Can someone define it? This should be viewed as a complimentary thread to the what is freedom thread.
So, is slavery “legal ownership” of another human being? Is it forcing a human being to do something against thier will? What if slavery is illegal but someone illegally owns someone. I mean if slavery means someone can’t do what they want, well hell I want to switch places with Hugh Heffner, so am I being persecuted as a slave because Heff won’t let me?
V
No. Slavery implies forced labour. There are thousands of types of slavery, but ALL imply some sort of forced work, either for no income, or an unreasonably small amount (ie: interest amount+food(<-- maybe) for “debt slaves”).
[quote]PAINTRAINDave wrote:
No. Slavery implies forced labour. There are thousands of types of slavery, but ALL imply some sort of forced work, either for no income, or an unreasonably small amount (ie: interest amount+food(<-- maybe) for “debt slaves”).[/quote]
What About chain gangs? Prisoners who are forced to work? Are they slaves or prisoners?
V
V
…there are many, many forms of slavery. There are ones you can accept, and there are others you can’t. We are all slaves in some form or other. We’re especially slaves of mind; the egocult. Once you free yourself from that bondage, the concepts of freedom and slavery are moot…
kewl . . . so if I am free in my mind, my physical slavery will be meaningless . . .awesome!!
…when you’ve become free from your mind it is.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…there are many, many forms of slavery. There are ones you can accept, and there are others you can’t. We are all slaves in some form or other. We’re especially slaves of mind; the egocult. Once you free yourself from that bondage, the concepts of freedom and slavery are moot…[/quote]
I think you are on to something here Ephrem.
You do not beleive in the Bible, but I am thinking you have at least read some of it. I can say I am slave to sin. Not because I want to be, but because my mind is weak. Slavery does not have to be human vs human. It could be the spirit vs flesh.
I can also say I am a slave to Christ. Does Christ treat me bad? No, he wants what is best for me. I would rather be his slave, than someone elses. Being a slave is not always a bad thing, but from what we have seen in history being a slave to men is a bad thing.
I am also a slave to taxes. If I want to not pay my taxes there is a consequence. I would rather pay the taxes and not go to jail.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…when you’ve become free from your mind it is.[/quote]
lombotomies for everyone!! or we could just smoke some weed . . . yep, that’s the solution to slavery right there! oh Yeah . . .
Go ahead and whip me . . . i’ll just have another puff, puff . . . wanna take my family away and sell them to someone else . . . kewl . . . puff, puff, cough . . .no problemo . . .I’m freeeee . . . . want to make me work 18 hours a day . . .perfectly fine, I have no ego! . . .
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…there are many, many forms of slavery. There are ones you can accept, and there are others you can’t. We are all slaves in some form or other. We’re especially slaves of mind; the egocult. Once you free yourself from that bondage, the concepts of freedom and slavery are moot…[/quote]
I think you are on to something here Ephrem.
You do not beleive in the Bible, but I am thinking you have at least read some of it. I can say I am slave to sin. Not because I want to be, but because my mind is weak. Slavery does not have to be human vs human. It could be the spirit vs flesh.
I can also say I am a slave to Christ. Does Christ treat me bad? No, he wants what is best for me. I would rather be his slave, than someone elses. Being a slave is not always a bad thing, but from what we have seen in history being a slave to men is a bad thing.
I am also a slave to taxes. If I want to not pay my taxes there is a consequence. I would rather pay the taxes and not go to jail. [/quote]
…in this sense, freedom is a concept with standards that change within bounderies you set for yourself. The central tenet however within this concept, for me at least, is that if the source of these concepts, ideas and frameworks of reference is not seen or investigated, e.i. if the mind/ego is not observed for what it is, one is chasing clouds…
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…when you’ve become free from your mind it is.[/quote]
lombotomies for everyone!! or we could just smoke some weed . . . yep, that’s the solution to slavery right there! oh Yeah . . .
Go ahead and whip me . . . i’ll just have another puff, puff . . . wanna take my family away and sell them to someone else . . . kewl . . . puff, puff, cough . . .no problemo . . .I’m freeeee . . . . want to make me work 18 hours a day . . .perfectly fine, I have no ego! . . . [/quote]
…i’d be a terrible slave. My owners would sooner kill me, i think…
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…when you’ve become free from your mind it is.[/quote]
lombotomies for everyone!! or we could just smoke some weed . . . yep, that’s the solution to slavery right there! oh Yeah . . .
