ElevenMag, you are totally confusing necessity with what we’re actually interested in: optimizing efficient muscle gain. Your line of reasoning would be similar to my looking into the minimum amt of protein I need (…like .5g/lb) and using that as my base point. No one here is interested in necessity–we’re interested in the extra things that our bodies can use to make the best gains.
so, do you believe you can get big without carbs? I don’t believe you can
No, that’s not the point I was making. People are sugarholics these days in bodybuilding. I was trying to say that you store way more glycogen (carb energy) then you give yourself credit for. You only need to replenish these stores when they run out or top them off, no more is necessary. You don’t need carbs at every meal, all day. You don’t need pre and post workout carbs each workout. All that crap is pseudo-science perpetuated for you to buy supplements.
ah ok fair enough, I’d agree that carbs are overdone by most people
[quote]The3Commandments wrote:
ElevenMag, you are totally confusing necessity with what we’re actually interested in: optimizing efficient muscle gain. Your line of reasoning would be similar to my looking into the minimum amt of protein I need (…like .5g/lb) and using that as my base point. No one here is interested in necessity–we’re interested in the extra things that our bodies can use to make the best gains.[/quote]
Actually, its is 100% correct for optimizing efficient muscle gain. What do you think all these carbohydrates do when you eat them. They get stored to be used as energy. This is either as glycogen if you stores are low or as triglycerides which go to fat cells for long term storage. You have small reserves of glycogen in all your muscles and a extremely large storage, in comparison, in your liver. This glycogen is used as primary fuel to move the weights in high intensity situations (i.e. lifting weights). Eating carbs all the time, before working out, or after working out doesn’t somehow boost your amount of glycogen avaiable. Therefore you just get fat storage as triglycerides when you eat too much. Triglycerides are terrible for you. F*cking sugarholics
-
Low carb/keto diet.
Because I started out obese in 2008, my first goal was to lose fat. Keto/Low carb along with too much of a caloric deficit wasted the first 2 years of my training life. I did lose weight (20kg), but not that much bodyfat. -
Bulking/Overeating.
This is obviously dependent on individual physiology, but bulking has just led to unwanted fat gain for me. But now I’m on Indigo, I find I can eat a lot more then usual without any of the bloating or ill effects that I used to experience from eating big. -
Starting Strength + 5/3/1.
Did SS for 6 months or so. Didn’t get much stronger, got bigger in the legs, everything else looked the same. Did 5/3/1 for about 6 months as well (about a year after SS), didn’t get stronger, didn’t look much different. -
No focus.
Training without a program just led to me doing way too much volume in each session, and no real progression.
[quote]ElevenMag wrote:
[quote]The3Commandments wrote:
ElevenMag, you are totally confusing necessity with what we’re actually interested in: optimizing efficient muscle gain. Your line of reasoning would be similar to my looking into the minimum amt of protein I need (…like .5g/lb) and using that as my base point. No one here is interested in necessity–we’re interested in the extra things that our bodies can use to make the best gains.[/quote]
Actually, its is 100% correct for optimizing efficient muscle gain. What do you think all these carbohydrates do when you eat them. They get stored to be used as energy. This is either as glycogen if you stores are low or as triglycerides which go to fat cells for long term storage. You have small reserves of glycogen in all your muscles and a extremely large storage, in comparison, in your liver. This glycogen is used as primary fuel to move the weights in high intensity situations (i.e. lifting weights). Eating carbs all the time, before working out, or after working out doesn’t somehow boost your amount of glycogen avaiable. Therefore you just get fat storage as triglycerides when you eat too much. Triglycerides are terrible for you. F*cking sugarholics
[/quote]
Agree. You need carbs to replenish the muscle reserves of glycogen IF you train the anaerobic way.
BUT, you could spread your carb needs over 3, even 6, or only 1 meal/day. So you could eat carbs periWO or you could not. It’s your choice.
Read Miyaki’s articles/books. Everything will become limpid
Mat’
[quote]mat_angus wrote:
[quote]ElevenMag wrote:
[quote]The3Commandments wrote:
ElevenMag, you are totally confusing necessity with what we’re actually interested in: optimizing efficient muscle gain. Your line of reasoning would be similar to my looking into the minimum amt of protein I need (…like .5g/lb) and using that as my base point. No one here is interested in necessity–we’re interested in the extra things that our bodies can use to make the best gains.[/quote]
Actually, its is 100% correct for optimizing efficient muscle gain. What do you think all these carbohydrates do when you eat them. They get stored to be used as energy. This is either as glycogen if you stores are low or as triglycerides which go to fat cells for long term storage. You have small reserves of glycogen in all your muscles and a extremely large storage, in comparison, in your liver. This glycogen is used as primary fuel to move the weights in high intensity situations (i.e. lifting weights). Eating carbs all the time, before working out, or after working out doesn’t somehow boost your amount of glycogen avaiable. Therefore you just get fat storage as triglycerides when you eat too much. Triglycerides are terrible for you. F*cking sugarholics
[/quote]
Agree. You need carbs to replenish the muscle reserves of glycogen IF you train the anaerobic way.
