[quote]H factor wrote:
Obviously many of the things we say about men would be true as well. That wasn’t my point in saying what does it mean to be a man. I wanted to know what the forum thought good “men” should do. [/quote]
Do you mind going first? So to be accurate now, you’ve said what good people should do. But, what about men, specifically?
A man should have sexual relations with a woman within the confines of marriage.
The confines of marriage bit being applicable both to men and women. But a man should have sexual relations with a woman. Vice verse for woman, obviously. She with man.
So that defines actual “man” moral obligation. Man with woman, only.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
I said we could start a thread about women later. [/quote]
I think it’s important, though. If all these universal moral obligations are actually unisex, well, it’s a topic about people in general.
Shouldn’t these obligations be somehow unique to men?
[/quote]
Sloth, you have a good point about the universal morals thing. But on this men vs. all people thing, maybe not. One might reasonably do the following:
explicitly or implicitly stipulate that the conversation will
be about the difference between a physically mature male human
being and a man
emphasize responsibilities that male human beings are more likely
to shirk than female human beings (look after offspring); things
that male human beings are more likely to be able to do than female
human beings (provide assistance requiring physical strength);
and things that are customarily considered more important or more
appropriate for a man to do than a woman (provide assistance involving
physical risk)
[quote]H factor wrote:
undo: That’s funny. Where is it from? I haven’t really watched TV other than live sports in 3 years. Is it a funny cartoon?
[/quote]
Funny cartoon show. I have only seen episodes on video on YouTube.
[quote]undoredo wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
undo: That’s funny. Where is it from? I haven’t really watched TV other than live sports in 3 years. Is it a funny cartoon?
[/quote]
Funny cartoon show. I have only seen episodes on video on YouTube.[/quote]
Looks good. I’ll check it out.
[quote]undoredo wrote:
[/quote]
Then why isn’t it THAT, the shirking of particular responsibilities, which makes a man?
[quote]undoredo wrote:
Well, if unisex moral obligations are being attached, mature human covers it. Adult, to be more succinct.
It’s like everyone is scared to say something exclusively about men, even in a thread with men in the title. So they actually go on about gender-neutral obligations.
“When kids grow, and are adults, they should take care of their children.”
[quote]I understand how subjective it is. I don’t think we have a problem producing men either. We have a ton of great men in this country. How do we make sure we make great men at a higher rate than “boys.”
I view the owner of that West Virgina water company as a boy. He screwed up. He didn’t apologize. He’s a boy. I view Chris Christie’s apology as something a man should do. He screwed up (or people on his watch screwed up) and he apologized. A lot. Men acknowledge when they mess things up. I have no clue what Christie actually knew and when and I don’t even really know if I like Chris Christie or not. I think what Christie did in apologizing was behave as a man should and I think that West Virgina dude acted as if boys do.
At times I’m pissed off at Obama because I don’t think he always acts like a man. Men don’t shift blame. “boys” shift blame. Like I was saying I was hoping people wouldn’t get up in the super small details and so far that’s all we’ve done. Guess this thread isn’t going the way I thought it may :)[/quote]
It’s not easy, and I don’t blame you for it, but seriously, I don’t think judging other men from a great distance is what makes us men.
And why does a man have plain obligation to care for a child that the mother decided to let live? If at any point during the pregnancy he advises an abortion, does this place all of the obligation for caring for the child on her, if she chooses to carry it to term?
F: I’m pregnant.
M: Abort it. I don’t want to care for a child
F: No. Let’s go ahead and figure out how much you’ll owe in child support, and how many weekends a month you’re obligated to spend with your kid (so momma can go out).
F: I’m pregnant.
M: Sweet! I’m going to be in my kid’s life. I’m going to be the best dad ever.
F. Well, no, I’m getting an abortion.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]undoredo wrote:
Well, if unisex moral obligations are being attached, mature human covers it. Adult, to be more succinct.
It’s like everyone is scared to say something exclusively about men, even in a thread with men in the title. So they actually go on about gender-neutral obligations.
