Besides, in the other thread, I thought you agreed that one’s bio-chem will determine how one develops from those enviromental factors. So, still no choice.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
To be even more clever. The choice to run and risk death isn’t the choice of a free man, because that is an option the slave owner has chosen for the slave. He has allowed the slave the choice of disobedience (running) and possible punishment (death), or obedience. The slave is choosing between the options put to him by the master. So, even while choosing, he is choosing from the choices allowed him. Man I perversly love crushing inspiring talks of freedom in bondage! I’m such a downer.[/quote]
…so what? Such is life. You can choose not to eat or drink, but if you want to live you don’t have a choice. Our very lives are shaped by the limited choices we get from life, parents and society. Having been left with the choice to live as a slave or possibly die a free man is no different…
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Besides, in the other thread, I thought you agreed that one’s bio-chem will determine how one develops from those enviromental factors. So, still no choice.[/quote]
…why does one man stay a slave, and another tries to escape?
[quote]Sloth wrote:
To be even more clever. The choice to run and risk death isn’t the choice of a free man, because that is an option the slave owner has chosen for the slave. He has allowed the slave the choice of disobedience (running) and possible punishment (death), or obedience. The slave is choosing between the options put to him by the master. So, even while choosing, he is choosing from the choices allowed him. Man I perversly love crushing inspiring talks of freedom in bondage! I’m such a downer.[/quote]
…so what? Such is life. You can choose not to eat or drink, but if you want to live you don’t have a choice. Our very lives are shaped by the limited choices we get from life, parents and society. Having been left with the choice to live as a slave or possibly die a free man is no different…
[/quote]
Meh. This is kind of a ‘I’m taking my ball and going home’ kind of response, no?
[quote]Sloth wrote:
To be even more clever. The choice to run and risk death isn’t the choice of a free man, because that is an option the slave owner has chosen for the slave. He has allowed the slave the choice of disobedience (running) and possible punishment (death), or obedience. The slave is choosing between the options put to him by the master. So, even while choosing, he is choosing from the choices allowed him. Man I perversly love crushing inspiring talks of freedom in bondage! I’m such a downer.[/quote]
…so what? Such is life. You can choose not to eat or drink, but if you want to live you don’t have a choice. Our very lives are shaped by the limited choices we get from life, parents and society. Having been left with the choice to live as a slave or possibly die a free man is no different…
[/quote]
Meh. This is kind of a ‘I’m taking my ball and going home’ kind of response, no?[/quote]
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Besides, in the other thread, I thought you agreed that one’s bio-chem will determine how one develops from those enviromental factors. So, still no choice.[/quote]
…why does one man stay a slave, and another tries to escape?
[/quote]
Bio-chem. According to ‘man as nothing more than machine with the illusion of free will crowd,’ at least. In fact, didn’t you just rule out enviromental factors completely? Two grow up on the same plantation. Only one dares to run.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Besides, in the other thread, I thought you agreed that one’s bio-chem will determine how one develops from those enviromental factors. So, still no choice.[/quote]
…why does one man stay a slave, and another tries to escape?
[/quote]
Bio-chem. According to ‘man as nothing more than machine with the illusion of free will crowd,’ at least. In fact, didn’t you just rule out enviromental factors completely? Two grow up on the same plantation. Only one dares to run.[/quote]
…what are those environmental factors, exactly? If one man had a father with a strong sense of justice and fairness, and the other had a broken man for a father; which one would stay and which one would run, do you think?
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Besides, in the other thread, I thought you agreed that one’s bio-chem will determine how one develops from those enviromental factors. So, still no choice.[/quote]
…why does one man stay a slave, and another tries to escape?
[/quote]
Bio-chem. According to ‘man as nothing more than machine with the illusion of free will crowd,’ at least. In fact, didn’t you just rule out enviromental factors completely? Two grow up on the same plantation. Only one dares to run.[/quote]
…what are those environmental factors, exactly? If one man had a father with a strong sense of justice and fairness, and the other had a broken man for a father; which one would stay and which one would run, do you think?
[/quote]
Actually, you never know. Depends on the bio-chem of each son? no? What if we’re talking brothers born of each father?
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Besides, in the other thread, I thought you agreed that one’s bio-chem will determine how one develops from those enviromental factors. So, still no choice.[/quote]
…why does one man stay a slave, and another tries to escape?
