What if Christians are Wrong?

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

Trying to understand God will find you curled up in a corner somewhere babbling something about His ways being higher than your ways.
[/quote]

You mean such an attempt naturally results in a frenzied misinterpretation of Isaiah 55:8-9? Crazy how that happens… :slight_smile:

Just had to razz you a little…[/quote]It was a use of generally biblical language to portray the incomprehensibility of God. Razzing received.

@Severiano: You know neither what you are talking about nor the God about whom it is. I urge you to forsake confidence in yourself and ask Him to change both situations which are actually two sides of the same situation anyway. He will ya know.
[/quote]

Both of you rely on personal interpretation. I don’t see how you can say his view is invalid and unsound and your view is, however, sound and to be believed. You both rely on your own authority.

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
I’ve never wondered that. I have read the bible and I’ve seen you use this same ‘debating tactic’ on everyone, so I’ve known since the beginning that your go-to strategy for brushing off questions that make you uncomfortable is to say “You haven’t read the bible!”, as though that magically fixes the issue. [/quote]

I’d love to hear your systematic method of studying the Bible.[/quote]

It’s amazing how you can read a book like the bible and yet know nothing about it, even the most basic shit. [/quote]

Let’s not kid, he got to March and ran into Leviticus and stopped. Just like everyone and their mother did. However, there is a systematic method to reading the Bible. The Bible is not a chronological book (even in some of the books they seem to be all over the place – I’m thinking of the narrative of the divided kingdom).

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:<<< if {Jesus} he led his life the same way people like yourself do, >>>[/quote]I know three things for absolutely certain. I KNOW what I was when He called me. I KNOW what He’s done in me in the 27 years since. And I KNOW what I am today. I live in covenant with people who know me very VERY well as I do them. Please do tell me sir how I live my life.
[/quote]

I’m not telling you, your messiah is. Next time you take on a political position, ask yourself what Jesus would do, what would his position be on it. Would Jesus make it illegal to feed the poor? What would Jesus do about the homeless? Would he send poor young, mostly uneducated men to war?

I’m only asking you to consider what Jesus wants because you are a Christian. There is a reason Jesus’ teachings aren’t always in line with those of say Leviticus. You claim to be a big time Christian, then get upset when I call you out for not living like one? I have no desire to tell you how to live your life outside of judging you by how you keep your word, and I believe you should be free to do what you wish behind closed doors so long as you aren’t hurting anyone other than yourself. If you are a man of faith, I think that’s a good thing because I am too, we just have different belief systems.

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:
Islam is closer to Judaism than Christianity is in quite a few ways. [/quote]

Heresey is heresy.

Rambam, however, disareed with you, in that the Ishmaelite re-wrote the Torah and said anything in the Torah that disagreed with his scribblings was the work of evil Joooos.

The Christians accept the Torah (indeed, the entire Tanakh — the entire Hebrew cannon), as 100% correct and true.

From this common ground (and the lack of scriptural anti-semetism that is present in Islam), Christians and the Jewish people can relate and do share common values and beliefs.[/quote]

Just like you share common beliefs and values with people of Islam. At the end of the day your version of God is more similar to Islams version than it is the Christian version, no? Do you believe in a trinity or that Christ is the second coming of King David?

What do you think about the strange ass Mormons and their belief system? How do you feel about having an afterlife where you will be a servant (maybe a slave, you might get stuck with one of those Mormon families from way back in the slave days, and your an “Evil Joo”) on a Mormon family’s planet? End of the day we as human beings have so much in common, but we have a tendency to focus on differences, to the point we justify exploiting, or killing one another over them.

You even share customs with your food that are quite similar as well, as in many places when Jews cannot find Koshir foods, they will seek out Halal foods (seen this for myself)

Another observation I have made is how estudious Jewish people and Muslim people are, and it seems to be as a result of the faiths, because both faiths seem to have bare minimum requirements that are a bit more than what I am used to seeing among average Christians. Our Catechism and Confirmation aren’t shit compared to a Bar Mitzvah, or say a Hadj. Just because you are rivals, doesn’t mean you don’t share a lot in common.

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:
Islam is closer to Judaism than Christianity is in quite a few ways. [/quote]

Heresey is heresy.

Rambam, however, disareed with you, in that the Ishmaelite re-wrote the Torah and said anything in the Torah that disagreed with his scribblings was the work of evil Joooos.

The Christians accept the Torah (indeed, the entire Tanakh — the entire Hebrew cannon), as 100% correct and true.

