We've Returned to the Golden Calf: Money

Karado, there are an enormous number of problems with this guy’s work. Methodologically, not one interpretive move he makes is defensible. Here are some examples…

  1. 5:04 - As linguists have understood for more than a century, the meaning of a Hebrew word has nothing to do with the word’s root. When you say someone is “nice,” are you intentionally calling them an “idiot?” That’s what the root of the word nice “means.” The meaning of a word is determined by its usage in context, not by its roots. That’s an extremely outdated and misleading way of understanding Hebrew and Greek words to begin with.

But this guy goes even further - (A) he assumes that one can assess the meaning of a noun (etz or “tree”) from the verb it is etymologically related to; (B) he fails to distinguish between literal senses of that verb’s root (“to be firm”) and metaphorical usages (“to close”); (C) then he reads that metaphorical usage of the verb back into the noun etz (“tree”), as etz really means “something closed, like a door!” This is absolutely backwards and illogical. Even though, once again, you cannot determine the meaning of a word in context based on its etymology, there is reason why etz and atsah have the same root - because the root denotes “firmness,” and this was how ancient Israelites characterized a tree (i.e., as something firm). The verb atsah can mean “to close” because the notion of firmness is intrinsic to the idea of closure.

  1. 5:21 - False - the Hebrew word for tree (etz) is not similar AT ALL to the word for generation (dor), and the reason why we TODAY (NOT in ancient Israel!) talk about “family trees” is because of the image of multiple branches arising from a common source. Consequently, I have no idea why he claims that the trees could be suggesting “openings to another dimension;” there’s nothing in the text to support that notion at all.

  2. 6:31 - Once again, he is trying to determine a word’s meaning based on its root. More importantly, the LXX translators and the NT writers all understood this word as referring to a snake, not something “like a snake,” and certainly not an extraterrestrial. So aside from the sheer fact that it is completely historically unlikely that the LXX translators and NT authors didn’t know what nahash really meant, the fact remains that authoritative Scripture (NT) says unambiguously that it was a serpent, so if “pastor” Jim were correct, that would mean that NT authors were wrong. That’s a huge problem…

  3. 7:17 - SO many things wrong here. (1) He completely mispronounces the Hebrew (its actually al gehoneka telek); (2) it is NOT rendered anywhere as “upon the belly and life,” as telek is the qal imperfect second masculine singular of the verb halak, and thus it means “you will go, move, walk.” It also has the meaning, “to live,” but that is a metaphorical extension of the verb’s main sense; (3) the preposition al (“upon, over, above”) CANNOT mean “from above,” because in order to mean that, it would need the preposition min (“from, out of”) attached to it; (4) the noun gahon CANNOT refer either to “a fetus” or even to a “womb;” the word for “womb” in Hebrew is COMPLETELY different (beten), and gahon ONLY occurs twice in the OT and BOTH times refers to creepy-crawly type animals (like SNAKES!); (5) this ridiculous reading also ignores the poetic nature of Yahweh’s condemnation - in Hebrew poetry, the first line puts forth an idea and the second reiterates that idea with different words or expands upon it. In this case, the phrase “dust you will eat” is an idiomatic way of saying, “you will crawl on your belly” (i.e., your face will always be in the dust). The second line makes NO sense if the first line is a reference to alien cloners!

That’s all I have time for right now. Maybe more later. This should be enough to show you that this guy doesn’t even know how to handle his sources.

[quote]Karado wrote:
That’s sweet of ya Tirib, I like how you constantly invite others to email you like you’re recruiting them for
Amway. >>>[/quote]
I’ll just say that God has shown favor in this. I’ll keep on doing it and do feel free yourself. I’m actually a rather nice fella by the grace of the Lord. We don’t have private messages here anymore or that’s what I’d be doing.

Here’s a tip. Today’s GOOD modern translations of the biblical documents are done by teams of people who are more than eminently qualified for the job. KingKai knows some of them personally. When somebody comes up with a theory that requires for it’s validity a treatment of the ancient text that nobody ever heard of except them? It’s crap. Believe it, love it, learn it and live it.

