What is Racism?

I’ll address these questions later. For now, I’ll leave you with this article:

Got that?

So much variation. Yes, there is enormous physiological and psychological variation amongst races.

That’s what I’ve been saying isn’t it? And the author even used the word “silly”. This is the first time I have seen this article.

[quote]

There can be mixed-race people only because there are races. He also explains that disagreement about the number of races does not disprove their existence either. Different people just draw lines at different places.

Most importantly, Mr. Wade points out that ?brain genes do not lie in some special category exempt from natural selection. They are as much under evolutionary pressure as any other category of gene.? And since human evolution is ?recent and copious,? the brains of different populations function differently. This is the book?s main heresy: After the races separated, they evolved different mental patterns that gave rise to different social patterns.

Social behavior evolved
The idea that human races have been evolving right up until the present is not new. The 10,000 Year Explosion, written in 2009 by Henry Harpending and Gregory Cochran, is the best introduction to this subject, and explains why evolution has been roaring along 100 times faster during that last several thousand years than it did during the Stone Age.
Mr. Wade goes over some of the same ground, pointing out how dramatic a change it was for our ancestors to switch from nomadic hunting to settled agriculture. For the first time, something more than bare subsistence became possible. This led to trade, wealth and poverty, government, taxes, con men, priests, etc.?an evolutionary environment completely different from the African savannah. As Mr. Wade notes, new circumstances produced new people:

As soon as the mode of subsistence changes, a society will develop new institutions to exploit its environment more effectively. The individuals whose social behavior is better attuned to such institutions will prosper and leave more children.
Some old habits were no longer useful. Farmers had to think ahead and save seed corn, whereas hunters immediately gorged themselves on kills that would rot in a few days. Smash-and-grab made sense for fast-moving nomads but not for city-dwellers who had to live with neighbors. As a rule, the longer a population has been farmers, the more the hunter has been bred out of it. The last 10,000 years has therefore seen the domestication of what had been the equivalent of a wild animal.
Not all groups are equally domesticated. Tribes that have been nomads into modern times do not adapt well to settled life. The Kalahari Bushmen think of animals only as game, not as livestock, so if someone gives them goats to tend, they eat them. Australian aborigines have not adapted well, either.

The Yanomano of the Amazon are notoriously violent, not just against outsiders but among themselves. According to one anthropologist, Yanomamo men who have killed someone in battle have 2.5 more children than those who have not. The means the Yamomano are evolving towards more violence, not less.
Mr. Wade emphasizes that behavior of this kind is influenced by genes, although only a few alleles that affect social behavior have been found. One is MAO-A, the ?warrior gene,? variants of which are clearly associated with a hair-trigger temper and violence. Maoris, for example, are warlike and crime prone?and they have a high incidence of this variant.

This, in fact, is Mr. Wade?s boldest assertion: that different races behave differently because they are genetically different and genetic differences give rise to differences in social institutions. He is at pains to argue that the genetic differences are small?so small that they are almost undetectable at the individual level?but that once a group has been nudged even slightly in a particular genetic direction it may be receptive to institutions that completely change the nature of society.
Mr. Wade cites one study that estimates fully 14 percent of the human genome has been under evolutionary pressure since the races separated, and that substantial differences are therefore inevitable. DNA studies show that Tibetans split off from Han Chinese only 3,000 years ago, so it must be only since then that Sherpas evolved their ability to function so well at high altitudes. Indeed, there are more than 30 lung- and circulation-related gene variants that are more common in Tibetans than in Chinese. Mr. Wade also notes that American blacks may already be less likely than Africans to have sickle cell anemia?because they live on a continent without malaria where there are no benefits to sickle cell alleles. Evolution is constant.

Mr. Wade makes the crucial point that what is known as ?national character? is undoubtedly genetic, and that is why group behavior is consistent. Jews prosper everywhere they go. So do overseas Chinese. If the Malays and Indonesians envy the success of their Chinese minorities, why don?t they just copy their good habits? Mr. Wade argues that they can?t; they don?t have the genetic predisposition to act Chinese.
Africans likewise cannot maintain government institutions. Their colonial masters wrote nifty constitutions for them, showed them how elections work, and explained the importance of an independent judiciary. That all ended up in the ditch once Africans took over.

