell what “absolute truth” is by examining the interpretations of men. You just examined the interpretation of the poster above, and then proceeded to state the “absolute truth” that we can’t tell what absolute truth is by examining the interpretations of men. You say “we” can’t. But “you” just did.[/quote]

In 1931, the Czech-born mathematician Kurt G?del demonstrated that within any given branch of mathematics, there would always be some propositions that couldn’t be proven either true or false using the rules and axioms … of that mathematical branch itself.

You might be able to prove every conceivable statement about numbers within a system by going outside the system in order to come up with new rules and axioms, but by doing so you’ll only create a larger system with its own unprovable statements. The implication is that all logical system of any complexity are, by definition, incomplete; each of them contains, at any given time, more true statements than it can possibly prove according to its own defining set of rules.

G?del’s Theorem has been used to argue that a computer can never be as smart as a human being because the extent of its knowledge is limited by a fixed set of axioms, whereas people can discover unexpected truths …

It plays a part in modern linguistic theories, which emphasize the power of language to come up with new ways to express ideas. And it has been taken to imply that you’ll never entirely understand yourself, since your mind, like any other closed system, can only be sure of what it knows about itself by relying on what it knows about itself.

Boyer, History of Mathematics
G?del showed that within a rigidly logical system such as Russell and Whitehead had developed for arithmetic, propositions can be formulated that are undecidable or undemonstrable within the axioms of the system.

That is, within the system, there exist certain clear-cut statements that can neither be proved or disproved. Hence one cannot, using the usual methods, be certain that the axioms of arithmetic will not lead to contradictions …

It appears to foredoom hope of mathematical certitude through use of the obvious methods. Perhaps doomed also, as a result, is the ideal of science - to devise a set of axioms from which all phenomena of the external world can be deduced.

Nagel and Newman, G?del’s Proof
He proved it impossible to establish the internal logical consistency of a very large class of deductive systems - elementary arithmetic, for example - unless one adopts principles of reasoning so complex that their internal consistency is as open to doubt as that of the systems themselves …

Second main conclusion is … G?del showed that Principia, or any other system within which arithmetic can be developed, is essentially incomplete. In other words, given any consistent set of arithmetical axioms, there are true mathematical statements that cannot be derived from the set…

Even if the axioms of arithmetic are augmented by an indefinite number of other true ones, there will always be further mathematical truths that are not formally derivable from the augmented set.

Rucker, Infinity and the Mind
The proof of G?del’s Incompleteness Theorem is so simple, and so sneaky, that it is almost embarassing to relate. His basic procedure is as follows:

Someone introduces G?del to a UTM, a machine that is supposed to be a Universal Truth Machine, capable of correctly answering any question at all.

G?del asks for the program and the circuit design of the UTM. The program may be complicated, but it can only be finitely long. Call the program P(UTM) for Program of the Universal Truth Machine.

Smiling a little, G?del writes out the following sentence: “The machine constructed on the basis of the program P(UTM) will never say that this sentence is true.” Call this sentence G for G?del. Note that G is equivalent to: “UTM will never say G is true.”

Now G?del laughs his high laugh and asks UTM whether G is true or not.

If UTM says G is true, then “UTM will never say G is true” is false. If “UTM will never say G is true” is false, then G is false (since G = “UTM will never say G is true”). So if UTM says G is true, then G is in fact false, and UTM has made a false statement. So UTM will never say that G is true, since UTM makes only true statements.

We have established that UTM will never say G is true. So “UTM will never say G is true” is in fact a true statement. So G is true (since G = “UTM will never say G is true”).

“I know a truth that UTM can never utter,” G?del says. “I know that G is true. UTM is not truly universal.”
Think about it - it grows on you …

With his great mathematical and logical genius, G?del was able to find a way (for any given P(UTM)) actually to write down a complicated polynomial equation that has a solution if and only if G is true.

