How about a 1,000 horse power Supra that is totally streetable? Turn down the boost, and let the valet park it without worry.
http://www.teamnightkids.com/videos/supra1000hp.mpg
I personally do not think there was an American car made that compares with the Toyota Supra. The amount of engineering that went into that car is insane.
Say what you all want but I think GM is gonna make a comeback. They got some good rep with their Saturn Aura right?
They’re comming out with the Pontaic G8. Plus the Impala is finally returning to RWD. And of course the Camaro is back. Yeah GM is gonna comeback.
Same for Ford I guess though their going to keep slashing plants and jobs.
I don’t know about Chrysler though.
But you know what bothers me is that they’re moving a lot of their production to Canada and Mexico while cutting jobs in America.
[quote]Joebus wrote:
Ford is makeing a strong turn around[/quote]
No, they’re not. Their product line is weaker than General Motors, by far. While the lineup for Ford itself is not older, when taking into account the Ford Corporation as a whole the current vehicle line it has out there is older than what GM has out.
PAG is bleeding money out of its’ ass for Ford, which is why they sold Aston. Hopefully they’ll move Jag so modern Jag cars will stop being buckets of shit and I can become interested in buying one again.
Are you developmentally challenged? GM owned 20% of the parent company of Subaru. Toyota bought 9% of that stake, the rest was sold back to the parent company. 9% of a company is not ownership, and they did not buy all the GM stake.
They’re crashing because they’re overleveraged. They’re starting to cannibalize their own sales. Buick and Cadillac are superfluous, even though they’re trying to turn Buick into a higher-end Chevrolet and Cadillac into the major mass market high-end.
Pontiac and Chevrolet are superfluous, but there’s too much brand recognition (arguable point, I guess) for Pontiac to dismantle it. Saab, unless they’re given free reign to target Volvo and become ‘quirky’ again serves no purpose. Saturn served a purpose before it lost what made it interesting (no haggling, plastic sidepanels).
I don’t know what they’re trying to do with GMC (I doubt they do, either), but it seems to be doing alright.
A fairly large mistake for GM (and Ford, with the Falcon) was not bringing over Holden sedans and selling them in the US. I’d argue it was worse for Ford, but the ‘performance oriented’ crowd was totally lost by GM and Ford, and now they’ve all moved on to the Germans since they’re older.
The effort to reclaim youth has been costly, coming from nothing to competing with the Golf, the (defunct) MR2, the Civic, etc has cost GM and Ford a tremendous amount of earning potential in retaining young customers.
The people buying those cars are not particularly rich, but there’s a blatant connection between what lower-end cars people buy and whether or not they retain loyalty. When VW gets a 22 year old fresh out of college American to buy a Golf GTi, they’re at a much higher chance of moving into Audi when they advance.
When Honda gets an 18 year old highschool senior in a Civic, there’s a realistic expectation that they will move on to Acura, or buy more Hondas.
GM and Ford did something I honestly believed Toyota was on the verge of doing until they created Scion. They appealed to fleet sales, they appealed to the masses, and they ignored the young customer base completely after appealing to them for so long. The death of the Camaro was pretty symbolic, along with the declining quality and increasing price of the Mustang.
The refusal by Ford to bring more high-performance Focus variants on US shores to compete with the new Golf and Civic showed that they still hadn’t (still haven’t, maybe) gotten the message. You’re going to lose money off a more expensive performance oriented Focus, but you’re going to gain it back in the long run.
Which is why they won the North American car and truck of the year awards, obviously.
They’re scoring consistently higher than Ford, across almost all demographics. Volvo is doing well, which is surprising considering how little money is thrown at them (relatively) for ads.
Are you nuts? At no time was the Z06 ever intended to make a significant amount of money. Flagship vehicles are not meant to be your bread and cutter. VW did not develop and manufacture the Veyron for the sake of it being a cash cow.
The Silverado is doing fine, I think it took them too long to get a drastically new version onto the streets though.
It’s one of those economic cycles that occur over the course of a couple of decades.
I bet our parents had very similar conversations about this same topic in about 1976,77.
In fact, I know that mine did.
It will take a while for the auto makers to reconfigure their shops, management strategies, and labor agreements, then we will do it again.
Probably shortly after the next feul shortage.
[quote]Petedacook wrote:
How about a 1,000 horse power Supra that is totally streetable? Turn down the boost, and let the valet park it without worry.
http://www.teamnightkids.com/videos/supra1000hp.mpg
I personally do not think there was an American car made that compares with the Toyota Supra. The amount of engineering that went into that car is insane. [/quote]
Yup, it’s nie on impossible to make that kind of power out of an American vehicle without sacrifcing driveability, fuel economy, and durability…let alone the astronomical costs involved.