^^ Please read the rest of this article if you wish to discuss this seriously.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

ENTIRE COPY AND PASTED ARTICLE

^^ Please read the rest of this article if you wish to discuss this seriously.[/quote]

You know, just the link would suffice.

Your article is a description of an extremely biased book. It is full of the opinions of one man. It’s relevant, it can even be used to support your opinion, but don’t hold it up like the end-all-be-all of discussion. You’re seriously pointing at this dude’s opinion and going, “See?! Fact!!” You point at that this guy called “the other side” silly as evidence that the other side is silly.

It’s also from a site called “American Renaissance”, which include such gems as:

“The legal framework of the United States has changed considerably with regard to race. School integration, â??civil rights,â?? racial preferences, the franchiseâ??all have evolved in ways that undermine the ability of whites to lead their lives as they wish. The record in this area is a triumph of ideology over common sense, justice, and the Constitution.”

Stop using sources like this. They’re beyond normal bias. They are an extremist viewpoint not relevant to civilized discussion, and they turn off the “normal” people who you claim are avoiding this topic.

Jared Taylor (American Renaissance) is not an “extremist”. Many non-white people contribute to that site. There is nothing “extreme” about the comment you quoted.

Anyway, I may as well give up here. No one has the guts to talk about this honestly. It’s taboo. We’ve all got to pretend. I know.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

Jared Taylor (American Renaissance) is not an “extremist”. Many non-white people contribute to that site. There is nothing “extreme” about the comment you quoted.

[/quote]

Just to be clear, that guy said that letting black people go to school with white people was violating white peoples’ rights. And you’re of the opinion that this is not an extremist, racist view?

I want to be wrong. Please tell me that’s not what you thought he meant, or that you see that statement differently. I don’t want to go to bed tonight knowing I tried to debate someone like this.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Anyway, I may as well give up here. No one has the guts to talk about this honestly. It’s taboo. We’ve all got to pretend. I know.[/quote]

Is it really that hard for you to accept that some people just don’t see race the way you do?

This is an anonymous internet forum. It doesn’t take guts to post here. There’s no reason to lie about what you really think. Don’t take your “keyboard warrior” title too literally.

[quote]Ironskape wrote:

Just to be clear, that guy said that letting black people go to school with white people was violating white peoples’ rights. And you’re of the opinion that this is not an extremist, racist view?

[/quote]

I’ve not heard him say that. If you give me the quote I’ll give you my opinion on it.

I don’t know what statement you are referring to. Provide the quote and I’ll tell you what I think. I can’t make a determination based on your (possibly incorrect) paraphrasing.

I find it hard to believe that people think there is no such thing as race and no biological differences between populations that followed separate evolutionary paths thousands and thousands of years ago.

This is a community and a social site. No one wants to be ostracised as a “racist”.

I’ve posted here regularly for a number of years. I’ve never shown animosity towards any race. Granted, I’m not very fond of Islam but that has nothing to do with race. I have no agenda to disparage any people.

The quote I just gave you, here (with a better copy and paste job):

“The legal framework of the United States has changed considerably with regard to race. School integration, “civil rights,” racial preferences, the franchise- all have evolved in ways that undermine the ability of whites to lead their lives as they wish. The record in this area is a triumph of ideology over common sense, justice, and the Constitution.”

Found here: Our Issues - American Renaissance under “Race and the Law”

Other quotes within the same section:

(Describing a book):A distinguished scholar shows how the false assumptions of the Brown decision led to the destruction of hundreds of American public schools. A scholarly but riveting account.

“This book describes the shameless way the Supreme Court and Congress have manipulated the law in ways that shackle whites. Although some of the most blatant anti-white practices have been ended by ballot initiatives, systematic discrimination against whites still has the force of law.”

“When there is significant demographic change, the entire texture of life changes. One of the most obvious consequences of an increase in the black population is an increase in crime.”

(Describing the aftermath of Katrina)“When blacks are left entirely to their own devices, Western Civilization -any kind of civilization- disappears. And in a crisis, it disappears overnight.”

That’s your guy, dude. The one you held up on a pedestal.

Quick question, Ironskape: I live in a city where young, black males commit a disproportionate amount of the violent crime. A largely disproportionate amount.