“When kids grow, and are adults, they should take care of their children.”[/quote]
Actually you’re the one who has kept bringing this up. Again focusing on the minute details. I don’t know if it’s intentional or unintentional, but the thread pretty much has no chance of working with you insisting on it being about stuff you know everyone will disagree with.
I will stop trying to fight it as it is getting me nowhere. I had hoped this would be better. Oh well.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
Obviously many of the things we say about men would be true as well. That wasn’t my point in saying what does it mean to be a man. I wanted to know what the forum thought good “men” should do. [/quote]
Do you mind going first? So to be accurate now, you’ve said what good people should do. But, what about men, specifically?
[/quote]
I did this in the op and I said hopefully people will focus on certain things. You did read my original post I would assume. I pretty much laid out how I was hoping the discussion would go.
This was before you tried to deflect towards religion, or why not women, or gay people or anything else. Like I said we can’t have the thread if that’s the direction you want to take it so never mind then and we have two pages of nothing.
I hate it when simple questions are hijacked with the intention of making a different point.
HH- I am going to alter your question to steer us away from the current direction.
Instead of trying to determine what it means to be a man - how about “what type of person do you want to be?”
Responsible?
Honest?
Dependable?
Happy?
Strong?
Open-minded?
Educated?
jnd
It’s odd that you’ve asked that question on this site as TC has written quite a lot on the subject. Maybe an article like this could provide some context for a discussion.
cliff notes:
The Traits of Manliness
Like I said, I’ve thought about this a lot, and my feeble brain has come up with several manliness characteristics that I think are universally true.
Authenticity: The majority of men are counterfeit. They assume the opinions, mannerisms, and even fashion tastes of the masses. Much of what they say is a lie, because the truth would damage their self-image, or at least the image they want to project.
Authenticity means being true to your character; it’s being exactly what’s claimed, free of hypocrisy.
Bravery: When I use this word, I don’t mean the ability to bear pain. Granted, being able to bear pain is courageous if it’s done in order to complete some heroic task, but lacerating your femoral artery while cutting out pictures of underwear models for your latest boner collage and refusing to go to the doctor isn’t brave and it isn’t manly, only stupid.
Bravery comes in many forms. It can come in the form of physical self-sacrifice or emotional self-sacrifice. It’s going against popular opinion, standing up for injustice when it might damage your standing in your community.
It’s boldly facing bad news instead of avoiding it. It’s realizing that everything worthwhile has some sort of pain associated with it.
Confidence: Cockiness is different from confidence. One is a false front, enacted to protect your self-image and one is self-assuredness in your abilities, thoughts, and actions.
Confidence allows you to consider other people’s opinions without having your ego damaged. Unfortunately, most guys hunt for opinions that match their own:
“Geez, that guy agrees with me. He sure is smart!”
Honesty: I’m convinced that every third thing said by the average man is an exaggeration or a downright lie. Again, it’s all an attempt to preserve or project a false self-image.
I suppose this category links closely with authenticity, but there are some obvious distinctions. Honesty also has to do with not stealing and not cheating, which are merely other forms of parasitism. Manliness means relying on your own talents and skills to acquire the things you need. It also means saying “no” occasionally to those things you might want but don’t need. (Tiger take heed.)
Purpose: Unfortunately, most men don’t have any purpose in life, other than recreation and, in general, distractions of all kind whether they be sports, cars, gaming, or collecting Snapple bottle tops.
A man’s got to have some purpose or purposes, whether they’re internal (pertaining to emotional growth, personal growth), intrapersonal (family and friends), or external (occupational).
Maybe you want to be a truly qualified trainer or coach whose hunger for getting better never dies. That’s a fine purpose. Maybe you want to be the best husband or father or friend that you can be, constantly giving energy to people you care about. Also a fine purpose. Or maybe you just want to develop the inner you, discovering
your motivations and purposes, while uncovering your contradictions and curing your own neuroses, which is a very fine purpose.
Men are truly content when they’re learning something new or accomplishing some task. Boys are content when they’re playing.
Rock-Fucking-Solid Human Beings
Oddly enough, these manliness “virtues” are also what makes a good woman a good woman, which brings into question the whole manliness term.
