What if Christians are Wrong?

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:
Look at all the judges on here. According to them they seem to know Gods will, even though it is very clear that we are not to judge, but God is in their holy book.

Anyhow, I don’t know if I’d want to go to a place to be with a creator that cast someone like Gandhi into hell. If that’s how it is, that’s not a god worthy of worship. [/quote]

Where is that in the Bible?[/quote]

Luke 6:37.

As for the hell thing, it’s more a reference to your crusader friend, “While your average decent suburbanite church going shlub goes to hell trusting his charitable giving and “good” life.”

How is it we are not to judge, then we can go judge that others will go to hell. Isn’t that specifically reserved for Gods judgement?

[quote]Severiano wrote:
Look at all the judges on here. According to them they seem to know Gods will, even though it is very clear that we are not to judge, but God is in their holy book.

Anyhow, I don’t know if I’d want to go to a place to be with a creator that cast someone like Gandhi into hell. If that’s how it is, that’s not a god worthy of worship. [/quote]You consistently demonstrate that you have no idea what the bible says on anything whatsoever. I do not have time to put to rest for the 15th time this modern American imposition on the scriptures regarding judging. Do yourself a favor and stop quoting the bible.

EDIT:Here’s a clue. The real God. The true God, The living God. Creator of heaven and earth ex-nihilo by fiat command? That God? He does not care whether you find Him worthy of worship or not. He simply commands that you do. Here’s one more clue. At the judgement? You don’t get to vote on where you go.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:
Look at all the judges on here. According to them they seem to know Gods will, even though it is very clear that we are not to judge, but God is in their holy book.

Anyhow, I don’t know if I’d want to go to a place to be with a creator that cast someone like Gandhi into hell. If that’s how it is, that’s not a god worthy of worship. [/quote]You consistently demonstrate that you have no idea what the bible says on anything whatsoever. I do not have time to put to rest for the 15th time this modern American imposition on the scriptures regarding judging. Do yourself a favor and stop quoting the bible.
[/quote]

Yeah yeah, I don’t know a damned thing :slight_smile:

Well guess what? Neither does anyone who doesn’t agree with you apparently. How many poor, or uneducated people in this world do you think have a very complex understanding of the bible? Ask yourself, is your understanding complex and elegant in a way that makes sense, or is it convoluted in such a way that you need to juggle interpretations to back up your beliefs? Interpretations, rules and beliefs are not static in the Church, so I guess a lot of people who were considered holy in the past are actually in hell. Imagine through the years how many times sins were not sins, and things that were perfectly normal back then are considered sins today. How are you going to sincerely apologize for things you don’t even know are wrong/sins, and how do we know what is right or wrong today considering how many ways the bible can be interpreted. Are we to rely on the hegemony of the Vatican? Are you going to say they got everything right?

So, I guess all those souls that Crusaders saved may be in hell because they didn’t believe right. Do you see how silly it all is? Can you take a step back and look at it from a different perspective or is that a sin too? :slight_smile: careful, wouldn’t want to send you to hell or anything.

I rest my case.

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
Ahhhh yes, traditional marriage, as defined by the “good book”.[/quote]Correction Sparky. You need the redeemed new covenant version. Ephesians 5. Caps indicate a quote from the OT as per the NASB translators. [quote]be subject to one another in the fear of Christ. 22-Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23-For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. 24-But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.
25-Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26-so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27-that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. 28-So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; 29-for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, 30-because we are members of His body. 31-FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH. 32-This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church. 33-Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband. [/quote][/quote]

So, not only one must choose the right flavor of christianity, but one must be reading the correct version of the bible, if one doesn’t want to burn in a lake of fire…for eternity.

