Ill give you something though, Russia is going with the nationalist drive on this one no bullshit. That I will concede.
[quote]edmontonalberta wrote:
Because all you came up with is “I wikied a map. I know everything there is no know of Ukraine. Oh that ain’t enough for you? While Ill just wiki 2012 elections. That ll show him that I know more about Ukraine then this Ukrainian will ever dream of muahhahaha muhgaghagah”
[/quote]
I never suggested I know more. And I wasn’t trying to “teach” you I was trying to evidence my belief.
[quote]edmontonalberta wrote:
Ill give you something though, Russia is going with the nationalist drive on this one no bullshit. That I will concede. [/quote]
You just proved my point. The Ukrainians who are fighting against these Russian “nationalists” are “Ukrainian nationalists.” I really can’t imagine why you’re trying to obscure this. Maybe because you’re a leftie and you think nationalism is bad?
Euromaidan spearheaded by nationalist party Svoboda:
‘It also has revived three slogans originating in the Ukrainian nationalist movement of the 1930s that have become the most popular chants at Euromaidan. Almost all speakers on Independence Square?even boxer-turned-opposition-leader Vitaly Klitschko, who has lived mostly in Germany and has a US residence permit?start and end with the slogan, “Glory to Ukraine!,” to which the crowd responds “To heroes glory!” Two other nationalist call-and-response slogans often heard on the square are “Glory to the nation! Death to enemies!” and “Ukraine above all!”’
Nothing to do with nationalism. Derp derp derp…
"The protests come amid a resurgence of nationalist sentiment in Ukraine…
Derp.
“In the 2010 and 2012 elections, it became visible that a big part of the youth are moving toward nationalism,” said Georgy Kasyanov, a researcher at the Institute for the Development of Education."
Derp derp.
Alexander, who came to Independence Square from a village outside Kiev, said that the nationalists have been essential to the growth of Euromaidan. “Without nationalists, there wouldn’t be any protest,” Alexander said…
Derp
“The main mistake of Maidan is that the parties came, and social questions were replaced by nationalist ones,”
Not nationalist! Derp derp.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Euromaidan spearheaded by nationalist party Svoboda:
‘It also has revived three slogans originating in the Ukrainian nationalist movement of the 1930s that have become the most popular chants at Euromaidan. Almost all speakers on Independence Square?even boxer-turned-opposition-leader Vitaly Klitschko, who has lived mostly in Germany and has a US residence permit?start and end with the slogan, “Glory to Ukraine!,” to which the crowd responds “To heroes glory!” Two other nationalist call-and-response slogans often heard on the square are “Glory to the nation! Death to enemies!” and “Ukraine above all!”’
Nothing to do with nationalism. Derp derp derp…
"The protests come amid a resurgence of nationalist sentiment in Ukraine…
Derp.
“In the 2010 and 2012 elections, it became visible that a big part of the youth are moving toward nationalism,” said Georgy Kasyanov, a researcher at the Institute for the Development of Education."
Derp derp.
Alexander, who came to Independence Square from a village outside Kiev, said that the nationalists have been essential to the growth of Euromaidan. “Without nationalists, there wouldn’t be any protest,” Alexander said…
Derp
“The main mistake of Maidan is that the parties came, and social questions were replaced by nationalist ones,”
Not nationalist! Derp derp.
[/quote]
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Euromaidan spearheaded by nationalist party Svoboda:
‘It also has revived three slogans originating in the Ukrainian nationalist movement of the 1930s that have become the most popular chants at Euromaidan. Almost all speakers on Independence Square?even boxer-turned-opposition-leader Vitaly Klitschko, who has lived mostly in Germany and has a US residence permit?start and end with the slogan, “Glory to Ukraine!,” to which the crowd responds “To heroes glory!” Two other nationalist call-and-response slogans often heard on the square are “Glory to the nation! Death to enemies!” and “Ukraine above all!”’
Nothing to do with nationalism. Derp derp derp…
"The protests come amid a resurgence of nationalist sentiment in Ukraine…
Derp.
“In the 2010 and 2012 elections, it became visible that a big part of the youth are moving toward nationalism,” said Georgy Kasyanov, a researcher at the Institute for the Development of Education."
Derp derp.
Alexander, who came to Independence Square from a village outside Kiev, said that the nationalists have been essential to the growth of Euromaidan. “Without nationalists, there wouldn’t be any protest,” Alexander said…
Derp
“The main mistake of Maidan is that the parties came, and social questions were replaced by nationalist ones,”
Not nationalist! Derp derp.
