[quote]edmontonalberta wrote:
You still haven’t brought up how you were completely out of it, on this 2012 law, that you didn’t even state correctly, was somehow the catalyst to whats going on in 2014? And not a crooked president f****** his people in the ass.
Trying to ignore it? [/quote]
I specifically stated the catalyst was the signing of the Ukraine-Russian pact.[/quote]
Oh could have sworn you said something along these lines as well-One of the defining features of Ukraine was the attempt to replace Ukrainian with Russian as the official language. There was an attempt to Russianise the culture.
Those are your words
[quote]edmontonalberta wrote:
Maybe some of the volunteer battalions have a lot of nationalist sentiments but they are not wholly ethnic ukrainian. Get that through your head.
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Given what I’ve said over and over again, why are you pointing out you still saying this? What does their ethnicity have to do with anything?
How can a “nation” be “multi-national?”
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Lol you’re dumb. Ukraine is multi national, no one force non Ukrainians to become Ukrainian. There is no re education camps to make everyone Ukrainian. Quit trying to hold onto concrete terms, real life situations are more fluid. Learn from the Ukrainian about Ukraine for a second. Ukraine has only been a state for 20 some years. It has history for over a thousand, with many different nationalities living, arguing, trading, etc together in that time frame. Let me break this down simply to you. Ukrainian is an ethnic group. Russian is an ethnic group. Tartar is an ethnic group. Ukrainians (in the context of citizens of Ukraine of all nationalities) did not rebel in the name of nationalism, they did it because of corruption, free elections, look at that video I showed. What is the general theme of that? They are defending their country in the east because of threats, internal and external. Hell when shit hits the fan people wave flags and sing national anthems. Doesn’t make it an ethnic nationalist rebellion. Also you ignored where I showed to you that the nationalists got 1.16 percent of the vote. Doesn’t suit your agenda does it?
No. The Polish-Soviet war was Lenin’s attempt to export the Bolshevik revolution to Western Europe, primarily Germany using a Mongol-style cavalry horde.
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I meant in the sense that in the Polish-Soviet/Ukrainian-Soviet wars there were Ukrainians on both sides and the government forces were nationalists.
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Which government? You do know at the end of World War 1 there was more then one Ukrainian state.[/quote]
Lol you’re dumb. Ukraine is multi national, no one force non Ukrainians to become Ukrainian.
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What the fuck are you talking about? Ukraine is a “nation.” A nation cannot be “multi-national” - multi-national means “more than one nation.” I think you’re confusing multi-ethnic with multi-national. This is why you cannot follow what I’m talking about. You don’t even know what these things mean.
The corruption, free elections etc. led to a resurgence in nationalism. I don’t know of anyone - right or left - who disagrees with this other than you.
Defending their nation? You mean like nationalists would do? Derp…
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Hell when shit hits the fan people wave flags and sing national anthems. Doesn’t make it an ethnic nationalist rebellion. Also you ignored where I showed to you that the nationalists got 1.16 percent of the vote. Doesn’t suit your agenda does it?[/quote]
Actually I ignored it because I didn’t know what the hell you were talking about given that Svoboda won over 10% of the popular vote in 2012 and became the fourth largest party in the parliament.
Lol you’re dumb. Ukraine is multi national, no one force non Ukrainians to become Ukrainian.
[/quote]
What the fuck are you talking about? Ukraine is a “nation.” A nation cannot be “multi-national” - multi-national means “more than one nation.” I think you’re confusing multi-ethnic with multi-national. This is why you cannot follow what I’m talking about. You don’t even know what these things mean.
The corruption, free elections etc. led to a resurgence in nationalism. I don’t know of anyone - right or left - who disagrees with this other than you.
Defending their nation? You mean like nationalists would do? Derp…
Really? A resurgence in nationalism? Dude you’re so clueless, Ukrainians were proud of their country before all of this, start talking to Ukrainians. Ukrainians, the ethnic group, have been proud and nationally conscience for longer then you know. You re literally arguing with an Ukrainian on when he became proud of his culture. Maidan wasn’t our national pride awakening, neither was corruption. You have no idea how dumb you sound. Are you going to use Alexander or Ivan as your references again? Your quotes you pulled out were a joke. All you references were just some quotes you could have very well typed yourself. You have no credibility.
2.
So if you defend your country your instantly a nationalist? So every Israel soldier is an nationalist? Every Iraqi soldier fighting against IS is a nationalist? What if a third of these soldiers defending Ukraine, are not ethnically Ukrainian? What if a lot of people are just motivated by living in a free country, where justice prevails? Man its so crazy, when I watch Ukrainian news with real life Ukrainians getting interviewed, that that is what they say.
3.
So a resurgence is nationalism is your theme. But the numbers don’t add up. In 2012, Svoboda won 10%. Now with Maidan which you claim was a nationalist drive and everything is because of nationalism, why isn’t Svoboda number one? They got 1.16% of the vote. They DECREASED. Those numbers right there clearly contradict what you have to say. And the guy who was willing to reach out to all of Ukraine’s citizens and get them what they really want ( or so he claims time will tell) got a decent majority. What was he offering- no connections to the oligarchs, an end to the fighting in the east, normalize relations with Russia ( which happens to be very important to the vast majority of Ukrainians), and to keep the country pointed westward, got the vote. Also I love how you ignored the fact that that leader of Svoboda got egged.
4. the only people that are selling this nationalist storyline are fear mongers and journalists trying to make a buck. Russia which has happened to be one of the leading sources of news in Ukraine for the rest of the world has pushed this nationalist agenda since day one for political reasons. You fell for it hook line and sinker. Either you’re Putin’s lackey, which actually happens a lot on Russia and Ukrainian sites or you are too ignorant on Ukraine to have a knowledgeable opinion. I have to go with the latter.
