[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Thanks to Vroom and his companions, I am starting this thread to gather your ideas to this one question. This question was asked by the Roman governor Pontius Pilate to Jesus Christ just before He was sent to the cross. It really is the question of the ages.
The question simply is: “What Is Truth?”
You are asking a question posed to Jesus Christ to T-Nation members? How did Jesus respond?
MB
[quote]aikigreg wrote:
Personally, I find truth in the flying Spaghetti Monster…[/quote]
Precisely my point…
MB
My life is a little strange at the moment in that although I want nothing to do with the church as an organisation I believe that God is the ultimate truth. I do not however place too much emphasis on anything that is written in the bible.
There has been too much human intervention in the writing of the bible, and in the decision as to what should make it into the bible.
Further, how can anyone place too much respect in a document that calls both homosexuality and eating shell fish an abomination. To all those people out there that were previously saying that homosexually is a sin, do you tell your mate that if you see him eating a shrimp cocktail? I guess that it is lucky that I am straight and allergic to prawns.
[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
The question simply is: “What Is Truth?”
[/quote]
http://www.miskatonic.org/godel.html
And by the way, you ducked out of the hijacked Intelligent Design thread rather conveniently.
someone answer my question
I would have to say the premise number 1 is that humans have free will and the universe is not deterministic.
This comes from the following argument:
The instant you conclude that the universe is deterministic, you must also conclude that you had no choice but to come to that conclusion, whether it is logically valid or not.
As a result, all logical constructs fail in a deterministic universe.
From here, we come to the questions of 1) What is different about the laws of physics for a being with free will than for a being/object that does not have free will? And…
What is the physical mechanism that allows for free will? And…
What are the implications of having free will.
I can only speculate.
I don’t know.
Number 1 cetainly has something to do with a being’s/object’s ability to
make an observation that requires the universe to be in one quantum state or another. This raises the question of whether the universe needs to have an external/other observer for it to come into existence.
Number 2 (the mechanism)might have something to do with chaos theory, incompleteness, or the quantum nature of the universe, all of which prove that no object in the universe can develop a complete set of rules governing the universe. This raises the question of whether there must be something undefined by the laws of physics and outside of space and time that is the “rulemaker”
Number 3 (the implications) for me are that there are morally right and wrong choices, and humans can not ever know all of the long term implications of our actions.
[quote]bosox4L wrote:
someone answer my question[/quote]
An athiest is someone who doesnt believe in a diety or higher poweer. It is not exclusive of believing in the christian god.
…Or perhaps some sort of Spaghetti monster.
[quote]helga wrote:
bosox4L wrote:
someone answer my question
An athiest is someone who doesnt believe in a diety or higher poweer. It is not exclusive of believing in the christian god.[/quote]
Damn, so I’m just nothing haha?
By looking for “truth” you are violating the way our brain works with language. If you want to describe truth with language you have to be really, REALLY specific about
what
when
where
who
why
Otherwise you are never going to get that physiological / psychological feeling that what you are thinking is in fact TRUE, recognised by the logic centres of your brain.
All you are going to get is internal mental conflict.
Steve, when you as a Christian get a sense of truth, of Gods’ love etc… which I am sure you do, You can’t put it into words, can you?
That is because that is exactly the way the brain works. It’s the way God made us, if you like. The language centres and logic centres have to be utterly specific.
This is the cause of many conflicts in the world because when people try to put things into words - things that really cannot be put into words, things that are so general and fuzzy - there is “slippage” of meaning in the words, and lack of specifics, and room for conflict.
Yet I will bet the experience of Truth, of what is true and right, is universal in all mankind, of all faiths and backgrounds. IF a person realises it.
Hard to put into words though.
Every so often someone puts into words something so wonderful that it is instantly recognised as true.
“Treat others as you yourself would be treated” - now there is an incredible truth, if everyone lived by that rule it would be a wonderful place.
I believe through history that when a person speaks such wisdom, they are regarded as a prophet of some sort. I would not expect all prophets to be perfect all the time in all that they say, however - further potential for conflict. Especially if you elevate that prophet to godlike status and take all the bad with the good, or worse, focus on the bad.
By “bad”, I mean things that do not ring true in the hearts of man. Philosophies based in fear and revenge rather than in beauty and forgiveness.
Also, languages themselves have slippage … things are lost in translation from one language to another. Which is possibly why a religion might be strongly favoured in one language than in another.
I am not thinking of any specific religion or prophet, however. This is just a general truth.
Language is complex stuff. In giving us the power to communicate the world about us, it has taken us away from that animal state of pure knowing of truth, the simple state of experiencing the world through senses and non-language. If you meditate, and can start to experience the world in a non-language state, you might begin to feel truth … focus on the vision and sounds and smells around you instead of thinking in terms of words, “thoughts”, logic.
We used to think that because we knew “1”, we knew “1 and 1 is 2”.