[/quote]
Lol the same party that got 1.16 percent of the vote? Also the protests started with students protesting, then blew up when they got attacked by the police. Nationalists were there but never were the leading edge. The glory to ukraine and glory to its heroes is reference to the people that died there…
Maybe some of the volunteer battalions have a lot of nationalist sentiments but they are not wholly ethnic ukrainian. Get that through your head. Ukraine us multi national and your simplifying it in such a grotesque matter. You know nothing of its history. Just because nationalists exist in ukraibe doesn’t mean every single thing can be boiled down to nationalism. You re so dense.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Euromaidan spearheaded by nationalist party Svoboda:
‘It also has revived three slogans originating in the Ukrainian nationalist movement of the 1930s that have become the most popular chants at Euromaidan. Almost all speakers on Independence Square?even boxer-turned-opposition-leader Vitaly Klitschko, who has lived mostly in Germany and has a US residence permit?start and end with the slogan, “Glory to Ukraine!,” to which the crowd responds “To heroes glory!” Two other nationalist call-and-response slogans often heard on the square are “Glory to the nation! Death to enemies!” and “Ukraine above all!”’
Nothing to do with nationalism. Derp derp derp…
"The protests come amid a resurgence of nationalist sentiment in Ukraine…
Derp.
“In the 2010 and 2012 elections, it became visible that a big part of the youth are moving toward nationalism,” said Georgy Kasyanov, a researcher at the Institute for the Development of Education."
Derp derp.
Alexander, who came to Independence Square from a village outside Kiev, said that the nationalists have been essential to the growth of Euromaidan. “Without nationalists, there wouldn’t be any protest,” Alexander said…
Derp
“The main mistake of Maidan is that the parties came, and social questions were replaced by nationalist ones,”
Not nationalist! Derp derp.
[/quote]
You grab a few quotes to bolster your claim and it doesn’t add up…as nationalist parties all combined got like 2 percent of the vote, while Poroshenko, representing a change from the old regime and change for the future, democracy transparency got 54%. I have been saying this along. No was rioting in maidan against Russia, Russian language or Russian people, hell Russians were one of the main groups there. All people suffered undernieth Yanukovych, people wanted change and when he teased them with European Union dreams, and took it away they got mad. And it is not how you see it. You’re flat out wrong. Students showed up led by an Afghani exchange student. Hardly nationalist. When they got attacked the Afghanistan War vets showed up to protect them. The nationalists did join them of course, they have been waiting for a fight for Ukraine for a while and this was their moment. But instead of me telling you here is a video of people who rebelled saying why they are were there go to 3 minutes.Like you can see it was what I was saying from the get go. Everyone in Ukraine just wants a free country without conflict, crooked cops, crooked politicians, mafia, low economic opportunity.
- YouTube
You still haven’t brought up how you were completely out of it, on this 2012 law, that you didn’t even state correctly, was somehow the catalyst to whats going on in 2014? And not a crooked president f****** his people in the ass.
Trying to ignore it?
By the way you use like 4 super vague quotes to help you out. They are junk.
1.
Klitchko got booed and egged. So was leader of the nationalist party Svoboda, Oleg Tyannobok, he was booed when he went to the stage to speak. They didn’t spearhead this at all. Poroshenko was one of the few and Lyashko, to show real support for Maidan. uhhhh derppppp…
2.
Your next quote the came with a national resurgence in Ukraine. Alright you don’t have any references from anything you just typed it, but Ill admit patriotism did grow a lot during this for the better. But this was not the beginning of the Ukrainian national movement or whatever you want to call it, this has been going on for ages.
3.
Alright so in 2010 and 2012 nationalism grew in the youth. Ok so there was a growth in nationalism in youth. This doesn’t state how much of the youth are involved with nationalism. Just vague. Just says it grew in two years. Nor does it prove that these protests were caused by nationalism. My God, did you even follow this at all? There is flipping timelines out there you can look at for crying out loud.
Good ole Sasha (diminutive of Alexander for the Ukraine ignorant as yourself), must be an expert. Probably translated wrong. Because the initial protest was started by students who got beaten to shit by police, which later infuriated many people, namely war vets. They then came to stand their ground to protect their “children” as they see it. Later on more and more people came to help, but true it was the nationalists who brought the fighting skills that some argue were instrumental in the fight against berkut, but they always were a minority. Hence the small ass vote they got.