Knock off all this ridiculous nit wittery, get yourself an ESV (preferably the study bible) and lock yourself away with it until God breaks that stiff necked heart of yours. I promise you’ll wish you’d done it sooner.

Thx ‘KK’ and ‘T’…Especially ‘KK’ on the deeper stuff, that’s precisely what I’m lookin’ for,
I mean KK you could write a book debunking this all these guy’s vids …I am NOT easily impressed, but awesome job
and that is greatly appreciated.
However One of you guys COULD have said something about the verifications on the Joshua’s longest day from the ancients,
you see, now THAT was supercool and very interesting.
Here’s the deal, because what I’m also searching for IS stuff like this too, Books/Articles, etc. on NON Scriptual sources
verifying Scriptual events…make sense? It just gives the believer much more ‘‘ammo’’ that just shoving
Bibles in people faces, because the usual repellent response from other is absolutely natural especially when one is just wise
enough to understand the majority of the people’s exposure of Christianity is from television and the ‘‘internets’’,
lol.

King Kai, I’m not an ‘‘X-Files’’ kind of guy by any means, I barely even watched the friggin’ TV show, I don’t
read Sci-Fi much, and have hardly watched the ‘‘Ancient Aliens’’ series…my foundations don’t lie there.
But HOW does one Biblically explain the many ‘‘abductions’’ experienced by many different people around the world,
Jim Wilhelmson also ‘‘cleans’’ people of their so-called abduction experiences by bringing them to Jesus, and EVERY single
time these ‘‘Greys’’ show up to contactees, they RUN scared in the name of Jesus…so with all your excellent breakdown
on debunking Jim aside, what’s your theory on ‘‘abduction’’ experiences worldwide?..WHAT’S going on here?
This has NEVER happened before except in our time…people from all walks of life have experienced this, and they
simply cannot be all crazy and delusional…YES there are many crazy people out there, but one cannot deny something else
is ‘‘brewing’ beneath the surface.
Cattle/Animal mutilations where Sex organs have been removed with laser-like surgical precision, no blood present, very neat.
Story after story…consistencies like the ‘‘Greys’’ always communicating telepathically, and the ‘‘eyebrow raiser’’ that they
regularly called themselves “The Watchers”…is it just ‘‘coincidence’’ that this ‘‘title’’ from one Apocrypha, and also from The Book
Of Enoch?
And yes, yes I know all about how Enoch is not technically ‘‘scripture’’ yada yada, I KNOW all that…just sayin’…what’s going on,
and WHY were we not warned about this Scriptually?..or WERE we?
IDK.
This vid is one the best I’ve heard yet regarding Gen. 6…it SEEMS all related.
Thx.

EDIT: A Better Vid, I think.
IN THIS CORNER, the very erudite “King Kai”…In the other corner, PHD. Michael Heiser.
Michael’s credentials, from his site:

Mike Heiser is a scholar in the fields of biblical studies and the ancient Near East. He is the Academic Editor of Logos Bible Software. Mike earned the M.A. and Ph.D. in Hebrew Bible and Semitic Languages at the University of Wisconsin-Madison in 2004. He has also earned an M.A. in Ancient History from the University of Pennsylvania (major fields: Ancient Israel and Egyptology).

Mike’s main research interests are Israelite religion (especially Israelâ??s divine council), biblical theology, ancient Near Eastern religion, biblical & ancient Semitic languages, and ancient Jewish binitarian monotheism. He maintains three blogs: The Naked Bible (biblical studies), PaleoBabble (weird beliefs about antiquity), and UFO Religions (how belief in ETs intersects with religion). He teaches ancient languages online at MEMRA. For more information, see his FAQ and CV.