So G is not at all some vague or non-mathematical sentence. G is a specific mathematical problem that we know the answer to, even though UTM does not! So UTM does not, and cannot, embody a best and final theory of mathematics …

Although this theorem can be stated and proved in a rigorously mathematical way, what it seems to say is that rational thought can never penetrate to the final ultimate truth … But, paradoxically, to understand G?del’s proof is to find a sort of liberation.

For many logic students, the final breakthrough to full understanding of the Incompleteness Theorem is practically a conversion experience. This is partly a by-product of the potent mystique G?del’s name carries. But, more profoundly, to understand the essentially labyrinthine nature of the castle is, somehow, to be free of it.

[quote]extol7extol wrote:
Also, when Christ says no one comes to the Father except through Him, He is being VERY inherently exclusionary.
[/quote]

I am not totally sure of your point. Paul told Timothy “Christ died to save everyone, and especially (but not exclusively) those who believed in Him.” Right? Or how do you interpret that, I mean there might be other human interpretations of that.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Steveo,

Stop getting your panties in a wad. I’m not arguing that there is no truth in the bible or in other such writings.

I’m simply pointing out that those writings were created by men and are interpreted by ourselves.

There are at least two people between whatever truth may have been revealed and what you are seeing within it.

Now, I don’t know about you, but I place very little faith in mankind with respect to our ability to accurately convey information and to accurately absorb what is conveyed.

Points such as this are difficult for some of those that choose a literal interpretation of the bible, but that is not my fault.

Sometimes you have to accept the realities of the world around you, and that it is the way it is, not the way that you want it to be.[/quote]

The Bible is the inspired word of God. God has protected His word from corruption and from man. Unless you have God’s Holy Spirit in you, you cannot understand the Bible. The Spirit works through the written word in believers. To everyone else, the word of God is foolishness.

The Bible is God’s true and complete revelation of Himself to the world. It cannot be taken away from or added to.

[quote]JPBear wrote:
The Bible is the inspired word of God. God has protected His word from corruption and from man. Unless you have God’s Holy Spirit in you, you cannot understand the Bible. The Spirit works through the written word in believers. To everyone else, the word of God is foolishness.

The Bible is God’s true and complete revelation of Himself to the world. It cannot be taken away from or added to.
[/quote]

JPBear,

with all due respect, but this is the mindset that makes religion so dangerous.

This is a set of ideas that makes you build an intellectual cage, enter it and throw away the key.

The bible says there is a God, which means it must be true because God does not lie and the bible was inspired by Him and since the bible is not lying there must be a God…

Repeat until failure…

[quote]orion wrote:

JPBear,

with all due respect, but this is the mindset that makes religion so dangerous.

This is a set of ideas that makes you build an intellectual cage, enter it and throw away the key.

The bible says there is a God, which means it must be true because God does not lie and the bible was inspired by Him and since the bible is not lying there must be a God…

Repeat until failure… [/quote]

Exactly…like I said - foolishness

The Spirit is very real to me. I was the most unlikely convert in the world, a proud atheist despising all religion up until the moment the Spirit filled me and basically took me by force. This is as real to me as the conversation we are having. I sincerely hope you will understand what I mean one day.

“All flesh is as grass,
And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass.
The grass withers,
And its flower falls away,
But the word of the Lord endures forever.”

1 Peter 2:24-25

[quote]vroom wrote:
Why don’t you define what you mean when you say “absolute truth”?[/quote]

Truth that is objective and universal. Truth that implies an objective and universal standard by which people make evaluations of what is true and what is false, of what is good and what is evil, etc.

Since the non-Christian fails to
establish such a standard, and since he fails to establish how he would know such a standard, his references to evil are meaningless and unintelligible.

That is, evil is meaningless and undefined without an objective and absolute standard of right and wrong, good and evil, and this standard can only be the God of the Bible.

For example, if the non-Christian claims that murder is wrong because it violates the
right to life of the victim, we only need to ask why the victim has any right to life? Who
gives him this so-called right? The non-Christian? Who says that there is anything as a
right in the first place? Non-Christians have tried many arguments, but all of them have
been exposed as foolish and unjustified.