Another problem is that we use the terms manliness and masculinity interchangeably. Tearing fish guts out with your teeth would definitely be deemed masculine. Chugging beer after beer and engorging on greasy animal meat is pretty solidly masculine, as would using your dick instead of a hammer to frame a house. Likewise, cheating on your wife again and again and again could definitely be labeled masculine, but that, or any of the preceding masculine traits, has nothing to with true manliness.
Maybe we need another term for manliness, one that satisfies the man/woman thing and one that doesn’t get so easily thrown in the muck with masculinity.
It’s a tough one. Maybe we should just call them rock-fucking-solid human beings. Sure, from now on, people who are authentic, brave, confident, honest, and purposeful are rock-fucking-solid human beings.
[quote]jnd wrote:
Instead of trying to determine what it means to be a man - how about “what type of person do you want to be?”
Responsible?
Honest?
Dependable?
Happy?
Strong?
Open-minded?
Educated?
jnd[/quote]
So, person.
[quote]dcb wrote:
It’s a tough one. Maybe we should just call them rock-fucking-solid human beings. Sure, from now on, people who are authentic, brave, confident, honest, and purposeful are rock-fucking-solid human beings.[/quote]
Human beings.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]jnd wrote:
Instead of trying to determine what it means to be a man - how about “what type of person do you want to be?”
Responsible?
Honest?
Dependable?
Happy?
Strong?
Open-minded?
Educated?
jnd[/quote]
So, person.
[/quote]
Not all persons have these qualities/characteristics. The question is which ones (not that this list is exhaustive) do you want to embody.
jnd
Led Zeppelin already addressed this subject. You darn kids these days. If it wasn’t for Hollywood and their period pieces you wouldn’t know anything at all.
j/k
No I’m not. GET OFF MY GRASS!
[quote]jnd wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]jnd wrote:
Instead of trying to determine what it means to be a man - how about “what type of person do you want to be?”
Responsible?
Honest?
Dependable?
Happy?
Strong?
Open-minded?
Educated?
jnd[/quote]
So, person.
[/quote]
Not all persons have these qualities/characteristics. The question is which ones (not that this list is exhaustive) do you want to embody.
jnd
[/quote]
Well, males and females (from child to adult), can show these characteristics to varying degrees. As you say we’re talking about a good or bad person (pretending good/bad morality exists). And, not, what is a man. I mean, if an upstanding pre-teen girl embodied all these characteristics she wouldn’t be a man. Or, would she…
So what actually makes a man?
Well, keeping a skeptical mindset in the background, a man is shorthand for sexually mature male. “Good,” “bad,” whatever. However, we’ve rejected the existence of universal morality. Subsequently, we rejected good and evil as projections of our prejudices and biases manifested as morally judgmental language. So, yeah, just “man.” Lose the good and bad (moral judgements) stuff.
So, sexually mature male.
Yet, science has mastered this, too. So we should probably include post-op trans. Or, maybe at least women on male hormones, surgery or not?
Then again, our universities are teaching that gender is a social construct. Yes, I’ve personally been held captive by the type of general education social science/humanities courses teaching this. So, should we include gender-displaced women (see themselves as men trapped in women’s bodies) who have yet to go (or refuse to go) under hormonal and/or gender-reassignment surgery? Well, it would be racist (or is it just bigoted or chauvinistic) not to.
So, maybe, feeling like a male inside a sexually mature body of any sex.
Then again, perhaps one could feel like a mature male trapped in a sexually immature body of any sex.
So yeah, a pre-teen girl could be a man.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
And why does a man have plain obligation to care for a child that the mother decided to let live? If at any point during the pregnancy he advises an abortion, does this place all of the obligation for caring for the child on her, if she chooses to carry it to term?
F: I’m pregnant.
M: Abort it. I don’t want to care for a child
F: No. Let’s go ahead and figure out how much you’ll owe in child support, and how many weekends a month you’re obligated to spend with your kid (so momma can go out).
F: I’m pregnant.
M: Sweet! I’m going to be in my kid’s life. I’m going to be the best dad ever.
F. Well, no, I’m getting an abortion.
[/quote]
Wear a condom.