[quote]PGJ wrote:
Unions. A relec of the past that should be illegal. Those guys will go on strike for a week just to get an extra 5 minute break. That’s why many American auto makers are relocating to the south (American South) because the unions do not exist here. [/quote]
Unions are the reason we are the United States of America and not Thailand. Unions are the reason corporations in America have to (had to?, oooooh) constantly innovate and create new and better products.
The reason we’re losing mass manufacturing jobs (the major unions) is directly related to an inept government at all levels refusing to pass new trade laws. Toyota and Honda in the past, to a lesser extent Hyundai and Kia today, had incredibly cheap labor.
Labor is cheaper, cars are cheaper and can be of a higher quality in primarily mechanized production environments. That’s not the fault of unions: it’s the fault of the government for not recognizing that to even the playing field and keep jobs in America the prices of those cars need to be inflated by the government.
Today, since Toyota and Honda have moved manufacturing into America (and they’re paying less, yes, because they frown upon unions) they’re seen well, even though the quality of their cars is declining and the quality of the American manufacturers is steadily rising if not on par with some of the mid-range entries.
Toyota has all kinds of sludge issues, but they built a good name earlier on when labor was cheaper and cars were cheaper, their production methods are more efficient today because of that. Again, not the fault of the Americans.
While American technology started to become outmoded when Toyota and Honda were moving in, they couldn’t update because of the onslaught. Those really were the glory years if you want to look back at foreign reliability, up until the early 90s.
While I generally think the UAW is despicable, a good union should be despicable.
The American manufacturers made a shitload of mistakes, but the lack of assistance from the American government for fear of upsetting private companies was pretty much the beginning of the outsourcing of American jobs.
[quote]40yarddash wrote:
Say what you all want but I think GM is gonna make a comeback. They got some good rep with their Saturn Aura right?
They’re comming out with the Pontaic G8. Plus the Impala is finally returning to RWD. And of course the Camaro is back. Yeah GM is gonna comeback.
Same for Ford I guess though their going to keep slashing plants and jobs.
I don’t know about Chrysler though.[/quote]
The problem with the Camaro will be pricing itself right out of the market for the intended buyers. Chrysler has the Challenger coming out, but I believe price will be an issue as well. I love both vehicles but if you haven’t see the Trans-Am/Firebird rendition of the new Camaro, it looks even better…
http://cache.jalopnik.com/cars/concept_Trans-am.jpg
It’s not a “real” concept, just an artists rendition, but WOW.
[quote]TheSicilian wrote:
Petedacook wrote:
How about a 1,000 horse power Supra that is totally streetable? Turn down the boost, and let the valet park it without worry.
http://www.teamnightkids.com/videos/supra1000hp.mpg
I personally do not think there was an American car made that compares with the Toyota Supra. The amount of engineering that went into that car is insane.
Yup, it’s nie on impossible to make that kind of power out of an American vehicle without sacrifcing driveability, fuel economy, and durability…let alone the astronomical costs involved.
[/quote]
What country are you living in?
My brother’s shop Dyno’d over 30 cars last year all hitting between 1000-1200 hp, all street legal. Most of these were Vipers and Corvettes.
With the integration of computer control/response, superior programming, and simplified user interfaces, not to mention some great strides in super/turbo-chargers, 1000 hp isnt that hard to hit these days. Most Dodge dealerships can boost a Viper to 850hp the same day you buy it.
Rice Burners pffft…
On another note:
I think Honda Civics are another sign od the feminazation of America. In high school we had two groups. Those that bought American muscle, dreamed of building or own Challengers, Camaros, Chargers, Mustangs, Road Runners, Cudas… We just wanted something fast and had that sexy deep barritone voice.
…Then there was that other group. The guys who bought Civics, modified them with a spoiler or neon lights, and then went around singing soprano.
[quote]TheSicilian wrote:
Doug Adams wrote:
You left out “greed at upper management” as one of the choices. They listen too much to the morons on Wall Street, who freak out any time the stock takes a dip, even if it means a greater return in the long run. The unions defintitely don’t help matters (and yes, I am union), but whenever the health of a company is in question, you have to look at the leadership.
I agree with you, after looking at some of the compensation/severence/retirement packages some of these so called leaders receive, it makes me want to vomit.
What trade are you if I may ask???
[/quote]
The wonderful world of telecommunications. I hate it with a passion and am trying to get out of it.