On the other hand, the Christian affirms that murder is wrong, immoral, and evil because God forbids murder: “Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed;
for in the image of God has God made man” (Genesis 9:6); God explicitly disallows it when he says, “You shall not murder” (Exodus 20:13).

It is consistent with the Christian
worldview to say that murder is evil and that the murderer must be held accountable, but the non-Christian can never justify the same claim. He cannot even authoritatively define murder.

[quote]JPBear wrote:
The Spirit is very real to me. I was the most unlikely convert in the world,[/quote]

I rather doubt that.

Was it anything like in the movie “The Entity?” …bow-wow-wow-wow-wow…

I sincerely hope you’re staging the most elaborate April fool joke in T-Nation memory.

[quote]The Bible is the inspired word of God. God has protected His word from corruption and from man. Unless you have God’s Holy Spirit in you, you cannot understand the Bible. The Spirit works through the written word in believers. To everyone else, the word of God is foolishness.

The Bible is God’s true and complete revelation of Himself to the world. It cannot be taken away from or added to.[/quote]

JP,

While I may be willing to allow that the bible is INSPIRED by God, it was not God that has written down words on paper for us to muddle through.

Nowhere have I seen evidence that the bible is not corruptable either by the interpretations of man or even by the machinations of man.

Nor would I suggest that the word of the bible, or other religious text, is foolishness, whether someone is a believer or not.

The bible contains a lot of good, even for the person who does not at some point in time believe in God. After all, it is always possible for a non-believer to become a believer!

Now, as to a complete revelation, I suspect there is very very much more to any all encompassing God than that which is contained in the bible. The bible merely contains a few rules and some discussion about different types of behavior, as well as how we should comport ourselves in order to ensure a desireable afterlife.

You are of course welcome to form your own interpretation of what the bible contains, but the mere fact that you do so, and that other believers form different interpretations merely proves my point.

The word of God, whatever it might be, is not something that is universally understood, even by believers. Are you saying you, personally, are the only person on the planet that has the true interpretation, because you are the only true believer?

I don’t imagine you are.

So, the question remains, what, really, is the truth?

I am not denying anything, or arguing against the existence of a truth, I personally just don’t believe that mankind is capable of containing a mental understanding of any absolute truth that would be defined by God.

If we were, we wouldn’t be living lives full of strife as we have through all history, would we?

[quote]For example, if the non-Christian claims that murder is wrong because it violates the
right to life of the victim, we only need to ask why the victim has any right to life? Who
gives him this so-called right? The non-Christian? Who says that there is anything as a
right in the first place? Non-Christians have tried many arguments, but all of them have
been exposed as foolish and unjustified.

On the other hand, the Christian affirms that murder is wrong, immoral, and evil because God forbids murder: “Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed;
for in the image of God has God made man” (Genesis 9:6); God explicitly disallows it when he says, “You shall not murder” (Exodus 20:13).

It is consistent with the Christian
worldview to say that murder is evil and that the murderer must be held accountable, but the non-Christian can never justify the same claim. He cannot even authoritatively define murder.[/quote]

I love when religious people try to proclaim the thoughts of the non-religious as invalid and useless.

Considering that there are multiple religions, I wonder if you are declaring all others false and worthless, other than your own of course.

In any case, this might surprise you, but murder is wrong because I believe it is wrong. Don’t you believe that yourself?

Isn’t belief very closely related to faith?

Are you suggesting that those that aren’t overtly religious in fact can have no beliefs and can have no faith?

You can be as devout as you want to be, but there are others with faith, believers, who have different beliefs than you. How do you explain that in the context of a universal truth?

I’m pretty sure I’ll see the second coming before you can sqaure away the fact that so many people of faith have different beliefs than you.

[quote]helga wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
You have the right to do this, but that doesn’t really contribute to this thread.

You started this thread about truth and your belief that God is the absolute truth. Being a christian you must believe that the bible is the word of God and therefore a direct link to your belief of what absolute truth is. I have simply stated that I believe that there is too much potential for human intervention for every single word of the bible to be taken as the word of God.

