What Happened in the Ukraine?

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:
Well, the referendum in Crimea is just over one day away so I thought we should discuss the vote and possible outcomes. The first option is to secede and join the Russian Federation and the second is to restore the 1992 Crimean Constitution and remain part of Ukraine, which would make Crimea even more autonomous then it is now. I was hoping for an option to secede and become an independent nation, but that did not happen. It would have had the best chance for this situation to not end in war with Ukraine and Russia, although if more incidents in Donetsk occur an occupation becomes more likely. Crimea could have become a subject of the Russian Federation later anyway, but I think that after being independent they would have decided to stay independent.

As to the legality of this referendum, this is a very interesting topic with many grey areas that serves to point out major hypocrisy on both sides. I will start by saying that this referendum does indeed violate the Ukrainian constitution (Article 73), but then again so does the new government set up by the protestors (Articles 103 and 69, among others). Many of Yanukovych’s actions, such as imprisoning his predecessor also violated the Ukrainian constitution (Article 105). Here is a link to the Ukrainian constitution for anyone who is interested and can read Ukrainian:

http://www.president.gov.ua/content/chapter03.html

What the protestors should have done when they ousted Yanukovych was keep their heads down and make no radical policy or positional changes until they held elections and this whole situation could have been avoided, but that didn’t happen so we have one group who has blatantly violated the Ukrainian constitution accusing the other of violating the Ukrainian constitution and the precedent has now been set that that the Ukrainian constitution doesn’t really matter all that much. Not that I would particularly care all that much what the Ukrainian constitution says regarding secession. I am a firm believer in the right of people towards self-determination. If a people want to form their own country, then nobody should have the right to stop them.

Now for the really funny part of this: the cries of the West about this violating international law (it doesn’t), and the rebuttal of Russia that it does not. This is essentially a mirror of Kosovo, except that with Kosovo …[/quote]

Except that in Kosovo, there was clear evidence of Serbian ethnic-cleansing, murder, and some would say genocide on a scale to invite the abhorrence of most of the civilized world. Whereas in Crimea…not one person harassed, expelled, murdered, or bludgeoned…until Russian troops arrived, en masse, in disguised uniforms.

Not quite the clearest mirror, eh, Professor?[/quote]

+1. Crimean situation has much more in common with Hitler’s takeover of the Sudetenland.

Unlike Kosovo there was no tangible threat to the Crimean population.
I thought that Serbs were unfairly demonized back then (not just in Kosovo, the whole Yugoslavian break-up deal was portrayed to be a fight against them “evuhl serbs”) but the fact of the matter is that there was a full out war waged by the Serbian government against Albanians.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Is Alaska ripe for invasion too?

[/quote]

The last line says all we need to know about how our rulers feel. That line means that if it’s not specifically mentioned in the Constitution, it’s not a right. That interpretation of the 10th Amendment turns it completely around.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
A key move by the US in this chess game would be to lift the de facto ban on US natural gas exports to Europe.[/quote]

Brenda Shaffer: “Ukraine Isn’t Europe’s Biggest Energy Risk”

Earlier this month, as Europeans watched Russian soldiers move into Crimea, they shuddered at the thought of the cold months remaining before spring, fearful that the crisis would cause pipeline gas deliveries from Russia – on which many European countries depend and which mostly transit through Ukraine – to stop. Foremost in their minds was the 2009 Ukraine gas crisis, when a disagreement between Russia and Ukraine over payments disrupted gas supplies in many European countries and left scores without heat in the middle of winter.

Since then, European countries have made progress securing their gas supplies, including by improving pipeline infrastructure within Europe so that gas can flow more easily among European states. But Europe remains vulnerable. Supply has something to do with that, but even more challenging in the long run are Europeâ??s unhelpful energy policies, defaulting utilities, and rising coal consumption. They explain why Europe does not consume the additional gas supplies that are already available.

These problems are also why recent proposals from the United States, including the ones put forward by U.S. House Speaker John Boehner (Râ??O.) and the former energy adviser Jason Bordoff, to speed up U.S. natural gas exports to Europe to shield the continent from the Ukraine crisis are off base. Before the United States pulls out its gas nozzle, it should consider a few points about Europeâ??s energy supplies. If it does, it will realize that Europe can do the most to improve its energy security with a few fixes at home.