Go ahead and whip me . . . i’ll just have another puff, puff . . . wanna take my family away and sell them to someone else . . . kewl . . . puff, puff, cough . . .no problemo . . .I’m freeeee . . . . want to make me work 18 hours a day . . .perfectly fine, I have no ego! . . . [/quote]
…i’d be a terrible slave. My owners would sooner kill me, i think…
[/quote]
I have $1 on Ephrem. Anyone else want to bid more? jk. I bet your owner, would whip you into submission.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…when you’ve become free from your mind it is.[/quote]
lombotomies for everyone!! or we could just smoke some weed . . . yep, that’s the solution to slavery right there! oh Yeah . . .
Go ahead and whip me . . . i’ll just have another puff, puff . . . wanna take my family away and sell them to someone else . . . kewl . . . puff, puff, cough . . .no problemo . . .I’m freeeee . . . . want to make me work 18 hours a day . . .perfectly fine, I have no ego! . . . [/quote]
…i’d be a terrible slave. My owners would sooner kill me, i think…
[/quote]
I have $1 on Ephrem. Anyone else want to bid more? jk. I bet your owner, would whip you into submission.[/quote]
…everybody has a breaking point, that is true. But the energy they’d have to invest in me would not justify the dividends…
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…when you’ve become free from your mind it is.[/quote]
lombotomies for everyone!! or we could just smoke some weed . . . yep, that’s the solution to slavery right there! oh Yeah . . .
Go ahead and whip me . . . i’ll just have another puff, puff . . . wanna take my family away and sell them to someone else . . . kewl . . . puff, puff, cough . . .no problemo . . .I’m freeeee . . . . want to make me work 18 hours a day . . .perfectly fine, I have no ego! . . . [/quote]
…i’d be a terrible slave. My owners would sooner kill me, i think…
[/quote]
I have $1 on Ephrem. Anyone else want to bid more? jk. I bet your owner, would whip you into submission.[/quote]
…everybody has a breaking point, that is true. But the energy they’d have to invest in me would not justify the dividends…
[/quote]
lol, I have seen a lot of your posts, so I can see your point.
[quote]Vegita wrote:
Can someone define it? This should be viewed as a complimentary thread to the what is freedom thread.
So, is slavery “legal ownership” of another human being? Is it forcing a human being to do something against thier will? What if slavery is illegal but someone illegally owns someone. I mean if slavery means someone can’t do what they want, well hell I want to switch places with Hugh Heffner, so am I being persecuted as a slave because Heff won’t let me?
V[/quote]
What is slavery? How about the historical answer?
Every human society has had some form of slavery. Most societies had very extensive laws to deal with slaves (e.g. Sharia). In the West, many forms of slavery had a limited lifetime – 7 years was common, as well as conditions on treatment of slaves’ children: Children of slaves were automatically the children – not slaves – of the slave owner, which meant that hereditary slavery was not common. In the Arab world slavery was also wrapped up in religion which made it longer term and there were even whole tribes who were slaves. Africa in particular had a long history of slavery. Saudi Arabia only outlawed it (and unpopularly too) in 1969, while it still is practiced in many parts of Africa.
The rise of Mercantilism in the New World caused a sea change in attitudes towards slavery. In 1600 most slaves in English colonies were Irish, for instance. French and Spanish exploitation of Indians and Blacks meant that the institution of slavery as we know it started to come into existence. Blacks were imported from African slave traders as premium workers, who were thought to be largely immune to malaria and other diseases. As such, Blacks were not released from their bondage and their children were not either. A common rewriting of US history is that the first English settlers were slaveholders. No, the Puritans had strict prohibitions on most forms of slavery on religious grounds since their work ethic dictated that they must get into heaven by the sweat of their own brows. I mention this since we have an historical account of the British introduction of French and Spanish plantation practices in the second half of the 17th century. The South was not nearly as thickly settled as the North and Puritanical ire at slavery were very well recorded – the consensus of the people living in the North at the time was hot resentment. Later, when the revolution came, it was universally felt that the only way to get rid of slavery was to get rid of the British Crown that supported it and had changed laws to make it more pernicious. One section of the original Declaration of Independence was quite hotly anti-slavery, but by placing the blame at King George’s feet it was felt that the Declaration would be perceived as high treason by the British people themselves as opposed to merely a break over Parliament’s treatment of the Colonies, effectively stopping any means of rapprochement.
FWIW only about 5% of the slaves that made it to the New World ended up in North America. The sheer scope of the slave trade was immense and is not fully appreciated.