Really? A resurgence in nationalism? Dude you’re so clueless, Ukrainians were proud of their country before all of this,
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Er…yeah? Did I suggest otherwise?
Uh…no. No I’m not.
Uh…yeah. That’s what a country is - a nation. Defending your nation is a nationalist impulse. Comprende?
Pretty much.
Pretty much.
Haven’t we been through this like five or six times?
[quote]
What if a lot of people are just motivated by living in a free country, where justice prevails? Man its so crazy, when I watch Ukrainian news with real life Ukrainians getting interviewed, that that is what they say.
3.
So a resurgence is nationalism is your theme. But the numbers don’t add up. In 2012, Svoboda won 10%. Now with Maidan which you claim was a nationalist drive and everything is because of nationalism, why isn’t Svoboda number one? They got 1.16% of the vote. They DECREASED. Those numbers right there clearly contradict what you have to say. And the guy who was willing to reach out to all of Ukraine’s citizens and get them what they really want ( or so he claims time will tell) got a decent majority. What was he offering- no connections to the oligarchs, an end to the fighting in the east, normalize relations with Russia ( which happens to be very important to the vast majority of Ukrainians), and to keep the country pointed westward, got the vote. Also I love how you ignored the fact that that leader of Svoboda got egged.
4. the only people that are selling this nationalist storyline are fear mongers and journalists trying to make a buck. Russia which has happened to be one of the leading sources of news in Ukraine for the rest of the world has pushed this nationalist agenda since day one for political reasons. You fell for it hook line and sinker. Either you’re Putin’s lackey, which actually happens a lot on Russia and Ukrainian sites or you are too ignorant on Ukraine to have a knowledgeable opinion. I have to go with the latter. [/quote]
No. The Polish-Soviet war was Lenin’s attempt to export the Bolshevik revolution to Western Europe, primarily Germany using a Mongol-style cavalry horde.
[/quote]
I meant in the sense that in the Polish-Soviet/Ukrainian-Soviet wars there were Ukrainians on both sides and the government forces were nationalists.
[/quote]
Which government? You do know at the end of World War 1 there was more then one Ukrainian state.[/quote]
The Ukrainian People’s Republic.[/quote]
I had to look this up to get the details. the majority of the units were hastily reorganized Russian Imperial Army units stationed in Ukraine. Also the Ukraine Peoples Republic initial goal was to be part of Russia, Hrushevsky, the president never wanted to leave Russia. Only when things got really bad in Russia did he gradually make the choice to start a new state.
I guess your next argument could be Pavlo Skoropadsky, leader of the Hetmanate, but he never got anywhere because no one liked him and only got power from his German overlords. And he was far from a nationalist.
In fact one leader who actually got somewhere with Ukrainians was Nestor Makhno, who you guessed it offered free elections, no corruption, self will for all nationalities. Go figure that he was was popular then. By the way he was an anarchist for whatever that is worth.
No. The Polish-Soviet war was Lenin’s attempt to export the Bolshevik revolution to Western Europe, primarily Germany using a Mongol-style cavalry horde.
[/quote]
I meant in the sense that in the Polish-Soviet/Ukrainian-Soviet wars there were Ukrainians on both sides and the government forces were nationalists.
[/quote]
Which government? You do know at the end of World War 1 there was more then one Ukrainian state.[/quote]
The Ukrainian People’s Republic.[/quote]
I had to look this up to get the details. the majority of the units were hastily reorganized Russian Imperial Army units stationed in Ukraine. Also the Ukraine Peoples Republic initial goal was to be part of Russia, Hrushevsky, the president never wanted to leave Russia. Only when things got really bad in Russia did he gradually make the choice to start a new state.
I guess your next argument could be Pavlo Skoropadsky, leader of the Hetmanate, but he never got anywhere because no one liked him and only got power from his German overlords. And he was far from a nationalist.
In fact one leader who actually got somewhere with Ukrainians was Nestor Makhno, who you guessed it offered free elections, no corruption, self will for all nationalities. Go figure that he was was popular then. By the way he was an anarchist for whatever that is worth.
Ok one guy… your point is? What about the other 5 or so leaders. And the discussion was that the forces aka the army was nationalist. I just told you they were made from former Russian Imperial Army units stationed in Ukraine. Your retort was a wiki link of some guy who was in charge for 2 years. Does coming up with non conflicting data come this natural for you? I thought being this stupid would be hard.
[quote]edmontonalberta wrote:
Ok one guy… your point is? What about the other 5 or so leaders. And the discussion was that the forces aka the army was nationalist. I just told you they were made from former Russian Imperial Army units stationed in Ukraine. Your retort was a wiki link of some guy who was in charge for 2 years. Does coming up with non conflicting data come this natural for you? I thought being this stupid would be hard.[/quote]
When I said “government forces” I meant the forces who were for Ukrainian independence. So…can I go now?
Nor have I ever denied nationalism in Ukraine. Just saying you’re overplaying it. And cute, I guess I never heard of ole Semyon. I didn’t start learnign about Ukraine’s history this week like you.
[quote]edmontonalberta wrote:
Ok one guy… your point is? What about the other 5 or so leaders. And the discussion was that the forces aka the army was nationalist. I just told you they were made from former Russian Imperial Army units stationed in Ukraine. Your retort was a wiki link of some guy who was in charge for 2 years. Does coming up with non conflicting data come this natural for you? I thought being this stupid would be hard.[/quote]
When I said “government forces” I meant the forces who were for Ukrainian independence. So…can I go now?[/quote]
Do you need an oxford dictionary scan to find out what forces means?