PUT THAT IN YOUR PIPE

For all the talk of Gazpromâ??s nefarious intentions in Europe and Ukraine, Europe must also remember that this is not a clear case of good guys versus bad guys.
Observers may speak of a European energy market, but that is an illusion. States on Europeâ??s periphery, such as Bulgaria, Greece, and Hungary, have much higher energy prices and bigger security challenges than those in the center of Europe, such as Germany. That is because natural gas is not a global commodity with one price but is sold at varying prices in different markets, depending on local supply and demand dynamics. Countries in western Europe have access to more sources of pipeline gas than do most of those in Europeâ??s periphery and therefore enjoy securer supplies and cheaper prices. Eastern European countries are especially vulnerable because most are landlocked and thus cannot access liquefied natural gas (LNG) imports, which can be delivered only to sea ports (the United Statesâ?? exports to Europe would come as LNG). That would not matter if Europe had a robust and interconnected gas pipeline system, but it does not. Moreover, even if U.S. LNG could reach eastern Europe, most countries there would not be able to afford it. North American LNG, after liquefaction, transit, and regasification, would cost at least double the price of Russian gas in eastern Europeâ??s pipelines. And that gas is already prohibitively expensive: In recent years, the high price tag has driven down gas consumption and led to a boost in coal use. In other words, LNG from the United States is no real competition for pipeline gas out of Russia.

Perhaps realizing all that, Europeans have focused on bringing more eastern pipeline gas into the continent. At the end of last year, the European Union took an important step in this direction with the establishment of the Southern Gas Corridor. This pipeline will begin in Azerbaijanâ??s massive Shah Deniz gas field and end in Italy, connecting seven different countries. The project will reach some of Europeâ??s most vulnerable nations and most likely help lower gas prices there. In doing so, it will edge out coal once more and help lower pollution and carbon emissions.

It should not be surprising that the Southern Gas Corridor has caught Moscowâ??s ire. Russian-run Gazprom is attempting to buy up gas transit and transmission infrastructure along the pipeline route to try to undermine the project. Even more insidious, it has paid environmental movements to try to stymie construction with environmental claims. This is not the first time that Gazprom has used bogus environmental movements to promote its interests. It has also funded anti-fracking campaigns in Europe, including in Ukraine and Bulgaria, to slow Europeâ??s development of local gas supplies. If public watchdogs in Europe do not monitor and publicize Russiaâ??s manipulation of environmental causes, distinguishing its claims from those of legitimate environmental organizations, it will find itself increasingly dependent on Russian gas imports.

Europeâ??s efforts to increase eastern pipeline gas are a good start toward addressing the continentâ??s energy woes. In the future, it should also encourage the development of spurs from the southern corridor into other vulnerable markets, such as the Balkans. That would both increase the volume of southern corridor gas that would reach the European Union and help wean countries just beyond Europeâ??s borders off Russia.

MARKET DELUSIONS

Europeâ??s problems would be challenging enough if they related only to energy supply. But they go deeper than that. Europeâ??s energy policies are based around an extreme free-market ideology that is not well suited to the regionâ??s patchwork of energy markets. Since the early part of the last decade, Brussels has worked to reduce the role of the state and EU institutions in the energy sphere. It has supported the privatization of energy companies, the unbundling of the gas and electricity supply chains, and the adoption of hub pricing instead of long-term supply contracts. Its (unproved) assumption is that freer energy markets will enhance supply security.

Brussels seems to be taking its cue from the relatively successful U.S. natural gas model, which is based mainly on spot pricing and involves very little government interference. However, the U.S. gas market is fundamentally different from that in Europe: Deregulated gas trade works stateside because most gas there is domestic and no producer supplies more than three percent. In Europe, most gas is foreign and three producers, all from outside the European Union, each supply close to a third of it. In Europeâ??s case, the adoption of hub pricing may actually allow outside players to increase their hold on Europe. Gazprom, the biggest, could manipulate hub prices by flooding or withholding gas from particular hubs to its own advantage.

Moreover, there is no evidence that market forces will lead to the development of the kind of infrastructure Europe actually needs. With the exception of support for the Southern Gas Corridor, it has been unable to address the unevenness of the European gas market. And there is not much profit to be gained from building strategic gas-storage units, gas pipeline interconnectors, and reverse-flow mechanisms on pipelines, all of which could cushion against disruptions to gas supply. European states and EU institutions thus need to take the lead – or at least give companies a regulatory push – in order to establish bulwarks against supply disruptions.

Europeâ??s energy policies are deficient in one last area. Its efforts to address climate change have led to a perverse combination – rising consumption of renewables and coal. Moreover, to prevent the lights from going out, European countries are on the verge of having to bail out a large number of aging utilities firms, which are unprofitable due to impractical regulation. Until Europe gets its regulatory house in order, more gas deliveries wonâ??t do much good. If there is a lesson for the EU from the U.S. shale gas revolution, it is that energy policies succeed best when public interest and commercial logic line up.

