What is Lean Body Mass?

[quote]chillain wrote:

First off, the inclusion of Stu had everything to do with exposure to natural BB’s and the amounts of “lean mass” they typically carry (ie. his empirical expertise), and literally nothing to do with scientific theory. Try and keep up.[/quote]

How would that matter if we are discussing the guys that would never be winning bodybuilding comps because they don’t fit the ideal structure?

Please explain.

Wow. It being published doesn’t mean it is right or even true. Holy crap at the thinking process.

There were studies published that “proved” that steroids don’t work.

Regardless of what you want to call it, all it is is a list of measurements.

By excluding even looking at the issues I wrote about it makes it invalid for anything beyond that.

Then grow up and argue the topic and not me…and please quit the nonsense that I have to be on some “level” to question Stu.

He’s an english teacher. He could apparently learn something about this topic himself.

[quote]knee-gro wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:

Knee-gro is Headhunter I think. It’s certainly not the guy in the avatar.[/quote]

Either way, yes, that is headhunter…which means the trolls in this thread are getting trolled and don’t realize it.[/quote]

I’m sure any mod could tell you I’m not headhunter, and I certainly wouldn’t oppose in case you (or anyone else) want to ask them. This is the only username I ever had here and I don’t even know who the hell is headhunter.

You handle the truth about as good as you perform a lunge. If I were you I’d make sure I had a clue before going around accusing people of being someone else’s alternym.[/quote]

Are you the guy in your avatar?

Are you even black?

[quote]mbdix wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
CT thought PX was 6 feet even, that’s why he said 216 I believe, subtract a few lbs from that estimate and it’s reasonable.

Knee-gro is Headhunter I think. It’s certainly not the guy in the avatar.[/quote]

I’m about 6 feet in shoes…but yeah, there is a huge height difference between me and him.

Either way, yes, that is headhunter…which means the trolls in this thread are getting trolled and don’t realize it.

Either way, arguing about some arbitrary number makes no sense unless someone makes an extremely wrong statement.

It doesn’t matter if in alternate world I dieted down to “215” or “200”.

All I argued is that acting like no gains have been made for the last several years makes no sense which is the only way you could think I would need to drop below 180 regardless.[/quote]

X, since your Indigo Project appearance, how much have you progressed? Have you gained 30lbs of muscle(just a ramdom #). Did you take CT’s exercises and start using them on your own? Are you in better condition? Can you now do a lunge? (just f’n with ya) I am just wondering in what ways and how much you have progressed since that appearance?[/quote]

??

I posted all of this in that indigo log. I didn’t even diet down until AFTER I went to CO.

I don’t do lunges because I have seriously injured knees. I am a disabled vet in part because of that injury. I shouldn’t have been doing them that day. I simply tried to push through.

Since my motorcycle accident there is no way in hell I would ever worry about doing them.

My conditioning and progress were all detailed with pictures in that Indigo Log. That was why I changed to training twice a day and leaned up.

What is really strange…is that people in this thread missed all of that for over 2 years.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
It is actually a point the study I posted first already went into…about how that COULD lead to more muscle being built over a life time as opposed to someone who carried less dense muscle structure.
[/quote]
I went ahead and highlited the portion that needs emphasis.

COULD lead to more muscle. There is absolute ZERO proof that it in fact does. You’re making assumptions based on the assumptions in that study (which was already pointed out)

COULD lead to more muscle =/= leads to more muscle.

COULD =/= DOES

Bottom line, this forum has a bunch of guys in it acting like 4chan.

There have been so many lies spread by other posters in this thread someone should be asking why no one is being called on it.

First, Stu is flat out way off about even thinking that CT and I are the same height. We are nowhere close…and Stu has never seen me in person…CT has and has spent more time with me over two years.

I have never had a personal issue with CT and have spoken to the man over the phone before and eaten with him.

If people here want this forum to be this…keep it up. But this is the dumbest shit I have ever seen.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]knee-gro wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:

Knee-gro is Headhunter I think. It’s certainly not the guy in the avatar.[/quote]

Either way, yes, that is headhunter…which means the trolls in this thread are getting trolled and don’t realize it.[/quote]

I’m sure any mod could tell you I’m not headhunter, and I certainly wouldn’t oppose in case you (or anyone else) want to ask them. This is the only username I ever had here and I don’t even know who the hell is headhunter.