[quote]Dweezil wrote:
The refusal by Ford to bring more high-performance Focus variants on US shores to compete with the new Golf and Civic showed that they still hadn’t (still haven’t, maybe) gotten the message. You’re going to lose money off a more expensive performance oriented Focus, but you’re going to gain it back in the long run.
[/quote]
Couldn’t agree more. I drive a Focus station-wagon, which cruises comfortably (one hand on steering wheel) at 115 MPH and which gives 38 MPG. It is built in Cologne, though.
TQB
[quote]Bujo wrote:
Most Dodge dealerships can boost a Viper to 850hp the same day you buy it.
Rice Burners pffft…[/quote]
LOL
You do realize you are comparing a V12, to a V6, the V6 is older and the V12 is brand new, and the V12 is STILL not putting out the same HP? That is V12 vs V6 my friend, 100% bigger.
How does this equate to an equal comparison in your mind?
I love America cars, but you can’t go slapping 20+ pounds of boost of a factory American car. You going to pull the heads and O-ring them? Reduce the compression ratio? You got some work to do to get 20+ pounds of boost on the car.
And what Viper do you of that has engineered carpet to be extra light and sound deadening, like the engineered fiber in the carpet in 1995 Supra? And, how much is a Viper? Last I check a vette was about $100,000.
Do you think this is apples to apples?
Just a “Management Compensation” note…
You gotta LOVE when these “poor” people get fired…and walk away with MILLIONS AND health benefits!
Amazing…
Mufasa
Hey guys I was at the Consumers Electronic show in Vegas and happened to see this New Detroit Automaker. http://getkurrent.com
The company is called American Electric and thay had some of their products on Display. The crowds around this thing were insane. Now i dont see the contry ever being converted to full time electric vehicals, but imagine the money and resourses that would be saved if you drove one of these around town instead of the suburban. and saved the suburban for the long halls.
[quote]Bujo wrote:
TheSicilian wrote:
Petedacook wrote:
How about a 1,000 horse power Supra that is totally streetable? Turn down the boost, and let the valet park it without worry.
http://www.teamnightkids.com/videos/supra1000hp.mpg
I personally do not think there was an American car made that compares with the Toyota Supra. The amount of engineering that went into that car is insane.
Yup, it’s nie on impossible to make that kind of power out of an American vehicle without sacrifcing driveability, fuel economy, and durability…let alone the astronomical costs involved.
What country are you living in?
My brother’s shop Dyno’d over 30 cars last year all hitting between 1000-1200 hp, all street legal. Most of these were Vipers and Corvettes.
With the integration of computer control/response, superior programming, and simplified user interfaces, not to mention some great strides in super/turbo-chargers, 1000 hp isnt that hard to hit these days. Most Dodge dealerships can boost a Viper to 850hp the same day you buy it.
Rice Burners pffft…[/quote]
There’s no replacement for displacement. The new Viper will make 600+ bone stock, naturally aspirated hp.
[quote]j62usa wrote:
Hey guys I was at the Consumers Electronic show in Vegas and happened to see this New Detroit Automaker. http://getkurrent.com
The company is called American Electric and thay had some of their products on Display. The crowds around this thing were insane. Now i dont see the contry ever being converted to full time electric vehicals, but imagine the money and resourses that would be saved if you drove one of these around town instead of the suburban. and saved the suburban for the long halls.[/quote]
Imagine your electric bills. One thing that gets overlooked by the media, public and “green” people when it comes to electric cars is the sheer additional amount of electricity that will be needed to power a nationwide fleet of electric cars. That’s not so much the problem, in fact, career-wise, I would love for this to happen.
The real problem is the additional electricity will be produced. Typically either coal-fired or natural-gas-fired power plants will be generating the electricity. Until we get more nuke plants built, electric cars will not be viable as a solution to the energy and environmental problems that the U.S. and world are facing.
DB
[quote]dollarbill44 wrote:
j62usa wrote:
Hey guys I was at the Consumers Electronic show in Vegas and happened to see this New Detroit Automaker. http://getkurrent.com
The company is called American Electric and thay had some of their products on Display. The crowds around this thing were insane. Now i dont see the contry ever being converted to full time electric vehicals, but imagine the money and resourses that would be saved if you drove one of these around town instead of the suburban. and saved the suburban for the long halls.
Imagine your electric bills. One thing that gets overlooked by the media, public and “green” people when it comes to electric cars is the sheer additional amount of electricity that will be needed to power a nationwide fleet of electric cars. That’s not so much the problem, in fact, career-wise, I would love for this to happen.
