What Am I Missing, brah?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

Just because you blame Islam that does not make it so either, yet here we are.

[/quote]

Orion, give me a quote from the New Testament which tells Christians to specifically burn witches at the stake.[/quote]

thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

I know it is not in the NT, but if Christians can selectively ignore THE WORD OF GOD, why shopuld they not be able too?

Also, sola scriptura does not fly with the Roman Catholics, by far the largest of all Christian demoninations.

62

To quote Brother Chris:

“But the people doing it are part of Islam, it comes directly from the Qu’ran. The Spanish Inquisition, even though done by “Christians” was not scriptural.”

Would Christ, who stopped an adultress from being stoned by saying “He without sin cast the first stone” agree with witch burning? Would he agree with what Muslims are doing today?

From this passage, one could conclude that killing for religion or for the violation of a religious rule is wrong.

So Christians who did so were not following scripture.

(Personally I think Christianity was perverted when it was claimed by the Goths who overthrew Rome, but that’s just me… :wink:

63

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

So Christians who did so were not following scripture.
[/quote]

So you say.

Several Popes would disagree.

So who am I to believe?

64

As far as who am I to believe?

What’s the Orthodox Christians’ take on all of this?

Here’s a site for you addressing this issue:

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/history/world/wh0029.html

pay attention to the parts “Assessing the Inquisition” and “Learning from our mistakes.”

Interesting.

I wonder why they call it a mistake?

65

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
As far as who am I to believe?

What’s the Orthodox Christians’ take on all of this?

Here’s a site for you addressing this issue:

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/history/world/wh0029.html

pay attention to the parts “Assessing the Inquisition” and “Learning from our mistakes.”

Interesting.

I wonder why they call it a mistake?[/quote]

So?

There are several Imams condemning suicide bombings and terrorist tactics.

Doesnt stop anyone from from using the Qu ran as a source to justify them though.

66

[quote]orion wrote:
Doesnt stop anyone from from using the Qu ran as a source to justify them though.
[/quote]

so we agree on this point?

67

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:
Doesnt stop anyone from from using the Qu ran as a source to justify them though.
[/quote]

so we agree on this point?[/quote]

What point?

That the moment people accept absurdities at face value they are one step away from killing people for sport?

68

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Radical Islam is a problem, as is radical Christianity, but Islam surely is blown out of proportion. (In contrast problems with radical christians are collectively ignored for the most part)
[/quote]

The fact remains that this thread is not about Radical Christians, and even if it was, Radical Christians don’t go around killing people.

unless you are an abortion Doctor or your government infringed on a Christian Religion (WacoTx)

69

[quote]kamui wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

Orion, give me a quote from the New Testament which tells Christians to specifically burn witches at the stake.[/quote]

it’s not in the New Testament, but it’s still here, in the OT.
“thou shalt not suffer the sorceress to live” Exodus, 22:18

if more “inspiration” is needed to justify the burnings, you can always “interprete” these ones :

  • "Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.â?? (Luke 3:9)

  • “If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.” (John 15:6)

or you can just claim that the End is near, and then use good portions of the Revelations[/quote]

Look, I am Jewish and can tell you are reading that wrong. (It’s written in the fashion of the Talmud – parables with lessons. Think AESOP fables if you want to be secular.)

You have to look at the actor in the Bible. In those quotes, the actor is either G-d or the Christian’s Jesus ---- regardless, not the person being taught.

The specific concept is called a “mitzvah” — positive and negative commandments for the person.

A mitzvah is distinct from the consequence.

The consquence is dealt by G-d, not other people.

Religion haters are always quoting consequences of not following mitvahs as mitzvahs.

Anyway, if you actually want to understand what you are reading, look for what the PERSON is supposed to be doing, not the consquence of not doing a positive mitzvah or doing a negative mitzvah.

I presume this works with Christian scriptures, too.

70

I’m an atheist and I perfectly know this reading is wrong.

I know what a parable is and what a mitzvah is.
I know a text (any text) need to be read while paying attention to its context and global meaning.
And I know that only a truly twisted interpretation of the scripture can make you believe a witch-hunt is sanctionned by God.

but that’s not my point.

My point is that, historically, Exodus 22:18 and the “lake of fire” of the Revelation have been used to justify the witch-hunts.

I’m not saying the scripture is bad, or wrong.
I’m saying that bad and wrong hermeneutics happened, happens, and will happen again, providing the Book is read by fanatics.

It is certainly not a reason to condemn the Book.

or any book, for that matter.

71

There needs to be a separation of radical extremists and normal muslims IMO. Lets start by stop calling the radicals muslims/using the word Islam to talk about them

72

[quote]solidkhalid wrote:
There needs to be a separation of radical extremists and normal muslims IMO. Lets start by stop calling the radicals muslims/using the word Islam to talk about them[/quote]

Why? How are they rebelling against the tenets of Islam?

73

I think that’s the bottom line. During the Inquisition, the Church took it upon itself to destroy heretical cults, Manicheism, Gnosticism, Arianism, ect and non-believers like Jews, Muslims. They believed they were doing God’s work by spreading his religion and freeing the Holy Land from heretics.

The Muslims came out of Arabia almost as a reaction to the established religions of the time, the Orthodox and Catholic Churches which they viewed as heretical in their belief of one God.

Since that time there was a Reformation in the West and most of the East was conquered by the Muslims.

The Catholics, for the most part, no longer believe as they once did, while the Muslims, in the absence of a Reformation, believe the same way they always have since the beginning of their religion. Hell, they’ll even tell you their Koran hasn’t been changed in over 1400 years.