You handle the truth about as good as you perform a lunge. If I were you I’d make sure I had a clue before going around accusing people of being someone else’s alternym.[/quote]

Are you the guy in your avatar?

Are you even black?[/quote]
Please stop turning everything into a race issue.

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
It is actually a point the study I posted first already went into…about how that COULD lead to more muscle being built over a life time as opposed to someone who carried less dense muscle structure.
[/quote]
I went ahead and highlited the portion that needs emphasis.

COULD lead to more muscle. There is absolute ZERO proof that it in fact does. You’re making assumptions based on the assumptions in that study (which was already pointed out)

COULD lead to more muscle =/= leads to more muscle.

COULD =/= DOES[/quote]

You are now arguing that someone with more skeletal length and mass can NOT carry more muscle?

This has to be “proven” to you?

Seriously?

Wait…let me get this straight…you really need someone to PROVE to you that someone with more skeletal area could carry more muscle mass???

Really?

If so…don’t worry about it…because you clearly aren’t aware of how this really makes you look.

Also…lo fucking L at any idiot who thinks Platz only had 30" quads.

Maybe after laying off a cycle for half a year…

Too much bullshit…but they are the ones complaining???

I feel sorry for this site once these guys run off the guys who don’t get all of their info off youtube comments. I can see why no one wants anyone being questioned on what they write…

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
It is actually a point the study I posted first already went into…about how that COULD lead to more muscle being built over a life time as opposed to someone who carried less dense muscle structure.
[/quote]
I went ahead and highlited the portion that needs emphasis.

COULD lead to more muscle. There is absolute ZERO proof that it in fact does. You’re making assumptions based on the assumptions in that study (which was already pointed out)

COULD lead to more muscle =/= leads to more muscle.

COULD =/= DOES[/quote]

You are now arguing that someone with more skeletal length and mass can NOT carry more muscle?

This has to be “proven” to you?

Seriously?

Wait…let me get this straight…you really need someone to PROVE to you that someone with more skeletal area could carry more muscle mass???

Really?

If so…don’t worry about it…because you clearly aren’t aware of how this really makes you look.[/quote]
Again, where is the proof? You always want scientific data/studies… Where are the studies saying this is the case?

We aren’t talking about someone 5’6 vs someone 6’5

Please stop being so purposefully dense.

Again, please show me proof that someone who is 5’10 with a more dense skeletal structure DOES (not could) carry more MUSCLE (not LBM) than someone who’s 5’10 but doesn’t have a dense skeletal structure.

If you can’t do so, which you can’t, then you are just speaking of speculations and opinions… Which isn’t science.

Please stick to the topic and leave the attempts at patronizing and belittling other posters out. You’re an adult and supposedly a well educated professional. Act like it.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]knee-gro wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:

Knee-gro is Headhunter I think. It’s certainly not the guy in the avatar.[/quote]

Either way, yes, that is headhunter…which means the trolls in this thread are getting trolled and don’t realize it.[/quote]

I’m sure any mod could tell you I’m not headhunter, and I certainly wouldn’t oppose in case you (or anyone else) want to ask them. This is the only username I ever had here and I don’t even know who the hell is headhunter.

You handle the truth about as good as you perform a lunge. If I were you I’d make sure I had a clue before going around accusing people of being someone else’s alternym.[/quote]

Are you the guy in your avatar?

Are you even black?[/quote]

Are you the dog in your avatar?

Do you even play football?

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
It is actually a point the study I posted first already went into…about how that COULD lead to more muscle being built over a life time as opposed to someone who carried less dense muscle structure.
[/quote]
I went ahead and highlited the portion that needs emphasis.

COULD lead to more muscle. There is absolute ZERO proof that it in fact does. You’re making assumptions based on the assumptions in that study (which was already pointed out)

COULD lead to more muscle =/= leads to more muscle.

COULD =/= DOES[/quote]

You are now arguing that someone with more skeletal length and mass can NOT carry more muscle?

This has to be “proven” to you?

Seriously?

Wait…let me get this straight…you really need someone to PROVE to you that someone with more skeletal area could carry more muscle mass???

Really?

If so…don’t worry about it…because you clearly aren’t aware of how this really makes you look.[/quote]

Wow he is trying to have a conversation with you and YOU are resorting to personal attacks as evidenced by that last line. You then wonder why people are not very nice to you.

Could: Used to express the possibility of not probability of. Big difference there.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:
Jesus…

X, do people shit on you this much IRL?[/quote]

Never. This is the strangest bandwagon bullshit I have ever seen.