[quote]Karado wrote:
But HOW does one Biblically explain the many ‘‘abductions’’ experienced by many different people around the world,
Jim Wilhelmson also ‘‘cleans’’ people of their so-called abduction experiences by bringing them to Jesus, and EVERY single
time these ‘‘Greys’’ show up to contactees, they RUN scared in the name of Jesus…so with all your excellent breakdown
on debunking Jim aside, what’s your theory on ‘‘abduction’’ experiences worldwide?..WHAT’S going on here?
This has NEVER happened before except in our time…people from all walks of life have experienced this, and they
simply cannot be all crazy and delusional…YES there are many crazy people out there, but one cannot deny something else
is '‘brewing’ beneath the surface.
Cattle/Animal mutilations where Sex organs have been removed with laser-like surgical precision, no blood present, very neat.
Story after story…consistencies like the ‘‘Greys’’ always communicating telepathically, and the ‘‘eyebrow raiser’’ that they
regularly called themselves “The Watchers”…is it just ‘‘coincidence’’ that this ‘‘title’’ from one Apocrypha, and also from The Book
Of Enoch?
[/quote]

First of all, I don’t know why one HAS to explain these phenomena “biblically” - contrary to Wilhelmsen’s claim, the bible doesn’t speak on every single topic. Frankly, I couldn’t care less if it explains supposed “alien abductions;” I’d much rather it provide clear direction on the issue of abortion (which I still believe is wrong).

Secondly, all this stuff is hearsay. There is no solid evidence for what these people claim they are experiencing. That being said, why couldn’t it just be demonically induced hallucinations? Moreover, it is a documented fact that once a certain image has entered into the collective unconscious, people prone to hallucinations incorporate such imagery into their “visions.”

Finally, the Watchers is not a title from “one Apocrypha.” First Enoch (what you referred to as the book of Enoch) contains within it something scholars have called “The Book of the Watchers.” It is a section of First Enoch, because First Enoch is a composite document (i.e., it is a text made up of several other texts). And the simple fact is that the term “watcher” (i.e., one who watches) is sufficiently obvious as a title for a group that watches another group that it is no surprise that two different groups would be called by that name. Moreover, there is no way of knowing that those who first started calling these apparitions “Watchers” had not heard of that title before.

In any case, I don’t have a final definitive theory on the subject. I’ve not seen sufficient evidence to prove that these visions of “greys” are anything other than mass hallucinations. People groups have been having such hallucinations throughout history; it’s not a new phenomenon.

I don’t really have time to watch the video, nor do I feel the need to argue with Dr. Heiser. I have tons of respect for the guy, and he is an outstanding proponent of the “angel-women cohabitation” interpretation of Genesis 6. This guy is LIGHTYEARS ahead of that “pastor” whose video you posted before.

But I think you’re missing the point, Karado - even though the “giants” interpretation of Nephilim is a viable option, Heiser does not believe these giants were really gigantic (13+ feet tall). Rather, he argues that few of them probably stood taller than 7 feet. Moreover, he does not believe they were born from extraterrestrials. There is nothing unorthodox about his approach.

Thx for your opinion, If there was a proponent for the '‘Angel View’ of Gen. 6, it surely would be Mr. Hesier,
I respect him too, and seems to present a very strong case for it no doubt…Really deep stuff, and yes I agree
he is much better than the other guy…I shoulda posted his vid FIRST instead lol.

On the abortion issue why would you want to have the Bible give more clear direction on it?
Did I hear you correctly on that?
The earliest writings known on this barbaric practice is found in The Book Of Enoch BTW.
Fallen Angel “Tamiel” apparently taught mankind “The strikes of the embryo in the womb”,
and shouldn’t “Thou shalt not kill” cover forbidding abortion anyway?
Looks pretty ‘cut and dried’ to me, unless I heard you wrong which I apologize in advance
if I did.

[quote]Karado wrote:<<< the '‘Angel View’ of Gen. 6,…Really deep stuff, >>>[/quote]Seriously?

2nd Peter 1:3-11 (ESV)

[quote]3-[God’s] divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, 4-by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. 5-For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6-and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7-and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8-For if these qualitiesf are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9-For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. 10-Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. 11-For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.[/quote]THAT, my friend IS really deep stuff.