5.
Main mistake… K who said this. One person says it was a mistake that it became nationalist? Still vague, what nationalist questions were raised? What parties came?
Also you should know there is still people in Maidan right now, not protesting Russian language usage, lack of nationalism or anything like that. But in their own words- to keep their leaders accountable. They say they are there just in case this government continues with corruption, then they are right there right to fight.
Second get some references, your rebuttal was a joke, you just pulled out 4 quotes of some random people when you googled Ukraine nationalism protest in 2014. You cherry picked it hard. Literally 4 random ass people, that say the most vague things, that hardly hold up to anything you say, I am sure you got it from fox, because western media been pushing this whole Poor ole proud Ukrainians vs Mean Ole Russians agenda. Meanwhile Im watching Ukrainian news made by people there, interviewing Ukrainians, Russians, Tartars, Jews everyone, talking to my friends who were there, Russian friends, Ukrainian friends, and I still feel like my knowledge on this trumps your superficial junk ass theory. Go figure. Go study some ancient assyrians and bring that up in some discussion where no one cares.
Not choosing a side in the debate about ethnonationalism, but edmontonalberta is probably right about the generational aspect of the conflict.
In a way, what happened in Ukraine is basically an Arab Spring without the Arabs :
a failed generational transition that devolved into a multifactorial and “multifactional” conflict at first opportunity.
[quote]kamui wrote:
Not choosing a side in the debate about ethnonationalism, but edmontonalberta is probably right about the generational aspect of the conflict.
In a way, what happened in Ukraine is basically an Arab Spring without the Arabs :
a failed generational transition that devolved into a multifactorial and “multifactional” conflict at first opportunity.
[/quote]
That is a really good analogy.
What the vast majority of people do not realize that Putin is simply copying page-by-page letter-by-letter the old playbook of Slobodan Milosevic in the 1991/95 conflict in the former Yugoslavia, namely the Serbian invasion of Croatia in the summer/fall of '91.
The only difference being that the Russians are much more successful, otherwise the scenario is virtually identical:
-
Find the trigger event (Ukraine - EuroMaidan protests, Croatia - first elections while part of Yugoslavia)
-
Create a fascist/nazi hysteria - claim resurgence of nazis/fascists by relentless media bombardment, use WW2 nazi collaborator terminology (Ukraine - Banderites, Croatia - Ustashe) and imagery as a blanket term for all pro-Western ethnic/political groupings
-
Claim immediate danger of genocide/extermination for your ethnic/political group, revoking WW2 atrocities by the aforementioned “nazis/fascists” despite support for extreme right wing groups being in low single digits among the pro-Westerners. Plant absurd media stories, usually something about “nazis crucified/ate babies” and a danger to Russian/Serbian Orthodoxy.
-
“Spontaneously” organize protests from your ethnic/political group (in imminent danger of genocide, remember?) conveniently in front of police/army barracks in strategic towns with significant majority in which the mob “spontaneously” breaks in and manages to acquire weapons, usually straight up given by sympathetic police/army officers. This is an important one, as hundreds of artillery pieces, tanks and APC that you’ll later provide will be later claimed as “seized”. Sometimes it will work, sometimes it will not depending on the region/town (Odessa in Ukraine, for example)
-
Organize a political entity for the “oppressed” (Ukraine - LNR and DNR, Croatia - Republic of Serbian Krajina) headed by a few local semi-literate unsavory stooges, propped discreetly by your security personnel and professional army officers)
-
After that, the “separatists” make their preemptive strike to prevent the “imminent genocide by the fascists” (backed by tons and tons of armor and heavy weapons, the vast majority of “separatists” being your existing/former army personnel. If necessary, add ethnic cleansing of “fascists and their supporters”
-
If the “separatists” are thwarted militarily by their incompetence or disorganization, claim it is a civil war and bring peacekeepers (Russian Army or Yugoslav Federal Army") to separate the warring sides (never mind that we’re talking about a democratically elected government of a country vs. armed thugs) to add additional firepower to your side, brazenly siding with the “separatists”.
-
Carve out a large chunk of territory under the invented political entity, bleed it dry or simply pillage it directly through mafia goons, keeping the conflict frozen and in a permanent state of semi-war, thus ensuring economic collapse of country governed by pro-Westerners (“see, they’ve brought you nothing but senseless war and hardship”)
Slobodan Milosevic failed miserably, mostly due to spectacular military incompetence of Serbian forces and getting involved too much in Bosnia (letting the stooges run amok) where the international community finally had to intervene (again with lukewarm sanctions initially) and then later in Kosovo where he fatally overplayed his hand.