We are starting to realise we have to learn a lot more about “and”
Love that quote … mathematics is one way the logic centre of our brain can experience pure, beautiful truth. And why some people just love mathematics to death. And science (although science is more fuzzy).
“In the beginning there was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”
If there is a God, then He made us this way, and you can see that the importance of the language centre of our brain has been recognised for all history.
42
[quote]bosox4L wrote:
I just have a question, kind of off topic but maybe some that have posted on this thread can give me some insight. What is an atheist? Is it someone who does not believe in God? Or someone that believes in God but does not follow a particular religon? I am asking this because currently I don’t follow any religon and have not pretty much my whole life, I mean I have gone to church a few times but that’s it, But I believe that there is a God.[/quote]
Webster’s Online Dictionary Definition:
Main Entry: athe?ist
Pronunciation: 'A-thE-ist
Function: noun
: one who believes that there is no deity
So you’re not an atheist!
[quote]vroom wrote:
Steveo,
You should think about the issue of minors…
The law has been written to protect people that have not yet reached some level of emotional and physical maturity.
However, you can be sure that some people are physically and emotionally mature prior to turning 18. More dangerously, you can be sure that some others are not yet mature enough at 18.
So, my question to you, is what is more important?
Should a person respect the law, but not the intent? Should someone respect the intent, but not the law? Should someone respect both the intent and the law?
Finally, and to make things more complex, who determines and how is it determined that someone is physically and emotionally mature?
How was the age of 18 arrived at for such purposes, to declare that one had arrived at adulthood?
Finally, lets be clear, I am not arguing against the concept of considering young people minors who need care and protection. I just don’t think things are as clear cut as people like to think they are.
Luckily, the law is simple and enforceable even if the underlying situation is not. However, what does that imply abour our laws?[/quote]
Vroom,
I didn’t want the discussion on Truth to be obscured by this example that I gave on moral relativism. It probably wasn’t the best example, but hey at 1 AM it was the thing I thought of. [However, I have to tell you bro that your “protesting too much” scares me a bit].
My point in using this was to say that just because someone holds moral “truth” for themselves, doesn’t make it capital “T” Truth. In other words, moral relativism is corrupt. It cannot work, because it cannot produce the absolute truth in the area in question.
Absolute truth (which has to exist) has to originate from an absolute truth giver. Othewise it cannot be truth because relative truth is not truth.
Another example is someone who is color blind. Try as they might, they cannot see red for example. So their “truth” when looking at an American Flag is that they see white stars on a blue background, with white and grey stripes. To them (their ‘truth’) is this description. However, the flag in fact (Absolute Truth) has white and RED stripes [please don’t be critical of the science here – I am not an expert on color blindness, but I think the example fits]. Truth because someone says so , or because “it works” or because of our feelings, is not necessarily truth.
[quote]deanec wrote:
dermo wrote:
It is the height of egotism to assume that only your religion can reach the Aboslute Truth. Fundamentalism, whether Christian or Muslim, is inherently exclusionary. Jesus was about love and acceptance, not hate and intolerance.
Yet did not this same Jesus say “I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but by me.”? Sounds pretty exclusionary to me…
[/quote]
Excellent point!
Yes Jesus is about love because God is love. However, Jesus is about truth as Deanec has pointed out. There are many passages in the Bible where Jesus asserts Himself as Absolute Truth and that following Him is the “only way” and that ALL OTHER WAYS LEAD to the Lake of Fire.
So for a Christian actually following Christ, this IS the only way. God is absolute truth and His Word is absolute truth.
This does not mean, however, as some have posted, that we “check our brains at the door,” because my faith in God and His Word is based upon faith, but also there are many many proofs of God’s truth if you only would look at it objectively; fulfilled prophecy is a good place to start.
[quote]masterblaster wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
Thanks to Vroom and his companions, I am starting this thread to gather your ideas to this one question. This question was asked by the Roman governor Pontius Pilate to Jesus Christ just before He was sent to the cross. It really is the question of the ages.
The question simply is: “What Is Truth?”
You are asking a question posed to Jesus Christ to T-Nation members? How did Jesus respond?
MB[/quote]
Good question. Actually the “response” came before the question. Here is the context starting with John 18:34:
Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me? 35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done? 36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. 37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice. 38 Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.
Basically Jesus’ claim to be the Messiah – the deliverer for the sin of mankind – was the truth being asserted. Jesus is saying that those who ‘hear’ truth will ‘hear’ Jesus’ voice, because as the Son of God, Jesus is truth. Then came Pilate’s question, showing obviously that he did not “hear” Jesus’ voice and thus was not one of those whom Jesus was speaking that would ‘hear’ truth.