I actually have a buddy who is an atheist who read the old testament and new testament to prove that one can be a good person with out christian morals. He did it by highlighting and bookmarking all the displays of immorality in the bible. He’s definitely one of the most reliable and intelligent person I know. I do agree with the gidst of the original post, I think capitalism is fucked and creates financial discrimination against the poor and flips the problem to seem like it is the poor who are to blame, when it is in fact the other way around.

When your buddy commands a universe to exist from nothing, I might be impressed with his definition of “good”.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
When your buddy commands a universe to exist from nothing, I might be impressed with his definition of “good”.
[/quote]

This.

[quote]Jlabs wrote:
I actually have a buddy who is an atheist who read the old testament and new testament to prove that one can be a good person with out christian morals. He did it by highlighting and bookmarking all the displays of immorality in the bible. He’s definitely one of the most reliable and intelligent person I know. I do agree with the gidst of the original post, I think capitalism is fucked and creates financial discrimination against the poor and flips the problem to seem like it is the poor who are to blame, when it is in fact the other way around.[/quote]

This is absolutely nonsensical. Applying an arbitrarily-contrived moral system to the biblical text and judging it based on that moral system in no way proves that the Bible promotes immorality, nor does it prove that one is a good person without Christian morals. It simply proves that the bible doesn’t meet your own arbitrary standard.

[quote]Karado wrote:
Thx for your opinion, If there was a proponent for the '‘Angel View’ of Gen. 6, it surely would be Mr. Hesier,
I respect him too, and seems to present a very strong case for it no doubt…Really deep stuff, and yes I agree
he is much better than the other guy…I shoulda posted his vid FIRST instead lol.

On the abortion issue why would you want to have the Bible give more clear direction on it?
Did I hear you correctly on that?
The earliest writings known on this barbaric practice is found in The Book Of Enoch BTW.
Fallen Angel “Tamiel” apparently taught mankind “The strikes of the embryo in the womb”,
and shouldn’t “Thou shalt not kill” cover forbidding abortion anyway?
Looks pretty ‘cut and dried’ to me, unless I heard you wrong which I apologize in advance
if I did.
[/quote]

I consider the issue of contraception to be included in the issue of abortion, and contraception is not an issue which the Scriptures discuss.

“THAT, my friend IS really deep stuff.”

I agree you, 2nd Peter is deep as welll…And so Mr. Heiser’s breakdown of Gen. 6., why
you were seemingly curt and dismissive with the one word ''Seriously?" comment is puzzling, that’s fine… do you share
the Gen.6 ‘Angel view’ there Tirib? And if you don’t what’s your best evidence
to solidly support an alternate view other than Heiser’s if you disagree?
I’m all ears, really…and my girlfriend thinks my ears are pretty big…but kinda cute too.
She’s weird.

[quote]Karado wrote:

I’m all ears, really…and my girlfriend thinks my ears are pretty big…but kinda cute too.
She’s weird.

[/quote]

You like a Ferangi from Star Trek or something?

I will say I am enjoying y’alls discussion on these topics. Never thought of some of these things before. Not saying I beleive the 12 foot tall Giants or extraterestial abductions.

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:

[quote]Jlabs wrote:
I actually have a buddy who is an atheist who read the old testament and new testament to prove that one can be a good person with out christian morals. He did it by highlighting and bookmarking all the displays of immorality in the bible. He’s definitely one of the most reliable and intelligent person I know. I do agree with the gidst of the original post, I think capitalism is fucked and creates financial discrimination against the poor and flips the problem to seem like it is the poor who are to blame, when it is in fact the other way around.[/quote]

This is absolutely nonsensical. Applying an arbitrarily-contrived moral system to the biblical text and judging it based on that moral system in no way proves that the Bible promotes immorality, nor does it prove that one is a good person without Christian morals. It simply proves that the bible doesn’t meet your own arbitrary standard. [/quote]

Not to mention the fact that you can consider the old testament a “historical” text: i.e. a telling of events, wars, campaigns, and history of the jewish people–it’s completely nonsense to bookmark displays of immorality in a historical text. Yep, I bookmarked Henry VIII killing his wives in my History of Western Europe text because it shows the textbook promotes immorality… I mean seriously??