[/quote]
Bio-chem. According to ‘man as nothing more than machine with the illusion of free will crowd,’ at least. In fact, didn’t you just rule out enviromental factors completely? Two grow up on the same plantation. Only one dares to run.[/quote]
…what are those environmental factors, exactly? If one man had a father with a strong sense of justice and fairness, and the other had a broken man for a father; which one would stay and which one would run, do you think?
[/quote]
Actually, you never know. Depends on the bio-chem of each son? no? What if we’re talking brothers born of each father? [/quote]
…taking all the variables into account is near to impossible. It still doesn’t mean though that we make choices independant of prior influences due to the simple fact that our personalities are formed by and based on prior influences. We’re unique, yes. But of the past…
…taking all the variables into account is near to impossible. It still doesn’t mean though that we make choices independant of prior influences due to the simple fact that our personalities are formed by and based on prior influences. We’re unique, yes. But of the past…
[/quote]
No, no. I thought the man-as-machince (from here, MAM) contigent believed that man has only the illusion of free will. So his reaction to enviromental stimuli is the only reaction he could have. One son of the freedom loving slave runs, the other doesn’t.
…taking all the variables into account is near to impossible. It still doesn’t mean though that we make choices independant of prior influences due to the simple fact that our personalities are formed by and based on prior influences. We’re unique, yes. But of the past…
[/quote]
No, no. I thought the man-as-machince (from here, MAM) contigent believed that man has only the illusion of free will. So his reaction to enviromental stimuli is the only reaction he could have. One son of the freedom loving slave runs, the other doesn’t.[/quote]
…you wrote this as if my post contradicts yours? Sigh, …are you even listening to me?
[quote]Sloth wrote:
You keep saying choices though. There is no choice if one responds to enviromental conditionals the way his illusion-of-free-will-bio-chem dictates.[/quote]
…that’s what i think. Doesn’t mean he feels that way…
[quote]Sloth wrote:
You keep saying choices though. There is no choice if one responds to enviromental conditionals the way his illusion-of-free-will-bio-chem dictates.[/quote]
Bro you’re so black and white it’s not even funny. Do you think environmental factors and societal factors have any bearing on an individuals decision making? Someone can make a decision, a choice and it can be ENTIRELY because of environmental factors no? Hey sloth, get to the other side of that active volcano. Ok, so you walk around it, what you don’t do is attempt to walk right through the middle, WHY? Because you would die. So you made a decision, but according to your weak logic, you had no choice.
You did have a choice, and I don’t care if your spirit made the decision, or your highly advanced computer brain made it, they both would come to the same conclusion, walking through the middle of that volcano to get to the other side is not a good idea.
It’s not advancing the discussion to take it down the path you are trying to take this thing, both forms of decision making are WAY beyong our ability to know intimately on a concious level. So it really doesn’t matter which “method” one uses to make a decision, the fact remains, humans make decisions, they make choices. To even argue this is rediculous.
So until you take away an individuals ABILITY to make a choice, they are free. Your definition is a historical one, it is what happened in the past, Yet, the same thing is happening now, but you do not call yourself, or myself, or anyone else who for example lives in the US, a slave. Our conditions of slavery are different sure, but no matter, we are still told what to do in certain situations, failure to act in the manner instructed to us results in penalties and punishments. Do you disagree with that?
LOL - slavery thread turned into a discussion of free-will? I love it!
as a bona-fied member of the free will crowd, let me just say that I do believe in free will - it’s what allows a man to choose to be a slave or a free man regardless of his background or experiences.
Veg - can’t I call a helicopter and fly over the volcano? free will rules!!!
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
LOL - slavery thread turned into a discussion of free-will? I love it!
as a bona-fied member of the free will crowd, let me just say that I do believe in free will - it’s what allows a man to choose to be a slave or a free man regardless of his background or experiences.
Veg - can’t I call a helicopter and fly over the volcano? free will rules!!![/quote]
What is your phone does not work becuase of the ash cloud, or you do not have the money to pay for the helicopter flight? Free will is limited.
I personally am a member of free will, and I will say a slave has the free will to not allow the slave owner to control his/her mind or Hope. They might be able to control their actions, but not their mind.