[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
semantics
it all comes down to action
It has nothing to do with purchasing anything. You can gift people property, too.[/quote]
Yeah, but I can’t gift my life.
And, if we’re just bio-chem machines like any other animal…Well, is that steak I consumed the other night the rightful property of some cow?
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
semantics
it all comes down to action
It has nothing to do with purchasing anything. You can gift people property, too.[/quote]
Yeah, but I can’t gift my life.[/quote]
Yes, you can.
I am sure that an adult conservative like you needs to hear that from an immature libertarian like me.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
semantics
it all comes down to action
It has nothing to do with purchasing anything. You can gift people property, too.[/quote]
Hang on there Lifti (I really do like your moniker, btw). Did you catch the relationship between property and freedom? The Greeks would tell you that people today are free precisely because they have private property (which also allows for a very high standard of living). If you own nothing you have no control over your life. Serfs were always dependent on the largess of the nobles. In the Soviet Union, you lived in dread of being termed a “social parasite” or other undesirable since you would suddenly find yourself with no housing or food (and yes, these people did end up homeless and begging on the streets of Moscow). I see this thread more about fretting over the meaning of the freedom of choice in a staggeringly opulent society and the attendant resentment over the necessary lack of that which unrealistic expectations have bred, rather than trying to figure out what a slave is and more to the point, why humans had them for so very long (probably almost forever) before they were able to get rid of them. I argue much of our freedom now is a result of the Enlightenment which gave rise to the Industrial Revolution.
Look at equality of the sexes. Women’s emancipation follows that of slaves quite closely, because of the same social forces. Now we have no qualms about, say, women working construction jobs not because they got stronger, but because they can run the same machinery as men. They can work a full day of what would have been back-breaking labor and still be able to go get their kids from daycare and raise them. Household chores that they used to do (or would have had done by slaves if they were affluent) are now done by… machines. Biology itself has not even been spared this onslaught and birth control – which did arguably more for women’s control over their destiny than any sloganeering every did – is available everywhere.
This takes care of a goodly chunk of physical labor. The internet and computers will similarly allow us all to use the labor of countless others to improve our mental abilities. 20 years ago it was hard to write a research paper because you had to know where to look and read. Now you can google the Hell out of anything and get a shortlist of sources in 2 minutes. Pretty kewl.
Animals (includes us primates) need property because this is how we can control our environments enough to ensure our viability. Some animals, like certain fish or migratory fowl, don’t really seem to have any such concept. They rove constantly and rely on the fact that they are in a new venue virtually every day to maintain a food supply and avoid predators.
Many forms of social criticism are based on the idea that property is in some way un-natural, but this is not the case in the animal kingdom. Cats are a famous example of critters that get really neurotic when they cannot assert some property is theirs (usually by peeing on it). Moreover, they are more attached to it than their owners (echoing the fact that cats are mostly solitary, not pack animals). Many a cat owner has moved to find Fluffy has escaped and made his way back to his previous home.
And as always, I might just be full of shit…
– jj
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
semantics
it all comes down to action
It has nothing to do with purchasing anything. You can gift people property, too.[/quote]
Yeah, but I can’t gift my life.[/quote]
Yes, you can.
I am sure that an adult conservative like you needs to hear that from an immature libertarian like me.
[/quote]
No, I can’t. I can’t allow someone to assume my life and live it.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
semantics
it all comes down to action
It has nothing to do with purchasing anything. You can gift people property, too.[/quote]
Yeah, but I can’t gift my life.[/quote]
Yes, you can.
I am sure that an adult conservative like you needs to hear that from an immature libertarian like me.
[/quote]
No, I can’t. I can’t allow someone to assume my life and live it.[/quote]
Sloth, you’re missing the entire point. Do you or don’t you own your own life?
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
semantics
it all comes down to action
It has nothing to do with purchasing anything. You can gift people property, too.[/quote]
Yeah, but I can’t gift my life.[/quote]
Yes, you can.
I am sure that an adult conservative like you needs to hear that from an immature libertarian like me.
[/quote]
No, I can’t. I can’t allow someone to assume my life and live it.[/quote]
Yes, you can.
You can make a gift of it, you can sacrifice it, or you can throw it away.
But only if there is not some “compassionate conserative” who assumes that he can dictate virtue at gunpoint for then your life is no longer yours to give.
There is no, and can be no virtue, without freedom.
Only men with guns.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
semantics
it all comes down to action
It has nothing to do with purchasing anything. You can gift people property, too.[/quote]
Yeah, but I can’t gift my life.[/quote]
Yes, you can.
I am sure that an adult conservative like you needs to hear that from an immature libertarian like me.
[/quote]
No, I can’t. I can’t allow someone to assume my life and live it.[/quote]
Yes, you can.
You can make a gift of it, you can sacrifice it, or you can throw it away.
But only if there is not some “compassionate conserative” who assumes that he can dictate virtue at gunpoint for then your life is no longer yours to give.
There is no, and can be no virtue, without freedom.
Only men with guns.
[/quote]
No, I can’t gift my life. Stop saying I can! Show me one example of someone gifting their LIFE. Can I throw away a life? Take a life? Sure, but anyone can do that.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
semantics
it all comes down to action
It has nothing to do with purchasing anything. You can gift people property, too.[/quote]
Yeah, but I can’t gift my life.[/quote]
Yes, you can.
I am sure that an adult conservative like you needs to hear that from an immature libertarian like me.