And in any case this thread is now thoroughly derailed.

“I will say I am enjoying y’alls discussion on these topics. Never thought of some of these things before. Not saying I beleive the 12 foot tall Giants or extraterestial abductions.”

You never thought of some of these things before because you were KEPT from learning them,
I was asking King Kai about any Biblical hint of ET’s and ‘‘abductions’’ because they seem to be supernatural
events, and if they are, Scripture must have addressed them in ONE way or ANOTHER…God wouldn’t
leave us ‘hanging’ with this…But before I continue, let me address that I don’t believe these are ET’s in the
SECULAR sense, Aliens from other planets…They are LIKELY the Fallen Ones from other dimensions that are
‘crossing over’ with a possible connection/relationship with the ‘‘Watchers’’ from the Book Of Enoch, a
work SPECIFICALLY addressed to the latter generations of Mankind,
So is it just COINCIDENCE the Dead Sea Scrolls surfaced again in 1940’s and ‘hidden’
since then for over 40 years until they were carefully studied, translated, and legitimized?
And that The Church was truly concerned about them that they could tweak and
change some long held beliefs, and ‘safer’ and more ‘accepted’ paradigms?

The ‘King Kai’s’/‘Micheal Heiser’s’ of 20th Century UFOlogy Jaques Vallee and J. Allen Hynek
concluded these entities were NOT ET’s in the traditional sense, but were evil
and interdimensional…two of the most respected investigators in that field of study concluded
that.
Sound strange? I realize that, Oh yes I fully realize and am aware how that sounds.
Strange things, But look at the ‘strange’ things we Christians believe ALREADY,
and this is not including the stuff that CATHOLICS believe, like a dead body lying in
state present day that has NEVER been embalmed and corrupted and has not turned to dust,
or a the Sun dancing in the Sky over Portugal about 100 years ago fully accepted by the Vatican as legit and as a miracle.

We believe that:

There was a virgin birth.

A coin appeared in a Fish’s mouth.

God spoke through a Donkey and a Burning bush.

A pre-incarnate Messiah supernaturally protected men from a fiery furnace.

An Evil one spoke through a Serpent.

Staffs turned into Serpents.

Waters that stood up on a heap to create a temporary alleyway.

Walking on water occurred.

Walking through walls occurred…etc.

So how much more ‘‘stranger’’ is the other stuff you’ve never heard about?
Go to a shrink and tell him God spoke to you through a Donkey…see what he tells you.
but it’s what WE believe.

I have been a Christian for 29 years Karado. (few months away) I think I have spent a grand total of one hour of that time thinking about this because there are numerous other theological issues the clarity of which will empower me to better love and serve my glorious master. I will NEVER be a better or worse Christian, man, husband or father because I have understood, or not, the particulars of the first 4 verses of Genesis 6. I just quoted you a passage where the great apostle tells us that in Christ we are promised to be made “partakers of the divine nature”. Participants in the very being of God. That I have escaped from the corruption of the world thereby and am being richly provided an entrance into the eternal kingdom of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. You’ll forgive me if I’m not overly stimulated by who the Nephilim were. Who cares(relatively speaking)?

Yes, it’s scripture. If I get time some day maybe I’ll look into it further. I am promising you right now that God does not care in this season of your life what you think about giants and spacemen. He is concerned that you get your rebellious tail in a bible believing church, let them teach you how to armor up to put the carnality out of your life so you can learn how to be an ambassador of Christ in the earth. You’re wasting God’s time. Stop it.