From this common ground (and the lack of scriptural anti-semetism that is present in Islam), Christians and the Jewish people can relate and do share common values and beliefs.[/quote]

I think what serviano was actaully trying to say, though he fucked it up royally, is that the outward appearance of legalistic behavior seems more like Judaism than Christianity. It other words the prescriptions and legalistic requirements of both Islam and Judaism, appear to me more insync with each other than Judaism and Christianity. When it comes to belief itself, Christianity and Judaism are way more insync than either one is to Islam. After all, Jesus himself said “Salvation comes from the Jews”

[quote]Severiano wrote:<<< if {Jesus} he led his life the same way people like yourself do, >>>[/quote]I know three things for absolutely certain. I KNOW what I was when He called me. I KNOW what He’s done in me in the 27 years since. And I KNOW what I am today. I live in covenant with people who know me very VERY well as I do them. Please do tell me sir how I live my life.

[quote]Severiano wrote:<<< if {Jesus} he led his life the same way people like yourself do, >>>[/quote]I know three things for absolutely certain. I KNOW what I was when He called me. I KNOW what He’s done in me in the 27 years since. And I KNOW what I am today. I live in covenant with people who know me very VERY well as I do them. Please do tell me sir how I live my life.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
I’ve never wondered that. I have read the bible and I’ve seen you use this same ‘debating tactic’ on everyone, so I’ve known since the beginning that your go-to strategy for brushing off questions that make you uncomfortable is to say “You haven’t read the bible!”, as though that magically fixes the issue. [/quote]

I’d love to hear your systematic method of studying the Bible.[/quote]

Systematic method? I just picked it up and read it, a little bit each night. I don’t think one should base their life off it, but it has tremendous anthropological value and the follow up book (NT) shows a strong contrast in moral norms indicative of a significant shift in societies valuing of compassion.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
There are many things that Pat is that I find biblically abhorrent. Anti-semetic is not one of them. No. He is not being that. Mildly or otherwise. That’s just not his thing. I’ve known him a very long time and have had year long conversations with him until he so courageously put me on ignore. He is enthusiastically (though ignorantly) agreeing with Jewbacca and nothing more than that should be read into it. [/quote]

I know, I’m just pissing in his soup. [/quote]

retard.[/quote]

That’s been well established.[/quote]

I take about as much offence to you calling me a retard as a turtle takes offence to a snail calling him slow.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
I’ve never wondered that. I have read the bible and I’ve seen you use this same ‘debating tactic’ on everyone, so I’ve known since the beginning that your go-to strategy for brushing off questions that make you uncomfortable is to say “You haven’t read the bible!”, as though that magically fixes the issue. [/quote]

I’d love to hear your systematic method of studying the Bible.[/quote]

It’s amazing how you can read a book like the bible and yet know nothing about it, even the most basic shit. [/quote]

Let’s not kid, he got to March and ran into Leviticus and stopped. Just like everyone and their mother did. However, there is a systematic method to reading the Bible. The Bible is not a chronological book (even in some of the books they seem to be all over the place – I’m thinking of the narrative of the divided kingdom).[/quote]

To be honest, I don’t care if you guys don’t believe me. Personally, I think you do believe me and that’s why you all so ardently circle-jerk each other on the topic as though merely asserting it enough times will make it established fact. If you guys actually didn’t believe me, you wouldn’t try so hard to let me know you don’t believe me. Seriously, pat, literally nothing I’ve said in this thread has anything to do with the bible. Don’t you think that makes it a tad suspicious that your immediate response was ‘Well, clearly you didn’t read the bible!’?

It’s petty and it shows a certain cowardice in you.

[quote]Severiano wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:<<< if {Jesus} he led his life the same way people like yourself do, >>>[/quote]I know three things for absolutely certain. I KNOW what I was when He called me. I KNOW what He’s done in me in the 27 years since. And I KNOW what I am today. I live in covenant with people who know me very VERY well as I do them. Please do tell me sir how I live my life.
[/quote]

I’m not telling you, your messiah is. Next time you take on a political position, ask yourself what Jesus would do, what would his position be on it. Would Jesus make it illegal to feed the poor? What would Jesus do about the homeless? Would he send poor young, mostly uneducated men to war?

I’m only asking you to consider what Jesus wants because you are a Christian. There is a reason Jesus’ teachings aren’t always in line with those of say Leviticus. You claim to be a big time Christian, then get upset when I call you out for not living like one? I have no desire to tell you how to live your life outside of judging you by how you keep your word, and I believe you should be free to do what you wish behind closed doors so long as you aren’t hurting anyone other than yourself. If you are a man of faith, I think that’s a good thing because I am too, we just have different belief systems. [/quote]And I’m telling you again you have neither the first flickering clue what my messiah says nor how I live my life.

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:
Islam is closer to Judaism than Christianity is in quite a few ways. [/quote]

Heresey is heresy.

Rambam, however, disareed with you, in that the Ishmaelite re-wrote the Torah and said anything in the Torah that disagreed with his scribblings was the work of evil Joooos.