My point in all my posts is that I belive God is the absolute truth, I just dont think that we have Gods absolute truth accurately recorded in the books that have been interpreted and selected by man to form the bible.[/quote]

I appreciate your clarifications and your blief in God as being absolute truth. That’s good!

The problem with having a problem with God’s Word is that if the Bible is not God’s absolute word, then where exactly do we go for God’s absolute truth on things? If we don’t have a declaration from God in its absolute sense, then we have no choice but to go to man (others or ourselves) to learn “the way.” The problem is that our senses have been damaged by the Fall (Genesis 3)and thus cannot comprehend spiritual truths on our own.

I have thought long and hard on these issues, as I must admit I wasn’t a Christian all of my life. I came to faith almost 11 years ago after living a long time in unbelief.

If God is God – the Creator of everything you see and all that is in it, then couldn’t God have preserved His own Word using human instruments? Is anything too hard for God?

Just something to consider…

[quote]Mordred wrote:
Still waiting for an answer to a simple question.

An object is traveling at .9c relative to a fixed point. We both measure its length, but from two different reference frames. We use the same methods and equipment. We get two different results. Which one of us is right?[/quote]

Sorry, I must have missed this with all of the back and forth. I didn’t mean to.

I will try to answer, but please clarify the question for me. I am not completely understanding the question itself. I will be glad to look at it and then try to answer.

Thanks…

[quote]hankr wrote:
A truth is a factual statement about a physical object or states of affairs in the physical world. It can be shown to be true via presentation of evidence, freely examined and tested by knowledgable skeptics.

Arguing about the truth, science, or anything else with a person of faith is a waste of time, to the extent that his faith is concerned with the subject at hand. You can muster all the facts, evidence, etc that you like, and it makes no difference, because you are concerned with the external, physical world, where the faithful are concerned with protecting their faith, regardlesss of the lengths to which they must go to do it. (God hid the dinosaur bones to trick us!) The truth is beside the point for these people.

I no longer argue anything with the believers. It’s like trying to teach a pig to sing. It’s a waste of time and it annoys the pig.

So – Why would a religious person post about the truth? He is only concerned with the parts of it that he can manipulate to bolster his beliefs.

I have come to believe that humanity will really begin to make progress only when we throw off the primitive yoke of superstition, and spend our time taking care of each other and our planet, not worrying about pleasing some ghost in the sky.

“Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers. It tells people to go out and stick their noses in other people’s business.”

      Jesse Ventura

[/quote]

Hankr,

I was thinking of not replying to your post, but then I thought others would think I was avoiding something.

First of all, thank you for your candid post asserting, what amounts to an insulting diatribe against people of faith, combined with a jab or two about the faithful’s lack of concern for the truth.

Let me make something very clear to you. While I cannot speak for every believer in Jesus, I can certainly speak for myself. I am VERY CONCERNED with the truth and the testing of that against God’s Word. I have no time for what is not the truth. I lived that way for 36 years before coming to the truth, so sir, you are completely and utterly off base with this.

What I have found, in fact, is that God’s Word has been truthful in every and any area in which it speaks. I challenge you to find a factual or “scientific” statemetn in the Bible (and yes, there are many) and show me where God went wrong!

The faithful that I know are regular people with regular jobs living here in New York among regular people. We have placed our eternal destiny in the hands of our God and trust him. That does not mean that we live in some sort of spaced out bubble while shutting down our brains. I guess it is helpful to you and those who share your hostility toward God and the people of God [this is a conclusion I am making based on the tenor of your post, so excuse me if you don’t agree here]to dismiss fiath and “organized religion” so you don’t have to face your own sin.

What are you going to do about your sin? Do you really thnk God will just wink at it?

“…I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me” John 15:6

“Enter ye in at the straita gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14Becauseb strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.”

I do hope and pray that you find it! Jesus died for you!