LOL…

But seriously, what’s your thoughts on what Deuteronomy instructing a girl to marry her rapist?
[/quote]

And if you actually read the book and not your silly little atheist bloggers who think they know anything about the book, you’d know that’s not what really happened.[/quote]

Quit pretending like I’ve never read the bible; I’ve told you previously is separate threads that I have. Have I read it cover to cover? No. Have I read several of the many translations? No. Do I want to? Someday. But I have invested some time into the bible, and there was a time when I read it an hour a night before I went to bed. I told you before that at one time I was a practicing catholic; I was a lector at my parish and was committed. You told me that you didn’t give a shit about my time as a catholic. In one breath you denounce atheists for not reading the bible, then in the next you question why any atheist would. You’re inconsistent as usual.

Also, I’d wager that the many of the atheists whose works I love to read are more well versed in the bible than you are. And not just the bible, but other holy books as well. Hitchens, Dawkins, Dennett, etc.; you probably couldn’t come close to the time they’ve invested into your shitty bible, regardless of which interpretation you’re reading.

[quote]Pat wrote:
Second, I thought you were a moral relativist? So even if they did rape people I thought that cool since they felt like it.
That’s you lot believe right? It’s ok as long as you think it’s ok? So quit whining. The bible isn’t a book for atheist or for selective reading. If you don’t understand it as a whole work you don’t know shit about it. Quit trying to act like you know things you don’t.[/quote]

Why don’t you take a break from being a cunt and point me to the thread where I said that I was a moral relativist. Go ahead.

What I have talked about was ethics and morals, their differences, cultural implications, etc. Don’t get all pissed off at me just because I point out some of the shittier portions of your shitty book. “understand it as a whole work” LOL…that’s funny right there. You mean understand it while looking through the lens of a man who will accept the fairy tales on faith. Ummm…no thank you.

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
Ahhhh yes, traditional marriage, as defined by the “good book”.[/quote]

Great, reductionism. It’s like I’m talking to a fundamentalist now. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2012/06/ridicule-reductionism-ridicule-and-red-herrings.html [/quote]

Hey, I’m just quoting for you what your holy book says. Not my fault that it says the awful shit that it says.

Words mean things, and it says what it says. Christians seem to spend ALOT of time trying to justify and argue away what’s written in the bible.

[/quote]

Great point, “Words mean things.” Then you turn around and get upset that Christians try and make distinctions and put things into context. Strange fellow you are. I think that’s called hypocrisy when you have a double standard. [/quote]

No, what most christians are guilty of, is spin, not contextual explanation. This is why your bible has “evolved” over the years with new interpretations and such. What version of the bible do you subscribe to? Isn’t there like 26 versions of it?

And when a christian comes along saying that the bible says what it says, then you’ll denounce them as “fundamentalist”.

LOL…Trying to apologize and spin away the shit in the bible must be what it’s like as a PR person in charge of handling Joe Biden. “No no, what Biden really meant was…”
[/quote]

What most atheists are guilty of is tortured reasoning and an utter lack of reason and logic…The sad part is they think they have it, but they cannot reason anything to it’s logical end, because their logic fails. It’s all ego in the end.[/quote]

Yea, that’s it, the ATHEISTS just aren’t big fans of reason and logic. Tell me again about the talking snake…

[quote]Pat wrote:
It continues to amaze me how interested in God atheists are… I sure wish more Christians express the interest you do.[/quote]

It continues to amaze me how amazed you are regarding atheist interest in religion. Are you that shit stupid that you can’t figure out why a person would interest themselves in religion, regardless of their belief or lack thereof?

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
You mean understand it while looking through the lens of a man who will accept the fairy tales on faith. Ummm…no thank you.
[/quote]

But bro you weren’t even there!!!

How could you know it’s just a fairy tale and didn’t really happen?!?!?

Come on Sparky. Pat has dumped on nobody like he has on me, but this isn’t necessary. Seriously. I’ve thought better of you than this.

[quote]Severiano wrote:
Look at all the judges on here. According to them they seem to know Gods will, even though it is very clear that we are not to judge, but God is in their holy book.

Anyhow, I don’t know if I’d want to go to a place to be with a creator that cast someone like Gandhi into hell. If that’s how it is, that’s not a god worthy of worship. [/quote]

Sanity…sanity is good…

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
Ahhhh yes, traditional marriage, as defined by the “good book”.[/quote]

Great, reductionism. It’s like I’m talking to a fundamentalist now. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2012/06/ridicule-reductionism-ridicule-and-red-herrings.html [/quote]

Hey, I’m just quoting for you what your holy book says. Not my fault that it says the awful shit that it says.