The Christians accept the Torah (indeed, the entire Tanakh — the entire Hebrew cannon), as 100% correct and true.

From this common ground (and the lack of scriptural anti-semetism that is present in Islam), Christians and the Jewish people can relate and do share common values and beliefs.[/quote]

I think what serviano was actaully trying to say, though he fucked it up royally, is that the outward appearance of legalistic behavior seems more like Judaism than Christianity. It other words the prescriptions and legalistic requirements of both Islam and Judaism, appear to me more insync with each other than Judaism and Christianity. When it comes to belief itself, Christianity and Judaism are way more insync than either one is to Islam. After all, Jesus himself said “Salvation comes from the Jews”
[/quote]

I think it’s pretty clear what I have said, you say I fucked it up royally and maybe I did. The elephant in the room I have attempted to point out is how differently God is viewed, so no, I don’t think it’s just outward/ legal behavior, from what I could tell that is an extremely important similarity. I’ve heard certain fringe Christians argue the Islamic God is not the same God as the Christian God, while there are differences in the sense, both religions refer to the same God. The very version of the Abrahamic God Islam believes in is more similar to Judaism than Christianity is to Judaism, I’m surprised this is even debatable.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:<<< if {Jesus} he led his life the same way people like yourself do, >>>[/quote]I know three things for absolutely certain. I KNOW what I was when He called me. I KNOW what He’s done in me in the 27 years since. And I KNOW what I am today. I live in covenant with people who know me very VERY well as I do them. Please do tell me sir how I live my life.
[/quote]

I’m not telling you, your messiah is. Next time you take on a political position, ask yourself what Jesus would do, what would his position be on it. Would Jesus make it illegal to feed the poor? What would Jesus do about the homeless? Would he send poor young, mostly uneducated men to war?

I’m only asking you to consider what Jesus wants because you are a Christian. There is a reason Jesus’ teachings aren’t always in line with those of say Leviticus. You claim to be a big time Christian, then get upset when I call you out for not living like one? I have no desire to tell you how to live your life outside of judging you by how you keep your word, and I believe you should be free to do what you wish behind closed doors so long as you aren’t hurting anyone other than yourself. If you are a man of faith, I think that’s a good thing because I am too, we just have different belief systems. [/quote]And I’m telling you again you have neither the first flickering clue what my messiah says nor how I live my life.
[/quote]

Right on, if I’ve offended you then I apologize. Just trying to offer some dialogue, I hope you live your life the way your messiah would.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

Trying to understand God will find you curled up in a corner somewhere babbling something about His ways being higher than your ways.
[/quote]

You mean such an attempt naturally results in a frenzied misinterpretation of Isaiah 55:8-9? Crazy how that happens… :slight_smile:

Just had to razz you a little…[/quote]It was a use of generally biblical language to portray the incomprehensibility of God. Razzing received.

@Severiano: You know neither what you are talking about nor the God about whom it is. I urge you to forsake confidence in yourself and ask Him to change both situations which are actually two sides of the same situation anyway. He will ya know.
[/quote]

Both of you rely on personal interpretation. I don’t see how you can say his view is invalid and unsound and your view is, however, sound and to be believed. You both rely on your own authority.[/quote]

Seriously, BC? This stuff again?

I gather you’re a former Protestant; is the question of authority the one that turned you? You respond to what Christian Smith calls “pervasive interpretive pluralism” in Protestantism by running to the safe halls of Catholicism, where the answers are supplied by those who claim special interpretive authority. That’s one possible reaction, and I saw a number of students (mostly philosophy majors) go that direction in college. Other Protestants, faced with the same dilemma, react by entrenching themselves further in “old” positions, trusting that Wesley or Calvin or Luther or Zwingli or SOMEONE was sufficiently inspired so as to interpret Scripture rightly. The latter position entails remaining in Protestantism and generally goes back 500 years and assumes that its system reflects the beliefs of the early church; the former jumps into the boat that claims a 2000 year lineage and perfect continuity with the faith of the church fathers.

In my opinion, the turn to Catholicism for the answer to the desire for doctrinal certainty is an inherently cowardly move. It ignores the fact that Catholicism continues to function because its leaders maintain interpretive hegemony and curtail all historical sensitivity, pretending that Irenaeus holds to the same beliefs as Tertullian or Basil the Great, who in turn hold to the same beliefs as Anselm or Aquinas. The realities of historical distance and theological development are evaded by the careful harmonization of dissenting voices, the explicit denial of sociological and cultural factors in the shaping of dogma, and the unthinking acceptance of the church fathers’ own illegitimate claims to the unity of their beliefs.