[quote]Karado wrote:

We believe that:

1 There was a virgin birth.

2 A coin appeared in a Fish’s mouth.

3 God spoke through a Donkey and a Burning bush.

4 A pre-incarnate Messiah supernaturally protected men from a fiery furnace.

5 An Evil one spoke through a Serpent.

6 Staffs turned into Serpents.

7 Waters that stood up on a heap to create a temporary alleyway.

8 Walking on water occurred.

[/quote]

I don’t know how to do quotes and break this up so I numbered them. To help me separate them.

1 With God all things are possible.
2 Gold nuggets worth $400-500 have been found in Bird’s Gizzards. Fish are caught using shiny objects all the time. Look at some current lures.
3 If God speaks you better listen.
4 Some think it was Jesus, and some think it was an Angel.
5 If God speaks through a donkey the Devil needs his animal. (This is tongue and cheek)
6 Still happens in India. The snakes just look like a staff because they get them to straighten up. It is weird to see.
7 Could have been a tsunami that allowed the waters to part
8 Japanese Ninjas do this.

You could have just said you can’t answer the question because you don’t know,
You know quite a bit about Aristotle and Aquinas though…just thought after about 30 years
you would know this stuff too, that’s all…you’re a pretty smart guy.
All I’m doing is asking questions…May I ask you another one?

Do you know how The Nephilim managed to reappear on Earth after The Flood?
I thought Mankind started from anew from the survivors on the Ark and everybody else drowned…So how did these
Fallen ones happen to return after the flood?
Did some of these abominations manage to survive the flood somehow? Was there a possible second Angel incursion?

1 ''With God all things are possible."

I agree, so what’s your point?

“2 Gold nuggets worth $400-500 have been found in Bird’s Gizzards. Fish are caught using shiny objects all the time. Look at some current lures.”

Hey man don’t shoot the fuckin’ messenger, the text says a coin was to found in a fish on the FIRST try to help pay a
tax debt to that period of time’s version of the IRS.

3 “If God speaks you better listen.”

I agree, what’s your point?

4 “Some think it was Jesus, and some think it was an Angel.”

Does it fucking matter? I’ll ask him when I get to the other side while I’m playing pool with Jeffery Dahmer.

5 ''If God speaks through a donkey the Devil needs his animal. (This is tongue and cheek)"

Not humorous at all…tongue in cheek or not

6 ''Still happens in India. The snakes just look like a staff because they get them to straighten up. It is weird to see."

Layoff those magic mushrooms Son, those bad trips in 3rd World Countries can get you seeing Gods with 8 Arms and blue skin.

7 ''Could have been a tsunami that allowed the waters to part."

So the Jews had to time it JUST right and run REALLY FAST to cross just before the Pharoahs drowned when the waters returned,
GEE, why didn’t I ever think of that possibility?

8 “Japanese Ninjas do this.”

Only when there’s a Tsunami but they sink a half second later.

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Karado wrote:

We believe that:

1 There was a virgin birth.

2 A coin appeared in a Fish’s mouth.

3 God spoke through a Donkey and a Burning bush.

4 A pre-incarnate Messiah supernaturally protected men from a fiery furnace.

5 An Evil one spoke through a Serpent.

6 Staffs turned into Serpents.

7 Waters that stood up on a heap to create a temporary alleyway.

8 Walking on water occurred.

[/quote]

I don’t know how to do quotes and break this up so I numbered them. To help me separate them.

1 With God all things are possible.
2 Gold nuggets worth $400-500 have been found in Bird’s Gizzards. Fish are caught using shiny objects all the time. Look at some current lures.
3 If God speaks you better listen.
4 Some think it was Jesus, and some think it was an Angel.
5 If God speaks through a donkey the Devil needs his animal. (This is tongue and cheek)
6 Still happens in India. The snakes just look like a staff because they get them to straighten up. It is weird to see.
7 Could have been a tsunami that allowed the waters to part
8 Japanese Ninjas do this. [/quote]

I don’t even understand what the point of this post was, D. Karado says we believe in miraculous occurrences, so you claim many of them aren’t all that miraculous? I seriously don’t know what you are trying to communicate.