They aren’t even bothering to argue any topics…just throwing insults at me.[/quote]

You should have also asked X if he such a dick to people IRL.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I feel sorry for this site once these guys run off the guys who don’t get all of their info off youtube comments. I can see why no one wants anyone being questioned on what they write…[/quote]
The ironic part, which I’m sure you knew while typing, is how this exact post above directly applies to you.

You still got it. Masterful trolling.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Like I said, get to me when you want to actually discuss the science.[/quote]
Why?

[quote]Professor X wrote:
You are now arguing that someone with more skeletal length and mass can NOT carry more muscle?
[/quote]
Is it impossible, like scientifically, good doctor?

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Wait…let me get this straight…you really need someone to PROVE to you that someone with more skeletal area could carry more muscle mass???[/quote]

He already acknowledged (and highlighted) that it COULD (and probably WILL), but, since you’re all about the science and all, isn’t proof needed to establish beyond a doubt that it WILL?

[quote]rrjc5488 wrote:
X, I know you’re a hard working guy who’s always so busy with so much stuff, so I have to ask:

Do you ever relax? Take some prof X time?

Do you go on vacation?

I want you to take a deep breath and envision this:

Imagine going on expedia and booking a vacation at an all inclusive resort in the US virgin islands. Enjoy receiving that confirmation email a minute later. Enjoy the moment knowing that full well, in a few months, you’ll be laying on a sandy beach with white wimmenz frolicking in clear blue waters.

Weeks of oral surgery go by, stressing over whiny patients and long lines at the mickey D’s drive thru.

Months go by, you’re almost there.

It’s the morning of your departure. You’re all packed, your taxi ride to the airport goes flawlessly. Security? Breezed right on by. You’re waiting at the gate, with nothing but a few hours between you and your beloved vacation.

“Attention passengers, we’re about to board flight 1411 to USVI in five minutes.”

Five minutes go by, and you’re itching in line to get to your seat where you can just fall asleep and wake up in paradise.

Finally, after all these minuscule minions decide to get out of your way, you wedge yourself into your aisle seat, put your neck pillow on, take a deep breath and think to yourself “Soon…”

Your take off goes well, you hear the landing gear fold up into the airplane, so you decide to close your eyes…

An hour and a half of uninterrupted, perfect sleep goes by, when all of a sudden, you’re abruptly awoken by the loud ping of the flight attendant PA system.

“There’s a medical emergency on the plane. Do we have any doctors on board??” She says.

Do you answer yes? Only asking, cause, you know, you’re a dentist.[/quote]

Proffyboo would let the person die. Then he would demand an autopsy so he could find out how much muscle tissue they actually had.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]chillain wrote:

First off, the inclusion of Stu had everything to do with exposure to natural BB’s and the amounts of “lean mass” they typically carry (ie. his empirical expertise), and literally nothing to do with scientific theory. Try and keep up.[/quote]

How would that matter if we are discussing the guys that would never be winning bodybuilding comps because they don’t fit the ideal structure?

Please explain.[/quote]

Actually, the fact that you’ve introduced a FAR MORE RESTRICTIVE criterion – and one with FAR less accumulated data – means no actual SCIENCE-based discussion can even take place. We’re all back to the realm of speculation here and while anecdotal evidence certainly has its place – and that’s really all u have to support ur stance – that’s really all we’re doing. (nor can any amount of caps-locking can change that fact)

[quote]Yes, I understand your criticisms of Butt’s method and conclusions. But here’s the thing u seem to miss: it was still worthy of being pubished! Of course there’s always room for critical analysis and down-the-road modifications in light of that, this is how science progresses. (note how are back to the context of SCIENCE)

Wow. It being published doesn’t mean it is right or even true. Holy crap at the thinking process.

There were studies published that “proved” that steroids don’t work.[/quote]

Wow. No one claimed it need be even right or true, it’s merely one attempt at “explaining the data” and it’s well-accepted that there’s room for other attempts. Holy crap at the closed-mind/self-affirming thinking process that is actually in direct opposition to the spirit of scientific inquiry in the first place!

[quote]But you seem to think that dismissive derision of a particular study imposes a dead-end on that particular line of inquiry. Again, that is not how SCIENCE proceeds and it also completely misses Butt’s contribution for what it was: a good starting-point that (likely) utilized the only available data at the time.

Regardless of what you want to call it, all it is is a list of measurements.