ENERGY DRAIN

For all the talk of Gazpromâ??s nefarious intentions in Europe and Ukraine, Europe must also remember that this is not a clear case of good guys versus bad guys. Over half of the gas that Russia supplies to Europe transits through Ukraine, and some of Gazpromâ??s largest gas storage facilities are located there. But the country has not been a responsible partner for Russia. Successive Ukrainian leaders, motivated by personal gain, have conspired with local oligarchs to siphon off gas and have refused to pay Kievâ??s gas bills to Russia. The new Ukrainian leadership needs to take steps to reduce the corruption related to the gas industry and should be prepared to raise energy prices at home to reduce consumption.

Similarly, the United States and Europe should not balk at Russiaâ??s decision to raise the gas prices for Ukraine. If higher prices push Ukraine to improve energy efficiency at home, develop some of its potential domestic gas resources, and wean itself off Russia, all the better. Moreover, just as Moscow should not be obligated to subsidize lush gas consumption in Ukraine, neither should the U.S. taxpayer subsidize it through loans. In 2014, Europe will elect a new parliament and new EU Commission leadership. On its agenda will be resetting Europeâ??s energy policy. Hopefully, it will realize that energy is a utility and not a commodity, and that the European Union must take a leading role in ensuring that the lights do not go out. And hopefully the United States will hold off on fast-tracking exports until the benefit of those extra supplies for Europe becomes clearer.

So US supplied gas is not feasible because of transport and processing cost, but prices should be raised in Europe and the Ukraine to promote efficiency?

There’s a bureaucratic gordian knot if ever there was one.

The policy of NATO enlargement to include some of Russia’s old Warsaw Pact allies and former Soviet republics was clearly not a prudent course of action. The same can be said of the pursuit of ABM systems in central Europe. The expansion of NATO towards the heartland of a diminished Russia created a new security dilemma for Moscow, but an old problem.

Theater ABM systems threaten to undermine the stabilizing deterrence of mutually assured destruction. The rise of a military challenge from more technologically advanced countries in the West had been a familiar security predicament for Russia over several centuries. The West should enter into Russia’s counter-fear to understand why it is feeling threatened, and thus gain a greater understanding that its actions have contributed to Russian fears and uncertainties that drive it to seek security. Russia isn’t a revisionist state. It is acting out of rational self-interest.

[quote]Bismark wrote:
The expansion of NATO towards the heartland of a diminished Russia created a new security dilemma for Moscow…[/quote]

But the fact that we have Russian ships parked in Cuba and Venezuela and this is not seen as expansion of Russian power towards the heartland of the United States is ludicrous.

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
So US supplied gas is not feasible because of transport and processing cost, but prices should be raised in Europe and the Ukraine to promote efficiency?

[/quote]

Not really. The article was not promoting a raising of gas prices across Europe, only just in the Ukraine. And it wasn’t strictly promoting either as much as saying that if Russia decides to squeeze the Ukraine on account of ongoing corruption and refusal to pay for services then the US should not freak out about that. The reason we should not freak out is that as prices climb higher they will eventually drive down demand and influence the Ukraine to cut energy dependence on Russia by developing some more of its own pathways.(a good thing from our Western perspective).

This makes complete sense–if you desire lesser consumption from one particular source, you make that source more expensive because eventually it becomes prohibitive to buy. This is not necessarily a good thing, as the same result would ideally be achieved without distressing the populace of Ukraine…but it may pressure Ukraine into a better long term outcome by necessity (being the mother of invention and all). The author is not saying that Europe should do this either, they are arguing that Europe needs to bring their prices down but do so in a way that helps their patchwork market and reflects their reality (of infrastructure, or lack thereof) rather than attempting to import a system of market regulation that works better for our domestic and widely competitive gas market.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:
The expansion of NATO towards the heartland of a diminished Russia created a new security dilemma for Moscow…[/quote]

But the fact that we have Russian ships parked in Cuba and Venezuela and this is not seen as expansion of Russian power towards the heartland of the United States is ludicrous.[/quote]

I don’t think you understand what the security dilemma is. That certainly doesn’t present one to the US.