Moralizing aside, I will tell you what I think is going on with slavery. The reason is that it is a very emotional issue and the moral outrage it engenders skews perception. Starting with medieval slavery, most of what we now think of as services were performed by slaves – they did something useful and in return were given what amounted to a stable living experience. Think of a slave as the ultimate household appliance: s/he can cook, clean, chop wood and tell the kids bedtime stories. A recent trend among the truly affluent is a return to domestic servants, btw. Any way, if you had 10 children who were starving, selling them off to the local clergy or noble was actually not a bad move for everyone. Before you get huffy, remember that there were no such things as schooling and most people never went more than a couple of miles from their birthplace, so a bad turn in crops was probably pretty much past the ability of the locals to deal with. There is a reason that famine (either widespread or due to extreme poverty) was considered divine retribution and everyone knew exactly how terrible one would be. It is important to understand that commoners bought into this system voluntarily and nobody saw it as evil. Up until the middle of the 18th century you will find nary an ill word about slavery. The Taliban actually re-introduced it in Afghanistan to a pretty warm reception (at least among the slaveholders!)
Mercantilism – which is what most of you think of when you say the word “Capitalism” – tried to institutionalize services in an industrial capacity. The model of masses of slaves working huge plantations was a necessary outgrowth of the increase in trade and the rise of mass society. There is nothing to prevent having a wholly slave-based mass society and the Aztecs were pretty close to being one. The Enlightenment drastically changed our attitudes towards destiny (hence the “freedom” thread) and this use of humans as draft animals became completely vilified. It was realized that an hereditary service class for production farming is a huge waste of humanity. What destroyed this system was industrialization.* Machines were cheaper and much more reliable than humans, plus they didn’t run away or have revolutions (which is why Sci-Fi like the Terminator franchise is so intriguing). The US War Between The States was the South’s attempt to keep industrialization out. I’ll state it now, my readings in History convince me that if industrialization were to go away tomorrow, we’d slowly revert to slavery, albeit under another name. This point is crucial to understanding slavery and its demise, since conventional wisdom has it that sheer moral force from the North ended it in the South. Slavery was ebbing everywhere in the West by this time and the British and the Americans were forcing traditional societies to free their slaves often at gunpoint.**
Are you slaves? No you are not. Free will is different from slavery and the fact that sometimes you have to do things you do not like has nothing to do with this as an institution. Here you sit at your computer pondering how free you are. Oh c’mon people. Do not confuse duties and obligations with slavery. I provide for my kids and am therefore bound to a job, but this is a Hell of a lot nicer life than living hand to mouth. Most of what I am reading in this discussion reflects a lack of understanding of the conditions of slavery more than anything else. Hrmph.
And as always, I might just be full of shit…
** Arab slavers took several million Westerners as slaves from raids which lasted well into the 19th century (whole sections of the coasts in Spain and Italy were depopulated). The first large-scale US military operation abroad was aimed at stopping these which is why the Marines have a line about “the halls of Tripoli” in their anthem owning to their participation against the Barbary Corsairs. Arab leaders did stop the raids but often against violent opposition from their own citizens. The infliction of Emancipation on foreign cultures was a strong reason given in favor of colonialism. If you are scratching your head on how this could possibly be the case, you probably went to US public schools…
Slavery is a state of existence where one has no ownership of his or her own life.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Slavery is a state of existence where one has no ownership of his or her own life.[/quote]
The Greeks definition of a slave is “someone who owns no property”. They may have rights under law though.
Food for thought. Even your cats & dogs have property (territory), so the concept is certainly not a specifically human one.
– jj
[quote]jj-dude wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Slavery is a state of existence where one has no ownership of his or her own life.[/quote]
The Greeks definition of a slave is “someone who owns no property”. They may have rights under law though.
Food for thought. Even your cats & dogs have property (territory), so the concept is certainly not a specifically human one.
– jj[/quote]
Isn’t one’s own life considered property?
Property makes reference to those objects which beget sole use.
Open territory cannot be property until it is “homesteaded”. I would call the animals’ use of someone else’s property a form of trespass.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
[quote]jj-dude wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Slavery is a state of existence where one has no ownership of his or her own life.[/quote]
The Greeks definition of a slave is “someone who owns no property”. They may have rights under law though.
Food for thought. Even your cats & dogs have property (territory), so the concept is certainly not a specifically human one.
– jj[/quote]
Isn’t one’s own life considered property?
[/quote]
To be argumenative, no. I can sell and purchase property. I can’t sell my life or purchase another’s. Purchasing a slave isn’t purchasing a life. It’s the purchase of forced labor. I do not purchase him with the ability to take over and make his life mine.
In this same fashion I can’t give away or sell my life to another. They can’t take over my memory and personality, my ‘me’ if you will, and begin living it. So, I must not actually have posession over my own life. Therefore, it’s not my property.
semantics
it all comes down to action
It has nothing to do with purchasing anything. You can gift people property, too.