BUT, you could spread your carb needs over 3, even 6, or only 1 meal/day. So you could eat carbs periWO or you could not. It’s your choice.
Read Miyaki’s articles/books. Everything will become limpid
Mat’
[/quote]
Miyaki is mostly correct. You don’t even need them once a day. You have roughly 4 days of glycogen stored in your liver.
Although I would like to say beware of miyakis published stuff. He’s a plagiarizer
ITT: carbz serve only to replenish glycogen stores instead of inducing varied hormonal responses.
Got it. GL with that.
[quote]ElevenMag wrote:
[quote]The3Commandments wrote:
ElevenMag, you are totally confusing necessity with what we’re actually interested in: optimizing efficient muscle gain. Your line of reasoning would be similar to my looking into the minimum amt of protein I need (…like .5g/lb) and using that as my base point. No one here is interested in necessity–we’re interested in the extra things that our bodies can use to make the best gains.[/quote]
Actually, its is 100% correct for optimizing efficient muscle gain. What do you think all these carbohydrates do when you eat them. They get stored to be used as energy. This is either as glycogen if you stores are low or as triglycerides which go to fat cells for long term storage. You have small reserves of glycogen in all your muscles and a extremely large storage, in comparison, in your liver. This glycogen is used as primary fuel to move the weights in high intensity situations (i.e. lifting weights). Eating carbs all the time, before working out, or after working out doesn’t somehow boost your amount of glycogen avaiable. Therefore you just get fat storage as triglycerides when you eat too much. Triglycerides are terrible for you. F*cking sugarholics
[/quote]
You sir, are a retard. I’d already gathered that from many of your previous ramblings in other threads. Gee, I guess many of the greatest bodybuilders on this site (Stu, zraw etc) and elsewhere are downright WRONG in advising carb intake around the workout window.
An individual’s metabolism must be taken into account when looking at carbs. Me, for example, well shit if I’m not eating a good deal of carbs EVERY meal I flatten out very quickly. My metabolism is SHIT hot. I consume a 200g malto + 20g BCAA shake during my workouts, and without that I’ll feel flat/like shit after.
[quote]ElevenMag wrote:
You have roughly 4 days of glycogen stored in your liver.
[/quote]
but as soons as you weight train (anaerobic), you use your glycogen muscle stores.
If these stores are empty, you use the liver one. If it is empty…guess what do you use ?
Mat’
“Strength Training” Bench, squats, and deads without any assistance haven’t done shit for me.
Heavy weight, low reps.
Flat bench
not running
[quote]ElevenMag wrote:
[quote]The3Commandments wrote:
ElevenMag, you are totally confusing necessity with what we’re actually interested in: optimizing efficient muscle gain. Your line of reasoning would be similar to my looking into the minimum amt of protein I need (…like .5g/lb) and using that as my base point. No one here is interested in necessity–we’re interested in the extra things that our bodies can use to make the best gains.[/quote]
Actually, its is 100% correct for optimizing efficient muscle gain. What do you think all these carbohydrates do when you eat them. They get stored to be used as energy. This is either as glycogen if you stores are low or as triglycerides which go to fat cells for long term storage. You have small reserves of glycogen in all your muscles and a extremely large storage, in comparison, in your liver. This glycogen is used as primary fuel to move the weights in high intensity situations (i.e. lifting weights). Eating carbs all the time, before working out, or after working out doesn’t somehow boost your amount of glycogen avaiable. Therefore you just get fat storage as triglycerides when you eat too much. Triglycerides are terrible for you. F*cking sugarholics
[/quote]
Wow. No. Unless I am misunderstanding you, you’re completely wrong. Studies as far back as the 1960s have supported the idea that you can increase time to exhaustion under heavy exercise with a variation in diet, AS WELL AS increasing the total amount of glycogen available. here: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1748-1716.1967.tb03720.x/abstract That was in 1967 and there are literally hundreds of other studies supporting the same or similar.
So wrong on both counts.
Furthermore, ingestion of carbohydrates during workout has been shown to increase time to exhaustion in both endurance and strength training. Longer time to exhaustion equates to a greater growth stimulus being sent to the muscles as well as increased performance. So you are indisputably wrong on that note too. Again, there are literally studies upon studies showing an increase in performance and time to exhaustion. Oh, and it has also been shown by a bunch of studies that a protein + carbohydrate drink increases time to exhaustion over a carb only drink on a second exercise session. Here: Europe PMC And there are dozens more.