Now, as some current “separatist” leaders in Ukraine such as Strelkov were directly involved in these Serbian adventures in wars in Croatia and Bosnia, I am sure Putin took detailed notes and decided to make sure the playbook works this time.
[quote]loppar wrote:
What the vast majority of people do not realize that Putin is simply copying page-by-page letter-by-letter the old playbook of Slobodan Milosevic in the 1991/95 conflict in the former Yugoslavia, namely the Serbian invasion of Croatia in the summer/fall of '91.
The only difference being that the Russians are much more successful, otherwise the scenario is virtually identical:
-
Find the trigger event (Ukraine - EuroMaidan protests, Croatia - first elections while part of Yugoslavia)
-
Create a fascist/nazi hysteria - claim resurgence of nazis/fascists by relentless media bombardment, use WW2 nazi collaborator terminology (Ukraine - Banderites, Croatia - Ustashe) and imagery as a blanket term for all pro-Western ethnic/political groupings
-
Claim immediate danger of genocide/extermination for your ethnic/political group, revoking WW2 atrocities by the aforementioned “nazis/fascists” despite support for extreme right wing groups being in low single digits among the pro-Westerners. Plant absurd media stories, usually something about “nazis crucified/ate babies” and a danger to Russian/Serbian Orthodoxy.
-
“Spontaneously” organize protests from your ethnic/political group (in imminent danger of genocide, remember?) conveniently in front of police/army barracks in strategic towns with significant majority in which the mob “spontaneously” breaks in and manages to acquire weapons, usually straight up given by sympathetic police/army officers. This is an important one, as hundreds of artillery pieces, tanks and APC that you’ll later provide will be later claimed as “seized”. Sometimes it will work, sometimes it will not depending on the region/town (Odessa in Ukraine, for example)
-
Organize a political entity for the “oppressed” (Ukraine - LNR and DNR, Croatia - Republic of Serbian Krajina) headed by a few local semi-literate unsavory stooges, propped discreetly by your security personnel and professional army officers)
-
After that, the “separatists” make their preemptive strike to prevent the “imminent genocide by the fascists” (backed by tons and tons of armor and heavy weapons, the vast majority of “separatists” being your existing/former army personnel. If necessary, add ethnic cleansing of “fascists and their supporters”
-
If the “separatists” are thwarted militarily by their incompetence or disorganization, claim it is a civil war and bring peacekeepers (Russian Army or Yugoslav Federal Army") to separate the warring sides (never mind that we’re talking about a democratically elected government of a country vs. armed thugs) to add additional firepower to your side, brazenly siding with the “separatists”.
-
Carve out a large chunk of territory under the invented political entity, bleed it dry or simply pillage it directly through mafia goons, keeping the conflict frozen and in a permanent state of semi-war, thus ensuring economic collapse of country governed by pro-Westerners (“see, they’ve brought you nothing but senseless war and hardship”)
Slobodan Milosevic failed miserably, mostly due to spectacular military incompetence of Serbian forces and getting involved too much in Bosnia (letting the stooges run amok) where the international community finally had to intervene (again with lukewarm sanctions initially) and then later in Kosovo where he fatally overplayed his hand.
Now, as some current “separatist” leaders in Ukraine such as Strelkov were directly involved in these Serbian adventures in wars in Croatia and Bosnia, I am sure Putin took detailed notes and decided to make sure the playbook works this time.[/quote]
Something to consider is Spetsnaz defector Viktor Suvorov and his book Spetsnaz, which kind of details old Soviet plans on war planning.You can kind of theorize whats going on from the old soviet perspective from that book and how they are playing this out.One thing is that Donbas region would be an economic nightmare for Russia. They are already closing down their own mines on their own side of donbas and even Crimea is going to turn to be a huge mistake on the economic side of things. And the sanctions just would not be worth the squeeze But in keeping appearances and keeping the masses proud it sure helped his popularity.
[quote]edmontonalberta wrote:
Maybe some of the volunteer battalions have a lot of nationalist sentiments but they are not wholly ethnic ukrainian. Get that through your head.
[/quote]
Given what I’ve said over and over again, why are you pointing out you still saying this? What does their ethnicity have to do with anything?
How can a “nation” be “multi-national?”