[/quote]
No, I can’t. I can’t allow someone to assume my life and live it.[/quote]
Yes, you can.
You can make a gift of it, you can sacrifice it, or you can throw it away.
But only if there is not some “compassionate conserative” who assumes that he can dictate virtue at gunpoint for then your life is no longer yours to give.
There is no, and can be no virtue, without freedom.
Only men with guns.
[/quote]
Ok - I got up from my desk, wented and rained the lizard, smoked a rum-flavored cigar, drank a big class of green tea, turned counter-clockwise three times, slapped the first person to walk by, consulted my astrology chart and sacrificed a small goat and I still don’t know what you’re trying to say here . . .
he said - he could not give his life to someone who could then live it . . and you said he could, made some strange reference to matrydom, attacked those dictatorial conservatives with guns, made a passing comment about the idea that virtue cannot exist in slavery and ended in A somalia warlord’s basement . . .
maybe i should have sacrificed a chicken instead of a goat . . .
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
semantics
it all comes down to action
It has nothing to do with purchasing anything. You can gift people property, too.[/quote]
Yeah, but I can’t gift my life.[/quote]
Yes, you can.
I am sure that an adult conservative like you needs to hear that from an immature libertarian like me.
[/quote]
No, I can’t. I can’t allow someone to assume my life and live it.[/quote]
Yes, you can.
You can make a gift of it, you can sacrifice it, or you can throw it away.
But only if there is not some “compassionate conserative” who assumes that he can dictate virtue at gunpoint for then your life is no longer yours to give.
There is no, and can be no virtue, without freedom.
Only men with guns.
[/quote]
No, I can’t gift my life. Stop saying I can! Show me one example of someone gifting their LIFE. Can I throw away a life? Take a life? Sure, but anyone can do that.[/quote]
You can become a nurse or doctor and help people in need for little or no money.
You can slave away doing a job you hate providing for your family.
You can take your musket and fight for the freedom of people who will sqander it searching for “social justice”.
You could also waste your life playing WW3.
That is your choice.
Methinks you might dislike libertarians because you are not ready to embrace the responsibility that comes with that freedom .
But that would not make us immature, wouldnt it?
It is really totally up to you.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
semantics
it all comes down to action
It has nothing to do with purchasing anything. You can gift people property, too.[/quote]
Yeah, but I can’t gift my life.[/quote]
Yes, you can.
I am sure that an adult conservative like you needs to hear that from an immature libertarian like me.
[/quote]
No, I can’t. I can’t allow someone to assume my life and live it.[/quote]
Yes, you can.
You can make a gift of it, you can sacrifice it, or you can throw it away.
But only if there is not some “compassionate conserative” who assumes that he can dictate virtue at gunpoint for then your life is no longer yours to give.
There is no, and can be no virtue, without freedom.
Only men with guns.
[/quote]
Ok - I got up from my desk, wented and rained the lizard, smoked a rum-flavored cigar, drank a big class of green tea, turned counter-clockwise three times, slapped the first person to walk by, consulted my astrology chart and sacrificed a small goat and I still don’t know what you’re trying to say here . . .
he said - he could not give his life to someone who could then live it . . and you said he could, made some strange reference to matrydom, attacked those dictatorial conservatives with guns, made a passing comment about the idea that virtue cannot exist in slavery and ended in A somalia warlord’s basement . . .
maybe i should have sacrificed a chicken instead of a goat . . .[/quote]
Sacrifice a lizard and it will all make sense to you.
See !?!
Sloth, The point I was making about gifting was to show you an instance where property was transferred without an exchange for some other property.
There’s a dead body in this room you guys are arguing over what color the carpet is.
Jeesh guys, slaves are not free. The two concepts are negatively correlated.
this is difficult stuff
When you have to work to support someone against your will(taxes).
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
this is difficult stuff[/quote]
It is very simple.
It is just very hard to live up to the conclusions.
Just remember that all you have to do is to get back down on your knees again and do as you are told and you will live a semi decent live.
The flock awaits you, if you so choose.
Family values and all.
[quote]John S. wrote:
When you have to work to support someone against your will(taxes).[/quote]
When someone takes away part of what you have produced regularly based on laws.
That covers slavery, servitude and the income tax.
[quote]John S. wrote:
When you have to work to support someone against your will(taxes).[/quote]
Is Lift a slave because he supports US military personnel?
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]John S. wrote:
When you have to work to support someone against your will(taxes).[/quote]
Is Lift a slave because he supports US military personnel?[/quote]
If he is being forced to pay for it yes.
[quote]orion wrote:
You can become a nurse or doctor and help people in need for little or no money.
You can slave away doing a job you hate providing for your family.
You can take your musket and fight for the freedom of people who will sqander it searching for “social justice”.
You could also waste your life playing WW3.
That is your choice.
Methinks you might dislike libertarians because you are not ready to embrace the responsibility that comes with that freedom .
But that would not make us immature, wouldnt it?
It is really totally up to you.
[/quote]
None of what you said is gifting of life. I can’t gift ‘my life.’ Noone can say “Oh hey thanks. Let me put just put that on.” Noone can take up that life and ‘put it on.’
[quote]Sloth wrote:
None of what you said is gifting of life. I can’t gift ‘my life.’ Noone can say “Oh hey thanks. Let me put just put that on.” Noone can take up that life and ‘put it on.’[/quote]
You can give up your life for your kids. Your life is your property.
You build up human capital(yourself) and sell it all the time.