So it’s not a stretch to say the extremists are practicing their religion more faithfully than the so-called moderates.

While there may be Christian extremists, they are not endorced by any formal religious authority.

74

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
I think that’s the bottom line. During the Inquisition, the Church took it upon itself to destroy heretical cults, Manicheism, Gnosticism, Arianism, ect and non-believers like Jews, Muslims. They believed they were doing God’s work by spreading his religion and freeing the Holy Land from heretics.

The Muslims came out of Arabia almost as a reaction to the established religions of the time, the Orthodox and Catholic Churches which they viewed as heretical in their belief of one God.

Since that time there was a Reformation in the West and most of the East was conquered by the Muslims.

The Catholics, for the most part, no longer believe as they once did, while the Muslims, in the absence of a Reformation, believe the same way they always have since the beginning of their religion. Hell, they’ll even tell you their Koran hasn’t been changed in over 1400 years.

So it’s not a stretch to say the extremists are practicing their religion more faithfully than the so-called moderates.

While there may be Christian extremists, they are not endorced by any formal religious authority.[/quote]

There are no formal Muslim authorities, there is no such thing as a Catholic Muslim chrurch.

They are not one uniform block either, there are Sufis and Alewites on one side of the spectrum and Wahabites on the other.

75

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]milktruck wrote:
Bottom line is, all religions have been excuses for heinous shit, and nobody can point fingers. People are people and sociopaths come in all stripes, surprise surprise.

Why does present tense matter? You seemed to be comparing radical islam and radical christianity as fundamentally different in regard to their constituents propensity to do atrocious things. Any evidence that you dont like you dismiss by narrowing your definition, and you insult the intelligence of the person who gave the evidence.

You obviously are pushing an agenda here and trying to validate something you really want to believe.[/quote]

Hey Milky,

All I did was question another poster’s statement. (It’s still there, if you’d like to actually read it)

If that doesn’t fit YOUR agenda, then stay out of the discussion or start your own.[/quote]

Yeah and your premise that it matters when a religious sect was invoked to justify violence and oppression is you backpedalling. They are both susceptible to the same crap, because the crap is human, not religious. However, dogmatic belief systems are a great vessel to justify expression of some baser human tendencies. Christians are made of the same shit as Muslims who are made of the same shit as non-religious people, etc.

Sorry Im not allowed in the discussion if I question you, but thats they way these things work.

76

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]milktruck wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Radical Islam is a problem, as is radical Christianity, but Islam surely is blown out of proportion. (In contrast problems with radical christians are collectively ignored for the most part)

[/quote]

I’d be genuinely interested to see the instances of radical Christianity that can be equated in 1)scale and 2)heinousness with what we see from radical Muslims.

I’ll be the first to condemn those Christians carryinng out suicide bombings & public beheadings, and flying commercial airliners loaded with civilians into huge buildings packed with innocents. All IN THE NAME OF CHRISTIANITY, of course. [/quote]

The Crusades?

Wikipedia - The Crusades were a series of religiously sanctioned military campaigns waged by much of Western Christian Europe, particularly the Franks of France and the Holy Roman Empire. The specific crusades to restore Christian control of the Holy Land were fought over a period of nearly 200 years, between 1095 and 1291. Other campaigns in Spain and Eastern Europe continued into the 15th century. The Crusades were fought mainly by Roman Catholic forces (taking place after the East-West Schism and mostly before the Protestant Reformation) against Muslims who had occupied the near east since the time of the Rashidun Caliphate, although campaigns were also waged against pagan Slavs, pagan Balts, Jews, Russian and Greek Orthodox Christians, Mongols, Cathars, Hussites, Waldensians, Old Prussians, and political enemies of the various popes.[1][page needed] Orthodox Christians also took part in fighting against Islamic forces in some Crusades. Crusaders took vows and were granted penance for past sins, often called an indulgence.

So, like 200 to 400 years of killing?[/quote]

…wow…you just totally ruined everyone’s argument with…wikipedia. Good job.[/quote]

Ok tell me anything in there is factually wrong. Sorry I work a professional job and go to grad school full time and dont have time to get on Lexis Nexis to discuss politics on a bodybuilding site, lol. And I havent noticed any of the “rag heads are bad” crowd citing scholarly journals, either.

77

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]solidkhalid wrote:
There needs to be a separation of radical extremists and normal muslims IMO. Lets start by stop calling the radicals muslims/using the word Islam to talk about them[/quote]

Why? How are they rebelling against the tenets of Islam?

[/quote]

Hmm lets see, because its a religion of peace?

78

[quote]solidkhalid wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]solidkhalid wrote:
There needs to be a separation of radical extremists and normal muslims IMO. Lets start by stop calling the radicals muslims/using the word Islam to talk about them[/quote]

Why? How are they rebelling against the tenets of Islam?

[/quote]

Hmm lets see, because its a religion of peace?[/quote]

Someone should’ve told the “Prophet” himself.

80

[quote]orion wrote:
quote]

There are no formal Muslim authorities, there is no such thing as a Catholic Muslim chrurch.

They are not one uniform block either, there are Sufis and Alewites on one side of the spectrum and Wahabites on the other.

[/quote]

At one time there was a Caliph. There also was a Sultan. Most of the great Muslim leaders were conquerers. Go figure.

The worst we can hope for today is a Wahabi Caliphate ruled by Al Qaeda to counter the Reactionary Shia in Iran. That’s where it’s headed right now. For all you guys who hate Muslim dictators and kings this is the alternative.

Do you want that?

If not, then you surely can understand why we’re fighting this war (in Afganistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, ect…Iraq is another story).