The real problem is the additional electricity will be produced. Typically either coal-fired or natural-gas-fired power plants will be generating the electricity. Until we get more nuke plants built, electric cars will not be viable as a solution to the energy and environmental problems that the U.S. and world are facing.
DB[/quote]
In theory (note I say in theory) the cost per kw should go down if you have a bunch of electric vehicles. Most would be recharged at night when a small percent of the available generating capacity is being used. This would allow the companies to spread their fixed costs over a larger number of kw, reducing the per kw cost.
[quote]Brett T. wrote:
This is what I’m talking about right here. Do you have any statistics that indicate foreign cars STILL outlive American, or are you going off the reputation these cars made decades ago?
[/quote]
Yes, those statistics exist, and the car dealerships that benefit from them tend to show them off. Ask your local Hyundai dealer, for example. Hyundai, Toyota, and Honda have not only built their reputation on reliability, but maintain it. Look through reviews in magazines like Car & Driver, and you’ll find that Hyundai’s reliability and warranty are both rated among the highest in the industry.
In terms of mileage and the claim that there’s not a significant difference? Perhaps. But Hyundai’s Elantra manages 28 miles per gallon only in the city, running 36-40 on the highway. With oil and gas prices constantly fluctuating, and ever leaning upward, those extra miles count a little more every year.
Their smaller SUV, the Tuscon? Five star safety ratings in all crash tests, and scores at the top of the class in avoiding rollover, too. Gets about 12/8 in fuel efficiency (litres per 100 kilometers travelled in city/highway). In miles per gallon it works out to about 20/26. Throw in the fact that it’s a cheaper buy, and you’ve got a winner.
The wife and I bought a Tuscon recently to accomodate our increased family size. That thing’s almost as easy on fuel as her old 4 cylinder, two door, Honda Civic hatchback.
It’s not that the American motor companies can’t compete – it’s that they don’t seem to want to. It’s only been the last couple years that they’ve started to strive toward what the buying public actually wants, and those efforts have been half-hearted for the most part. All this talk about what can and can’t be done by companies that have thinktanks with budgets of millions of dollars a year, and they’ve been trumped by a bunch of high school kids in a shop class:
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/living/education/13796737.htm
Runs on biodiesel, 50 miles per gallon, 300 hp, 0-60 in 4. Built for $25,000, with lodging and travel fees included. If the claims on that things performance are anywhere near accurate, then it seems that American ingenuity is still strongest at the grassroots level.
[quote]john2009 wrote:
dollarbill44 wrote:
j62usa wrote:
Hey guys I was at the Consumers Electronic show in Vegas and happened to see this New Detroit Automaker. http://getkurrent.com
The company is called American Electric and thay had some of their products on Display. The crowds around this thing were insane. Now i dont see the contry ever being converted to full time electric vehicals, but imagine the money and resourses that would be saved if you drove one of these around town instead of the suburban. and saved the suburban for the long halls.
Imagine your electric bills. One thing that gets overlooked by the media, public and “green” people when it comes to electric cars is the sheer additional amount of electricity that will be needed to power a nationwide fleet of electric cars. That’s not so much the problem, in fact, career-wise, I would love for this to happen.
The real problem is the additional electricity will be produced. Typically either coal-fired or natural-gas-fired power plants will be generating the electricity. Until we get more nuke plants built, electric cars will not be viable as a solution to the energy and environmental problems that the U.S. and world are facing.
DB
In theory (note I say in theory) the cost per kw should go down if you have a bunch of electric vehicles. Most would be recharged at night when a small percent of the available generating capacity is being used. This would allow the companies to spread their fixed costs over a larger number of kw, reducing the per kw cost.
[/quote]
It doesn’t really work that way. Peaking power facilities aren’t built to be run as baseload plants. They typically use different equipment that can be cycled up and down more quickly than a baseload plant. What this means is that they will have more forced shutdowns, much higher O&M costs and more frequent overhauls than originally expected when they were built. This in turn means higher capital expenditures and higher fixed costs. The more frequent shutdowns will mean more volatility in the available capacity and more problems with transmission as they try to keep the power flowing evenly. More volatility means higher prices for the end users.
But now, we’re way off the topic of the American automakers problems, which are two-fold: 1)building cars that people don’t want (for example, wrong option packages for a region but they get shipped anyway because it’s too costly to change over the production line) and 2)legacy cost per vehicle to cover retired union workers’ health care and pension expenses is so high that they can’t compete pricewise with other cars in their classes without offering substantial incentives that kill the margins.
DB