Interestingly enough, some of the Roman guards at the foot of the cross came to the truth after Jesus’ death:
Matthew 27:54
Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
[quote]helga wrote:
My life is a little strange at the moment in that although I want nothing to do with the church as an organisation I believe that God is the ultimate truth. I do not however place too much emphasis on anything that is written in the bible.
There has been too much human intervention in the writing of the bible, and in the decision as to what should make it into the bible.
Further, how can anyone place too much respect in a document that calls both homosexuality and eating shell fish an abomination. To all those people out there that were previously saying that homosexually is a sin, do you tell your mate that if you see him eating a shrimp cocktail? I guess that it is lucky that I am straight and allergic to prawns.[/quote]
You would if he were an Orthodox Jew! My friend, the Bible is written in context. The Kosher Laws are only for the Nation Israel – the Jewish people. The fact that homosexuality is sin in God’s sight is independent of the Law of Moses and universal. To show this, God repeats this in the New Testament in Romans chapter 1.
Also, if a murderer claims the Bible is not truth because God calls murder a sin, does that make it not the truth? You sort of make my point for me. If we go my man’s thinking, well then homosexuality is just an acceptable alternate lifestyle. In the absence of absolute truth, we can make anyting seem reasonable.
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
The question simply is: “What Is Truth?”
http://www.miskatonic.org/godel.html
And by the way, you ducked out of the hijacked Intelligent Design thread rather conveniently.
[/quote]
No I didn’t. I made all of the points I wished to make there and chose not to post anymore because it was pointless to do so. I am not sure what you are implying here…?
[quote]Magarhe wrote:
By looking for “truth” you are violating the way our brain works with language. If you want to describe truth with language you have to be really, REALLY specific about
what
when
where
who
why
Otherwise you are never going to get that physiological / psychological feeling that what you are thinking is in fact TRUE, recognised by the logic centres of your brain.
All you are going to get is internal mental conflict.
Steve, when you as a Christian get a sense of truth, of Gods’ love etc… which I am sure you do, You can’t put it into words, can you?
That is because that is exactly the way the brain works. It’s the way God made us, if you like. The language centres and logic centres have to be utterly specific.
This is the cause of many conflicts in the world because when people try to put things into words - things that really cannot be put into words, things that are so general and fuzzy - there is “slippage” of meaning in the words, and lack of specifics, and room for conflict.
Yet I will bet the experience of Truth, of what is true and right, is universal in all mankind, of all faiths and backgrounds. IF a person realises it.
Hard to put into words though.
Every so often someone puts into words something so wonderful that it is instantly recognised as true.
“Treat others as you yourself would be treated” - now there is an incredible truth, if everyone lived by that rule it would be a wonderful place.
I believe through history that when a person speaks such wisdom, they are regarded as a prophet of some sort. I would not expect all prophets to be perfect all the time in all that they say, however - further potential for conflict. Especially if you elevate that prophet to godlike status and take all the bad with the good, or worse, focus on the bad.
By “bad”, I mean things that do not ring true in the hearts of man. Philosophies based in fear and revenge rather than in beauty and forgiveness.
Also, languages themselves have slippage … things are lost in translation from one language to another. Which is possibly why a religion might be strongly favoured in one language than in another.
I am not thinking of any specific religion or prophet, however. This is just a general truth.
Language is complex stuff. In giving us the power to communicate the world about us, it has taken us away from that animal state of pure knowing of truth, the simple state of experiencing the world through senses and non-language. If you meditate, and can start to experience the world in a non-language state, you might begin to feel truth … focus on the vision and sounds and smells around you instead of thinking in terms of words, “thoughts”, logic.
We used to think that because we knew “1”, we knew “1 and 1 is 2”.
We are starting to realise we have to learn a lot more about “and”
Love that quote … mathematics is one way the logic centre of our brain can experience pure, beautiful truth. And why some people just love mathematics to death. And science (although science is more fuzzy).
“In the beginning there was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”
If there is a God, then He made us this way, and you can see that the importance of the language centre of our brain has been recognised for all history.
[/quote]
Magarhe,
Excellent post! While I don’t agree with all of what you said, I appreciate the seriousness of the post and the contribution to the thought process here.
I appreciate all of the thought-provoking posts that were made here thus far.
I would encourage you guys that if you are searching for truth, don’t leave the Bible out. You can read it for yourself and then make a decision for yourself about it.
Q: What is Truth?
A: Everything
Great topic!
My thoughts for awhile now have been about absolute truth, individual truths, perception, etc.
I’ve come to the conclusion that each person has a perception of truth, and this is their individual truth. But it is through communication with others and seeing other people’s personal truths that we are able to come to the absolute truth.
Now is this absolute truth even attainable? I have no idea.
And even if an absolute truth doesn’t exist, isn’t that the absolute truth? The logic on this thought doesn’t work out.
If absolute truth doesn’t exist it still exists because this is the truth.
Kinda strange thinking and sometimes I gotta wonder why the hell I even care! 