Oh and triglycerides are ESSENTIAL for you. You do not get fat mobilization or usage without them. Chylomicrons in the blood are the main transport mechanism for fat to be used as fuel. TOO HIGH a content of blood triglycerides is bad for you, but you need these tryglycerides to shuttle them around to the tissues they need to be broken down in.
So no, you’re wrong. There is no such thing as an ‘essential carbohydrate’ for survival since the body can synthesize them from cough these unhealthy triglycerides. Fine. But we’re not talking survival are we? No. We’re talking muscle size and strength gains. And the jury is absolutely positively in: carbs help. Carb + protein drinks help. And so does consuming them around the workout–if the workout is hard enough and intense enough.
Now if your argument is that VLC diets are “healthier” long term, in sedentary individuals, then maybe ok. Lower insulin load is linked to a lot of health benefits. Of course anything overeaten is bad. And of course I agree with you that people eat and drink too much sugar these days, at all points during the day. But no, you’re wrong on all of the science. Further you might be interested to know, there are specific patterns of glycogen depletion inside the muscle tissue that take place during exercise, so not all muscle glycogen is created equal either.
[quote]mat_angus wrote:
[quote]ElevenMag wrote:
You have roughly 4 days of glycogen stored in your liver.
[/quote]
but as soons as you weight train (anaerobic), you use your glycogen muscle stores.
If these stores are empty, you use the liver one. If it is empty…guess what do you use ?
Mat’
[/quote]
Not to mention that the liver glycogen stores aren’t exactly “quick” to access during exercise. That’s the entire reason that we don’t want to have to use them in the first place during exercise. So it’s not like you can just tap the liver glycogen stores just as fast as your muscle glycogen stores.
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
So no, you’re wrong. There is no such thing as an ‘essential carbohydrate’ for survival since the body can synthesize them from cough these unhealthy triglycerides. Fine. But we’re not talking survival are we? No. We’re talking muscle size and strength gains. And the jury is absolutely positively in: carbs help. Carb + protein drinks help. And so does consuming them around the workout–if the workout is hard enough and intense enough.
Now if your argument is that VLC diets are “healthier” long term, in sedentary individuals, then maybe ok. Lower insulin load is linked to a lot of health benefits. Of course anything overeaten is bad. And of course I agree with you that people eat and drink too much sugar these days, at all points during the day. [/quote]
wow. Nothing to add.
Nate, get out this body ! 
Mat’
low volume lifting and push/pull never worked for me… lighter weights and a ton of volume are my keys to long term success
[quote]WOOO wrote:
low volume lifting and push/pull never worked for me… lighter weights and a ton of volume are my keys to long term success[/quote]
Can you show pic of your long term success?
Training 3-4x a week with no cardio to ‘add mass’
Biggest load of shit ever.
Training 6-12x a week for me is best, I throw in a few crossfit ‘WODs’ for cardio and depending on what they are they help with size/strength too.
[quote]GTFOmyPowerRack wrote:
[quote]WOOO wrote:
low volume lifting and push/pull never worked for me… lighter weights and a ton of volume are my keys to long term success[/quote]
Can you show pic of your long term success?[/quote]
i hope you realize that long term success is different for everyone. if you want to be super strong then of course lighter weights with a ton of volume isnt going to suit your goal, but his is clearly different. no need to be a dick and ask for a picture so you can find a way to bring him down.
[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
[quote]Triceptaurus wrote:
It’s all just shit sugar and of no use at all (maybe for a bodybuilder the day before a comp, but dats it.) Carbs don’t build muscle, don’t repair muscle and don’t build cell walls.
[/quote]
Exactly. I just like to pretend that carbs play a vital role in overall physique improvement (gaining and cutting), but I guess I’ll fess up here… it’s all just a sham. Many other Pros and coaches do this too. It’s actually a giant conspiracy. In fact, Thibs and I had a huge laugh about it over some carb-free beers when the cameras weren’t filming us last time I was out in Colorado.
S[/quote]
There’s a difference with carbs and sugar. Sugar is a subgroup of carbs. Carbs = carbohydrates are broken into glucose(sugar) in the body, which is broken and turned into ATP, and ATP is what’s doing all the work in the body, even your weight lifting and protein synthesis from amino acids.
Main problem with “shit sugar” is that it’s absorbed so quickly and causes an unwantedly big insulin spike. Therefore starchy carb sources are better, as the molecule chain is broken more slowly and the spike is smaller and continues for a longer time.
Nobody can live happy and healthy with protein and fat alone. Even vegetables have carbs.