By excluding even looking at the issues I wrote about it makes it invalid for anything beyond that.[/quote]

Right, that’s all I claimed it was and also that the issues you raised were noteworthy. Even the author would agree with that, so why point this out?

[quote](And while it’s nice of you to draw attention to aspects that are worthy of criticism, believe it or not graduate-level students over a range of disciplines (not just SCIENCE, mind you) also do this everyday)

Then grow up and argue the topic and not me…and please quit the nonsense that I have to be on some “level” to question Stu.

He’s an english teacher. He could apparently learn something about this topic himself.[/quote]

Do not confuse me with your regular dissenters. I’ve already explained exactly why I took issue with your attempted dismissal of Stu – his expertise within the context of natural BB is far superior to yours – and that you’re (again) straying from this to bring in Stu’s personal life is, ironically enough, childish. Grow up Prof and stick to what I’m saying, it’s been very clearly spelled out for you.

edit - trying to fix this formatting so its readable

I’ll miss these threads if they ever stop

[quote]chillain wrote:

Actually, the fact that you’ve introduced a FAR MORE RESTRICTIVE criterion – and one with FAR less accumulated data – means no actual SCIENCE-based discussion can even take place. We’re all back to the realm of speculation here and while anecdotal evidence certainly has its place – and that’s really all u have to support ur stance – that’s really all we’re doing. (nor can any amount of caps-locking can change that fact)
[/quote]

This is incorrect. I am not introducing any restrictive criteria. The study is based on restrictive criteria…which is the problem.

Casey Butt’s entire conclusion is speculation but you have no problem with that.

Bottom line, people with wider hips and bone structure NOT ideal to bodybuilding aesthetics could carry more muscle mass yet never win a contest.

You can’t ignore something like that. You can’t act like that can’t happen…which is why you can’t use restrictive criteria to form any sort of “limit”.

[quote]
Wow. No one claimed it need be even right or true, it’s merely one attempt at “explaining the data” and it’s well-accepted that there’s room for other attempts. Holy crap at the closed-mind/self-affirming thinking process that is actually in direct opposition to the spirit of scientific inquiry in the first place![/quote]

It is one grossly restrictive attempt at explaining the data which is why Butt himself mentioned that it may not apply to those of African descent.

[quote]

Right, that’s all I claimed it was and also that the issues you raised were noteworthy. Even the author would agree with that, so why point this out? [/quote]

Because it is relevant.

? I am discussing the science of this study. Stu’s bodybuilding career has nothing to do with that. You are the one who said I am not on his level to question him…which is insane given the discussion is about a study.

That makes as much sense as Stu acting like since some personal trainer on line has written an article, that no more discussion is needed…as if we can’t question them.

[quote]super saiyan wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:
Jesus…

X, do people shit on you this much IRL?[/quote]

Never. This is the strangest bandwagon bullshit I have ever seen.

They aren’t even bothering to argue any topics…just throwing insults at me.[/quote]

You should have also asked X if he such a dick to people IRL.[/quote]

What do you think I’ve written that I would not say in real life?

In real life, none of this would take place. People don’t act like you in real life. In real life, you would pretty much be a stalker at this point.

[quote]FISCHER613 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
It is actually a point the study I posted first already went into…about how that COULD lead to more muscle being built over a life time as opposed to someone who carried less dense muscle structure.
[/quote]
I went ahead and highlited the portion that needs emphasis.

COULD lead to more muscle. There is absolute ZERO proof that it in fact does. You’re making assumptions based on the assumptions in that study (which was already pointed out)

COULD lead to more muscle =/= leads to more muscle.

COULD =/= DOES[/quote]

You are now arguing that someone with more skeletal length and mass can NOT carry more muscle?

This has to be “proven” to you?

Seriously?

Wait…let me get this straight…you really need someone to PROVE to you that someone with more skeletal area could carry more muscle mass???

Really?

If so…don’t worry about it…because you clearly aren’t aware of how this really makes you look.[/quote]

Wow he is trying to have a conversation with you and YOU are resorting to personal attacks as evidenced by that last line. You then wonder why people are not very nice to you.

Could: Used to express the possibility of not probability of. Big difference there.

[/quote]

LOL…after a whole thread of people fussing about what I “could” weigh in contest shape, you now take issue with “could”.

hypocrisy…good 'ole hypocrisy.

This would be more fun if this were more of a challenge…but the constant attempt at personal attacks just makes all of this look like grade school.