No, I don’t believe that the Catholic church is maintained by the devil or irrevocably leads people astray. I do, however, believe that Catholicism maintains its claims to interpretive hegemony only by refusing to critically and honestly scrutinize its own roots. Work miracles in the power of the Holy Ghost, claim to have witnessed the risen Christ, and show me logically, with some degree of historical sensitivity, how your beliefs actually harmonize with the words of Paul and Peter in the New Testament. Then I’ll consider laying down my tool belt and following. But if a bunch of men possessing no greater claim to authority than that they were touched by someone else in a long line of people touched by preceding bishops (who may have gone back to the apostles) try to tell me how to interpret a particular biblical passage, I’m going to ask them to prove it, not jump ship and say, “thank you so much for helping me out. For so long I was confused. Now I can finally turn my brain off and KNOW what these passages mean.”

Paul never said, “trust me - I have authority. Peter laid hands on me.” Paul said, “The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with utmost patience - signs and wonders and mighty works.”

As far as “private interpretation goes” (an idea which you still need to define), I don’t think you could be more off the mark. Tiribulus and I were joking because we DO agree about the meaning of that passage.

More importantly, “private interpretation” carries the negative connotation of “the way one person reads a passage that no one else would agree with.” That’s certainly doesn’t apply here. Thoughtful Protestants attempt to apply sound hermeneutical principles to the biblical text (something the Catholic church does not condemn), which militate against an interpretive free-for-all. We do not simply say, “this is what I think it means,” but also, “this is why I think it,” allowing our views to be subject to scrutiny and refined through dialogue with other perspectives.

If you want to find genuine “private interpretation,” by which I mean reading the passage without any sensitivity to its original historical (or even literary) context, read some Origen, or even Irenaeus. There you will find PLENTY of interpretations that simply boggle the mind, yet were plenty convincing to these guys.

edit: moved.

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
I’ve never wondered that. I have read the bible and I’ve seen you use this same ‘debating tactic’ on everyone, so I’ve known since the beginning that your go-to strategy for brushing off questions that make you uncomfortable is to say “You haven’t read the bible!”, as though that magically fixes the issue. [/quote]

I’d love to hear your systematic method of studying the Bible.[/quote]

Systematic method? I just picked it up and read it, a little bit each night. I don’t think one should base their life off it, but it has tremendous anthropological value and the follow up book (NT) shows a strong contrast in moral norms indicative of a significant shift in societies valuing of compassion.

[/quote]

No, it does not.

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
I’ve never wondered that. I have read the bible and I’ve seen you use this same ‘debating tactic’ on everyone, so I’ve known since the beginning that your go-to strategy for brushing off questions that make you uncomfortable is to say “You haven’t read the bible!”, as though that magically fixes the issue. [/quote]

I’d love to hear your systematic method of studying the Bible.[/quote]

It’s amazing how you can read a book like the bible and yet know nothing about it, even the most basic shit. [/quote]

Let’s not kid, he got to March and ran into Leviticus and stopped. Just like everyone and their mother did. However, there is a systematic method to reading the Bible. The Bible is not a chronological book (even in some of the books they seem to be all over the place – I’m thinking of the narrative of the divided kingdom).[/quote]

To be honest, I don’t care if you guys don’t believe me. Personally, I think you do believe me and that’s why you all so ardently circle-jerk each other on the topic as though merely asserting it enough times will make it established fact. If you guys actually didn’t believe me, you wouldn’t try so hard to let me know you don’t believe me. Seriously, pat, literally nothing I’ve said in this thread has anything to do with the bible. Don’t you think that makes it a tad suspicious that your immediate response was ‘Well, clearly you didn’t read the bible!’?

It’s petty and it shows a certain cowardice in you. [/quote]

If you read it, you display knowledge of having done so… You don’t, so doubt remains. And you care a lot apparently. Everything you say about it is wrong. So you either didn’t read it, or you’re dumb as hell.

The irony of this statement coming from my old friend Pat is simply beyond words.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
The irony of this statement coming from my old friend Pat is simply beyond words.[/quote]

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
I’ve never wondered that. I have read the bible and I’ve seen you use this same ‘debating tactic’ on everyone, so I’ve known since the beginning that your go-to strategy for brushing off questions that make you uncomfortable is to say “You haven’t read the bible!”, as though that magically fixes the issue. [/quote]

I’d love to hear your systematic method of studying the Bible.[/quote]

Systematic method? I just picked it up and read it, a little bit each night. I don’t think one should base their life off it, but it has tremendous anthropological value and the follow up book (NT) shows a strong contrast in moral norms indicative of a significant shift in societies valuing of compassion.

[/quote]

No, it does not.[/quote]

I don’t know which book you were reading, but I didn’t find any chapters involving turning people into salt in the second half of the bible.