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:
The expansion of NATO towards the heartland of a diminished Russia created a new security dilemma for Moscow…[/quote]

But the fact that we have Russian ships parked in Cuba and Venezuela and this is not seen as expansion of Russian power towards the heartland of the United States is ludicrous.[/quote]

I don’t think you understand what the security dilemma is. That certainly doesn’t present one to the US.
[/quote]

Oh, I get it. You ever hear of the Cuban Missile Crisis? The Russians have been creating a security delemma in our part of the world for a long time. They just don’t like it because the tables have now turned against them. If they don’t like Nato being in their “sphere of interest” then they should get the hell out of ours.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:
The expansion of NATO towards the heartland of a diminished Russia created a new security dilemma for Moscow…[/quote]

But the fact that we have Russian ships parked in Cuba and Venezuela and this is not seen as expansion of Russian power towards the heartland of the United States is ludicrous.[/quote]

I don’t think you understand what the security dilemma is. That certainly doesn’t present one to the US.
[/quote]

Oh, I get it. You ever hear of the Cuban Missile Crisis? The Russians have been creating a security delemma in our part of the world for a long time. They just don’t like it because the tables have now turned against them. If they don’t like Nato being in their “sphere of interest” then they should get the hell out of ours. [/quote]

We are discussing the Russian Federation, not the Soviet Union of the Cold War, which was characterized by bipolarity. Again, you’ve demonstrated that you don’t understand a very basic concept in international relations - the security dilemma .

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:
The expansion of NATO towards the heartland of a diminished Russia created a new security dilemma for Moscow…[/quote]

But the fact that we have Russian ships parked in Cuba and Venezuela and this is not seen as expansion of Russian power towards the heartland of the United States is ludicrous.[/quote]

I don’t think you understand what the security dilemma is. That certainly doesn’t present one to the US.
[/quote]

Oh, I get it. You ever hear of the Cuban Missile Crisis? The Russians have been creating a security delemma in our part of the world for a long time. They just don’t like it because the tables have now turned against them. If they don’t like Nato being in their “sphere of interest” then they should get the hell out of ours. [/quote]

We are discussing the Russian Federation, not the Soviet Union of the Cold War, which was characterized by bipolarity. Again, you’ve demonstrated that you don’t understand a very basic concept in international relations - the security dilemma .
[/quote]

Yes but in your post of another thread you brought up the 1951 agreement as a “transcendence of the security dilemma and trust between nations” while not addressing the fact that the active Cold War colors all thoughts and actions for state actors in a search for security among allies they might otherwise have openly distrusted in a non Cold War reality. Taking the Cold War activity and using it to look at the world now in essence, the very thing you are criticizing Gkhan for here.

For what its worth, I agree with your criticism here and the Soviet Un–I mean the Russian Federation–does not have hostile intents toward the US whatsoever. Russian ships parked where they are does not constitute another Cuban Crisis.

[quote]Bismark wrote:
[/quote]

We are discussing the Russian Federation, not the Soviet Union of the Cold War, which was characterized by bipolarity. Again, you’ve demonstrated that you don’t understand a very basic concept in international relations - the security dilemma .
[/quote]

Aragorn, I am not saying the Russians parking their ships in Cuba today is another Cuban Missile Crisis.

We have people on this thread comparing The Russian Federation to Nazi Germany, a fair comparison by my standards, but in your opinion, is this not a valid comparison because Nazi Germany is not in existnence today? Is that enough to make it not valid?

Bis, I understand the concept of security delemma, I just don’t see how it applies in one situation and not another.

And perhaps it is you who doesn’t understand another very basic concept in international relations…

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:
The expansion of NATO towards the heartland of a diminished Russia created a new security dilemma for Moscow…[/quote]

But the fact that we have Russian ships parked in Cuba and Venezuela and this is not seen as expansion of Russian power towards the heartland of the United States is ludicrous.[/quote]

I don’t think you understand what the security dilemma is. That certainly doesn’t present one to the US.
[/quote]

Oh, I get it. You ever hear of the Cuban Missile Crisis? The Russians have been creating a security delemma in our part of the world for a long time. They just don’t like it because the tables have now turned against them. If they don’t like Nato being in their “sphere of interest” then they should get the hell out of ours. [/quote]

America has always 100% of the time started the ‘internationalism’ that means Russians are in ‘your part of the world’. e.g. the Cuban Missile Crisis happened because Kennedy put Nukes in Turkey - Russia trying to put weapons in Cuba was a response to that. Contemporarily Americans field of interest and influence is for some bizarre reason in the Middle East.

This is the most bizarre thing about America. THe continent you are part of could easily be your only field of influence. If you made friends all the way down to Brazil and had some good free trade deals, your continent could be completely self sufficient. You are all even the same religion. You wouldn’t even need to think about Muslims, Europe, Russians, anything like that.

But for some reason, America spent the bulk of the 20th century supporting the most corrupt South American dictators who killed and tortured their own citizens while trying to be nice to people in the Middle East.

Its AMerica which has the backward foreign policy - which is basically ‘have as much influence as far away from us as possible; neglect all the countries close to us’.