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
extol7extol wrote:
Also, when Christ says no one comes to the Father except through Him, He is being VERY inherently exclusionary.

I am not totally sure of your point. Paul told Timothy “Christ died to save everyone, and especially (but not exclusively) those who believed in Him.” Right? Or how do you interpret that, I mean there might be other human interpretations of that.
[/quote]

Paul did NOT tell Timothy that Christ died to save everyone:

“for to this we also labor and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Savior of all men, especially of believers” (1 Timothy 4:10).

“Savior” here means PRESERVER. Notice that it does not say that CHRIST is the Savior of all men; it says that GOD is the Savior of all men. It is talking about God the Father’s preservation of His creatures, with special preservation of those who believe.

Those who pervert and twist this passage by saying that it teaches that Christ died to save all without exception say things like: “He COULD be the Savior of everyone.”

But of course, that’s not what the passage says. It says that God IS the Savior of all men, not COULD BE. What does “Savior of all men” mean in this passage? But, of course, this betrays their heresy. According to them, Christ COULD be the Savior of everyone, if only everyone would LET Christ be their Savior. The poor weakling “christ”, wishing he could save everyone but thwarted in his wishes by man, who is more powerful than the blood of Christ.

In stark contrast to this, the true Christ of the Bible saves all whom He represented at the cross, and damns all those whom He did NOT represent. True Christians boast in the cross of Christ ALONE (Galatians 6:14), for they believe that His cross-work makes the ALONE difference between heaven and hell.

Those for whom Christ died, God will in time cause them to REPENT of believing a false gospel of salvation conditioned on the sinner, and to BELIEVE in the true gospel of God’s promise to save His people conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ alone. He has created the aforementioned as vessels of mercy which He has prepared beforehand for glory (Romans 9:23).

On the other hand, all those for whom Christ did not die, God will actively harden them in their unbelief so that He may justly punish them. He has created them as vessels of wrath and He has fitted these vessels for destruction. God is showing His wrath and power in these vessels (Romans 9:22). God created these vessels of wrath in order to make known to the vessels of mercy that it is the cross of Christ ALONE which makes them to differ from the vessels of wrath (Romans 9:23).

[quote]extol7extol wrote:
Truth that is objective and universal. Truth that implies an objective and universal standard by which people make evaluations of what is true and what is false, of what is good and what is evil, etc.[/quote]

There seems to exist no such thing, then.

[quote]Since the non-Christian fails to
establish such a standard, and since he fails to establish how he would know such a standard, his references to evil are meaningless and unintelligible.[/quote]

The Christian’s standard is also flawed, because based on a being for which there is no evidence of his existence. Since the “absolute source” of the truth is in doubt, the there can be no absolute truth from that path.

Ridiculous. It is not that hard to come up with pretty universal “moral rules” that pretty much everyone who’s sane would agree with.

The other problem is that every other religion will want to substitute it’s god for yours as the standard.

[quote]For example, if the non-Christian claims that murder is wrong because it violates the
right to life of the victim, we only need to ask why the victim has any right to life? Who
gives him this so-called right? The non-Christian? Who says that there is anything as a
right in the first place? Non-Christians have tried many arguments, but all of them have
been exposed as foolish and unjustified.[/quote]

Somehow, I doubt you’ve spent much time researching that topic.

[quote]On the other hand, the Christian affirms that murder is wrong, immoral, and evil because God forbids murder: “Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed;
for in the image of God has God made man” (Genesis 9:6); God explicitly disallows it when he says, “You shall not murder” (Exodus 20:13). [/quote]

Find a digital version of your Bible (whatever flavor you prefer) and run a text search on it for “he shall surely be put to death.” For someone who forbids murder, god is a surprisingly big fan of the death penalty.

[quote]It is consistent with the Christian
worldview to say that murder is evil and that the murderer must be held accountable, but the non-Christian can never justify the same claim. He cannot even authoritatively define murder.[/quote]

Murder: To kill intentionally and with premeditation.

See, that wasn’t hard at all.