If my GF and I are walking home from a late dinner and drinks and there is a group of young, black males walking towards us, is it racist or rational to cross the street? Or both? Neither?

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
If my GF and I are walking home from a late dinner and drinks and there is a group of young, black males walking towards us, is it racist or rational to cross the street? Or both? Neither?[/quote]

Neither.

It is a sub-rational impulse, developed over hundreds of thousands of years of primate evolution.

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/336/6083/825.full

[quote]Ironskape wrote:
The quote I just gave you, here (with a better copy and paste job):

“The legal framework of the United States has changed considerably with regard to race. School integration, “civil rights,” racial preferences, the franchise- all have evolved in ways that undermine the ability of whites to lead their lives as they wish. The record in this area is a triumph of ideology over common sense, justice, and the Constitution.”

Found here: Our Issues - American Renaissance under “Race and the Law”

Other quotes within the same section:

(Describing a book):A distinguished scholar shows how the false assumptions of the Brown decision led to the destruction of hundreds of American public schools. A scholarly but riveting account.

[/quote]

Yes, as I suspected you completely misquoted him. My opinion? No, I don’t necessarily agree with Jared Taylor and Ron Paul on Brown v Board. But I do not believe it constitutes “hate”.

[quote]

“This book describes the shameless way the Supreme Court and Congress have manipulated the law in ways that shackle whites. Although some of the most blatant anti-white practices have been ended by ballot initiatives, systematic discrimination against whites still has the force of law.”

“When there is significant demographic change, the entire texture of life changes. One of the most obvious consequences of an increase in the black population is an increase in crime.”

(Describing the aftermath of Katrina)“When blacks are left entirely to their own devices, Western Civilization -any kind of civilization- disappears. And in a crisis, it disappears overnight.”

That’s your guy, dude. The one you held up on a pedestal. [/quote]

My guy that I put on a pedestal? Lol. Okay. If you like.

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
Quick question, Ironskape: I live in a city where young, black males commit a disproportionate amount of the violent crime. A largely disproportionate amount.

If my GF and I are walking home from a late dinner and drinks and there is a group of young, black males walking towards us, is it racist or rational to cross the street? Or both? Neither?[/quote]

It depends: are young, black males capable of crossing the street? If so, I don’t know what the hell good crossing the street is going to do for you. Unless they’ve identified you as a potential mark and they’re too lazy to follow you across the road, in which case you’re right.

Your rational mind might also know that even if a larger percentage of crime is committed by young black men in your area, the vast majority of young black men are not violent criminals, and when they are it’s overwhelmingly black-on-black.

I won’t say it’s irrational, but it is rooted in racism. It’s the same prejudice that makes police officers more likely to use lethal force against young black men for the same crime, and one of the primary arguments for segregation way back when. It’s something we as a society have been working to abolish, and I think we should keep trying.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

Yes, as I suspected you completely misquoted him. My opinion? No, I don’t necessarily agree with Jared Taylor and Ron Paul on Brown v Board. But I do not believe it constitutes “hate”.

[/quote]

Please elaborate on how I completely misquoted him. His quote was: “School integration… {has} evolved in ways that undermine the ability of whites to lead their lives as they wish.” I took that to mean that letting black kids go to school with white kids was infringing on white peoples’ rights.

What did he really mean?

[quote] Ironskape wrote:

I won’t say it’s irrational, but it is rooted in racism…

[/quote]

I made the point in the OP that “racism” needs to be defined otherwise it’s a meaningless pejorative. Can you define exactly what you mean by “racism?”

[quote]Ironskape wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

Yes, as I suspected you completely misquoted him. My opinion? No, I don’t necessarily agree with Jared Taylor and Ron Paul on Brown v Board. But I do not believe it constitutes “hate”.

[/quote]

Please elaborate on how I completely misquoted him. His quote was: “School integration… {has} evolved in ways that undermine the ability of whites to lead their lives as they wish.” I took that to mean that letting black kids go to school with white kids was infringing on white peoples’ rights.

What did he really mean?[/quote]

No, he doesn’t mean that. He means people should have a choice as to whether they want to go to an integrated school or not. That’s his opinion and he’s entitled to it. And it’s not motivated by “hate” due to the “colour of their skin”. It’s to do with the massive social problems in the black community that are carried over into schools; gang violence, low grades, learning and literacy problems, anti-social behaviour.