[quote]edmontonalberta wrote:
You still haven’t brought up how you were completely out of it, on this 2012 law, that you didn’t even state correctly, was somehow the catalyst to whats going on in 2014? And not a crooked president f****** his people in the ass.
Trying to ignore it? [/quote]
I specifically stated the catalyst was the signing of the Ukraine-Russian pact.
[quote]loppar wrote:
What the vast majority of people do not realize that Putin is simply copying page-by-page letter-by-letter the old playbook of Slobodan Milosevic in the 1991/95 conflict in the former Yugoslavia, namely the Serbian invasion of Croatia in the summer/fall of '91.
The only difference being that the Russians are much more successful, otherwise the scenario is virtually identical:
-
Find the trigger event (Ukraine - EuroMaidan protests, Croatia - first elections while part of Yugoslavia)
-
Create a fascist/nazi hysteria - claim resurgence of nazis/fascists by relentless media bombardment, use WW2 nazi collaborator terminology (Ukraine - Banderites, Croatia - Ustashe) and imagery as a blanket term for all pro-Western ethnic/political groupings
-
Claim immediate danger of genocide/extermination for your ethnic/political group, revoking WW2 atrocities by the aforementioned “nazis/fascists” despite support for extreme right wing groups being in low single digits among the pro-Westerners.
[/quote]
A better analogy would be the Polish-Soviet war of 1920.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]loppar wrote:
What the vast majority of people do not realize that Putin is simply copying page-by-page letter-by-letter the old playbook of Slobodan Milosevic in the 1991/95 conflict in the former Yugoslavia, namely the Serbian invasion of Croatia in the summer/fall of '91.
The only difference being that the Russians are much more successful, otherwise the scenario is virtually identical:
-
Find the trigger event (Ukraine - EuroMaidan protests, Croatia - first elections while part of Yugoslavia)
-
Create a fascist/nazi hysteria - claim resurgence of nazis/fascists by relentless media bombardment, use WW2 nazi collaborator terminology (Ukraine - Banderites, Croatia - Ustashe) and imagery as a blanket term for all pro-Western ethnic/political groupings
-
Claim immediate danger of genocide/extermination for your ethnic/political group, revoking WW2 atrocities by the aforementioned “nazis/fascists” despite support for extreme right wing groups being in low single digits among the pro-Westerners.
[/quote]
A better analogy would be the Polish-Soviet war of 1920.
[/quote]
No. The Polish-Soviet war was Lenin’s attempt to export the Bolshevik revolution to Western Europe, primarily Germany using a Mongol-style cavalry horde.
Some (Stalin for example) in the Bolshevik camp even contemplated a march on Rome (!)
Destruction of a new, fledgling, “reactionary” and POLISH state was just an additional bonus in the grand scheme of things.
Except appeals to traditional antisemitic feelings, the bolsheviks neglected propaganda - they expected that the polish peasants’ embrace of the new political system brought by a raping, murdering, pillaging horde would be “natural”.
This is in sharp contrast to the hybrid warfare employed by Russia in the Ukrainian conflict, exploiting weaknesses in the western political landscape by using the divide-and-rule approach and investing heavily into propaganda.
The Malaysia flight downing was a fiasco, but the damage control was brilliant - from an aggressive disinformation campaign, paid journalists, bloggers and forum posters on major news sites to the exploitation of western penchant for conspiracy theories (the Russian MoD held a press conference posed pointless but open-ended questions to Ukraine and the west, sowing doubts among the media)
Now, the “humanitarian” convoy is filling all the headlines, and no one is mentioning the MH117 victims anymore nor the steady stream of Russian army reinforcements into eastern Ukraine, not to mention Ukrainian civilian victims.
[quote]loppar wrote:
No. The Polish-Soviet war was Lenin’s attempt to export the Bolshevik revolution to Western Europe, primarily Germany using a Mongol-style cavalry horde.
[/quote]
I meant in the sense that in the Polish-Soviet/Ukrainian-Soviet wars there were Ukrainians on both sides and the government forces were nationalists.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]loppar wrote:
No. The Polish-Soviet war was Lenin’s attempt to export the Bolshevik revolution to Western Europe, primarily Germany using a Mongol-style cavalry horde.
[/quote]
I meant in the sense that in the Polish-Soviet/Ukrainian-Soviet wars there were Ukrainians on both sides and the government forces were nationalists.
[/quote]
Which government? You do know at the end of World War 1 there was more then one Ukrainian state.