Words mean things, and it says what it says. Christians seem to spend ALOT of time trying to justify and argue away what’s written in the bible.

[/quote]

Great point, “Words mean things.” Then you turn around and get upset that Christians try and make distinctions and put things into context. Strange fellow you are. I think that’s called hypocrisy when you have a double standard. [/quote]

No, what most christians are guilty of, is spin, not contextual explanation. This is why your bible has “evolved” over the years with new interpretations and such. What version of the bible do you subscribe to? Isn’t there like 26 versions of it?

And when a christian comes along saying that the bible says what it says, then you’ll denounce them as “fundamentalist”.

LOL…Trying to apologize and spin away the shit in the bible must be what it’s like as a PR person in charge of handling Joe Biden. “No no, what Biden really meant was…”
[/quote]

I think it’s hilarious when people who have never read the bible try to claim to know what the bible says! LOL!

Hey I never read ‘War and Peace’ but I know it talks about war!

You should do a book club with the rule that you don’t actually read the books, then talk about the books with authority! That will make you look like a fucking genius![/quote]

I think it’s hilarious how upset christians get when atheists point out all the immoral, evil verses in the bible. First thing out of their mouth; “you don’t undersand it!”, or “that’s out of context!”

I also think it’s hilarious that you’re constantly accusing atheists of not understanding christianity, when you clearly do not understand atheism. At least atheists read the holy books of many religions; they make an effort to understand the minds of the religious. How many atheist authors have you read?

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:
Look at all the judges on here. According to them they seem to know Gods will, even though it is very clear that we are not to judge, but God is in their holy book.

Anyhow, I don’t know if I’d want to go to a place to be with a creator that cast someone like Gandhi into hell. If that’s how it is, that’s not a god worthy of worship. [/quote]

Sanity…sanity is good…
[/quote]I’m trying to share. When are ya comin to church with me?

[quote]pat wrote:
It is a silly fiction, it requires belief in something from nothing. It requires belief in randomness.[/quote]

Thanks for illustrating your willful ignorance of atheism.

[quote]Pat wrote:
They way dumber that believing in virgin birth, or transubstantiation. How do you know it didn’t happen? Where you there?[/quote]

Awesome, haven’t heard this defense of patently stupid shit since fourth or fifth grade. LOL

Pat: “Jesus walked on water, and Moses talked to a burning bush, and Mary birthed jesus without having sex”

Atheist: “Yea, I highly doubt that.”

Pat: “How do you know!? You weren’t there!”

Atheist: “Were you?”

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
You mean understand it while looking through the lens of a man who will accept the fairy tales on faith. Ummm…no thank you.
[/quote]

But bro you weren’t even there!!!

How could you know it’s just a fairy tale and didn’t really happen?!?!?

[/quote]

I know, right? LOL

Funny if it wasn’t so sad.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Come on Sparky. Pat has dumped on nobody like he has on me, but this isn’t necessary. Seriously. I’ve thought better of you than this.[/quote]

I give what I get, Tirib.

There’s a reason that our conversations, while rough around the edges at times, are not like the exchanges I have with patty cake. I feel like I could sit down with you and BC, have some drinks, and be glad for the experience. Patty cakes? No way. More than likely he’s the guy at his work that everyone wants to have five minutes alone with, and not for drinks.

[quote]bigflamer wrote:<<< I think it’s hilarious how upset Christians get when atheists point out all the immoral, evil verses in the bible. First thing out of their mouth; “you don’t understand it!”, or “that’s out of context!” >>>[/quote]Many times it’s true that it IS butchered though. Other times you very typically deny God His rightful place as judge of what is moral.[quote]bigflamer wrote:<<< I also think it’s hilarious that you’re constantly accusing atheists of not understanding christianity, when you clearly do not understand atheism. At least atheists read the holy books of many religions; they make an effort to understand the minds of the religious. How many atheist authors have you read?[/quote] I suspect I have read far more non and anti-Christian literature than you have. I know exactly why I believe what I do and exactly why I don’t what I don’t. You’re gittin pretty stodgy and cantankerous in yer old age there bub. Wadda you care what we think? Oh yeah, we influence policy. Newsflash. In the beginning of this nation we WERE policy. It is YOUR influence that is rotting it to death.