And Jared is not an “extremist”. He doesn’t advocate an all white society but rather suggests an approximate 90/10 model giving us a chance to manage our immigration and assimilate the people already here and so on. Whether you agree with this or not is one thing but it’s unfair to dismiss him as an “extremist” and “racist”. He is doing a great job in my opinion, raising issues that no one else has the guts to raise. He’s a highly educated and cultures man; born and grew up in Japan(he’s a Nipponophile), speaks fluent French and Japanese, travelled extensively in Africa etc. He was a liberal who didn’t believe in race himself in his twenties but life experience in Africa and elsewhere shaped his opinions.

Before you start railing about how “racist” the above 90/10 suggestion is consider that no non-Western nation on earth would allow the level of immigration that we do. Especially in Japan. They wouldn’t take in hundreds of thousands of people from third world warzones in a million years. They have a sensible immigration policy.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

I though you denied race as a social construct,

[/quote]

I did and do. A “social construct” is a human invention. A “social application” is something that serves a useful purpose in social relations. Two completely unrelated concepts.

Yes you have. Everyone has and everyone discriminates in such a manner on a daily basis.

How about immigration? Do we want to take sub-Saharan Africans to boost our brain power or some other population cluster?[/quote]

that last statement fits oxford dictionary’s definition of racism. Lots of people would like to change the meaning of words,to something that doesn’t paint them in a bad light. But,alas, racism is clearly defined already. Couple this with your hate,no,dislike for black “culture” whatever that means,considering the cultural differences in black populations around the globe. Perhaps it explains your disdain for President Obama who had a Nigerian father. but,most jews are white,so they’re alright,hey? How does bigot sound? Is that a better description of your attitude towards blacks and the jews attitude to the rest of the world? Why don’t you come right out and say that you feel certain races have negative qualities pervading them,and that,yes,the one’s with the most negative quatities are races other than your own?!

[quote]Ironskape wrote:

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
Quick question, Ironskape: I live in a city where young, black males commit a disproportionate amount of the violent crime. A largely disproportionate amount.

If my GF and I are walking home from a late dinner and drinks and there is a group of young, black males walking towards us, is it racist or rational to cross the street? Or both? Neither?[/quote]

It depends: are young, black males capable of crossing the street? If so, I don’t know what the hell good crossing the street is going to do for you. Unless they’ve identified you as a potential mark and they’re too lazy to follow you across the road, in which case you’re right.

Your rational mind might also know that even if a larger percentage of crime is committed by young black men in your area, the vast majority of young black men are not violent criminals, and when they are it’s overwhelmingly black-on-black.

I won’t say it’s irrational, but it is rooted in racism. It’s the same prejudice that makes police officers more likely to use lethal force against young black men for the same crime, and one of the primary arguments for segregation way back when. It’s something we as a society have been working to abolish, and I think we should keep trying. [/quote]

Okay, let us say that Dr Pangloss felt like he’d like to cross the street because he had a vague feeling of danger from seeing the group of young black men coming toward him and his girlfriend (which he would not otherwise feel if they were a group of young white men), then this impulse has to be explained.

It is the same impulse that might put you on your guard, and feel a twinge of fear, and perhaps even make you want to cross the street, if you saw a group of male Hillsboro Baptist members coming down the street toward you, which you might not feel if it was the cast of The View.

It is the sub-rational feeling–a survival reflex developed over hundreds of thousands of years and wired into the brain of every primate on the planet–of “I perceive that these people might be hostile toward me because they are not like me”.

If you claim that you would feel no unease at all, then I would say you either lie, or lack situational awareness. Just as I would say the same to Dr. Pangloss if he said he wouldn’t feel any unease when encountering the young black men. And I would say the same if it were a young black man in a white neighbourhood encountering a group of young white men, even in an area not known for white-on-black violence.

It’s really got a lot less to do with the colour of one’s skin, and more to do with whether an individual is perceived as inside or outside your group.

What we now call “racism” was instrumental to the survival of our species from the early days. It allowed us to form group solidarity, communities, and nations. Any hardwired, sub-rational impulse that has survived for hundreds of thousands of years of human development will not go away just because it is now considered politically incorrect to “think that way”.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]Ironskape wrote:

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
Quick question, Ironskape: I live in a city where young, black males commit a disproportionate amount of the violent crime. A largely disproportionate amount.

If my GF and I are walking home from a late dinner and drinks and there is a group of young, black males walking towards us, is it racist or rational to cross the street? Or both? Neither?[/quote]

It depends: are young, black males capable of crossing the street? If so, I don’t know what the hell good crossing the street is going to do for you. Unless they’ve identified you as a potential mark and they’re too lazy to follow you across the road, in which case you’re right.

Your rational mind might also know that even if a larger percentage of crime is committed by young black men in your area, the vast majority of young black men are not violent criminals, and when they are it’s overwhelmingly black-on-black.

I won’t say it’s irrational, but it is rooted in racism. It’s the same prejudice that makes police officers more likely to use lethal force against young black men for the same crime, and one of the primary arguments for segregation way back when. It’s something we as a society have been working to abolish, and I think we should keep trying. [/quote]

Okay, let us say that Dr Pangloss felt like he’d like to cross the street because he had a vague feeling of danger from seeing the group of young black men coming toward him and his girlfriend (which he would not otherwise feel if they were a group of young white men), then this impulse has to be explained.

It is the same impulse that might put you on your guard, and feel a twinge of fear, and perhaps even make you want to cross the street, if you saw a group of male Hillsboro Baptist members coming down the street toward you, which you might not feel if it was the cast of The View.

It is the sub-rational feeling–a survival reflex developed over hundreds of thousands of years and wired into the brain of every primate on the planet–of “I perceive that these people might be hostile toward me because they are not like me”.

If you claim that you would feel no unease at all, then I would say you either lie, or lack situational awareness. Just as I would say the same to Dr. Pangloss if he said he wouldn’t feel any unease when encountering the young black men. And I would say the same if it were a young black man in a white neighbourhood encountering a group of young white men, even in an area not known for white-on-black violence.

It’s really got a lot less to do with the colour of one’s skin, and more to do with whether an individual is perceived as inside or outside your group.

What we now call “racism” was instrumental to the survival of our species from the early days. It allowed us to form group solidarity, communities, and nations. Any hardwired, sub-rational impulse that has survived for hundreds of thousands of years of human development will not go away just because it is now considered politically incorrect to “think that way”.[/quote]

I don’t disagree with you, and I enjoyed the article you posted. And you’re right, if I saw a large group of young black men coming towards me, I’d feel uneasy; I wish I didn’t, but I won’t lie. (More on that in a bit)

I don’t, however, agree with your comparison of black with the WBC (I assume you meant Westboro, not Hillsboro. I could be wrong, but I’m guessing the sentiment is the same regardless). Part of why racism is unacceptable is that race is innate and cannot be changed, and so any behavior or preconceived notion attributed to you because of your race is outside of your control. Voluntary participation in a group, however, is all up to you.

In Dr. Pangloss’ example of “a group of young black men”, with “black” being their only description, I picture a bunch of guys in jeans and T-shirts. If he had said “a group of young black men wearing matching bandannas and gang paraphernalia”, my response would be to, holy shit, get the hell away from them, that’s a gang. Their being black isn’t up to them and means nothing; their participation in a gang is.

Your article fully admits that this kind of “in-group, out-group” thinking, while sub-rational and innate to the human condition, is responsible for almost all of human conflict throughout history. The same part of your brain that tells you not to trust black people also tells you to grab that girl’s ass because you want to fuck her, or to take that’s guys wallet because you want the money. Your rational brain then tells you why that’s not a good idea.

We evolve as a society by suppressing many of the caveman tendencies that carried us through the stone age in favor of behaviors that encourage cooperation in a civilized society. I can’t think of a single time in history where societal discrimination based on race ended up being the right decision, but I can think of maybe one or two times where it wasn’t.

…also, I’d straight up run away if I saw the cast of the View coming at me down the sidewalk. They’re scarier than any church.

[quote]Ironskape wrote:
I don’t, however, agree with your comparison of black with the WBC (I assume you meant Westboro, not Hillsboro. [/quote]

Yeah. I was typing in a hurry, and thought it looked weird. Westboro indeed.

Ha! No lie.