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Come on Sparky. Pat has dumped on nobody like he has on me, but this isn’t necessary. Seriously. I’ve thought better of you than this.[/quote]

I give what I get, Tirib.

There’s a reason that our conversations, while rough around the edges at times, are not like the exchanges I have with patty cake. I feel like I could sit down with you and BC, have some drinks, and be glad for the experience. Patty cakes? No way. More than likely he’s the guy at his work that everyone wants to have five minutes alone with, and not for drinks.[/quote]Well I do appreciate that Sparky. You know where I live. Pat is not secure in his beliefs. As if I had to tell you that. That is not an insult Pat. It is true though. I saw it before he put me on ignore and that is why I persist on ignore to this day. I will say yet once again. I do not need you to be stupid and or ignorant to be wrong.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

Many times it’s true that it IS butchered though. Other times you very typically deny God His rightful place as judge of what is moral.[/quote]

Honestly, since I don’t believe in any diety, your position of “God having a rightful place as judge of what is moral” means nothing to me.

In all sincerity, I think sometimes that it’s hard for a believer to wrap their head around the idea of no belief; not just disbelief in the christian god, but absolute disbelief in ANY sort of diety.

Atheism is not a belief, it’s the absence of belief.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:
Look at all the judges on here. According to them they seem to know Gods will, even though it is very clear that we are not to judge, but God is in their holy book.

Anyhow, I don’t know if I’d want to go to a place to be with a creator that cast someone like Gandhi into hell. If that’s how it is, that’s not a god worthy of worship. [/quote]

Sanity…sanity is good…
[/quote]I’m trying to share. When are ya comin to church with me?
[/quote]

Is your church one of those places where some people voluntarily came there and can sign out, while others have to be there, to prevent them from harming themselves or others?

[quote]bigflamer wrote:<<< In all sincerity, I think sometimes that it’s hard for a believer to wrap their head around the idea of no belief; not just disbelief in the christian god, but absolute disbelief in ANY sort of diety.

Atheism is not a belief, it’s the absence of belief.[/quote]Let God be true and every man a liar. (That’s a quote from Romans 3 Sparky and yes another generality your majesty KK =] ) HE says you DO believe and not just in any ol God either, in Him. You suppress that truth, you hold it out of view in your sin to comfort yourself with an imagined escape from His grasp which is not in any way possible. Every breath you take testifies to YOU that He is there and you are guilty. You are however a dead man where this creator of yours is concerned. You at once CANNOT avoid Him and yet REFUSE to see Him. It’s torturous man I know. I was once there. You would dare I say be easy pickins in the epistemology thread Sparky. Not because you’re an imbecile. Because you have not thought this through very well.

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
It is a silly fiction, it requires belief in something from nothing. It requires belief in randomness.[/quote]

Thanks for illustrating your willful ignorance of atheism.

[quote]Pat wrote:
They way dumber that believing in virgin birth, or transubstantiation. How do you know it didn’t happen? Where you there?[/quote]

Awesome, haven’t heard this defense of patently stupid shit since fourth or fifth grade. LOL

Pat: “Jesus walked on water, and Moses talked to a burning bush, and Mary birthed jesus without having sex”

Atheist: “Yea, I highly doubt that.”

Pat: “How do you know!? You weren’t there!”

Atheist: “Were you?”
[/quote]

Trib is in Michigan and so are you. Are you the sane brother or something?

I own (partly) a pretty good sized orchard over by Benton Harbor btw. Lots of the crop got destroyed this year; glad the guy I bought it with bought crop insurance.

Guess God hates the fruit farmers this year.