We Won! Again!

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
…

Zap, I understand that Clinton had 8 years to go in there. And I agree with the Afghanistan invasion, although I think we botched that by not using our own troops more.

…

I don’t think Clinton should have invaded Afghanistan either, but I think he should have used more pressure to get Bin Laden out. It just was not on his radar.

While we were not perfect in Afghanistan more troops really wasn’t the answer. Most of our allies in Afghanistan would have turned on us if we would have brought in troops in quantities to do the job.

We did not want to get mired in Afghanistan like the Soviets did. The way to prevent that was to fight the war as we did, with native troops and US support.

I wish we could have used the same strategy in Iraq, but it really wasn’t feasible.

I too am uncomfortable with premptive wars. Of course we have been at a constant state of war with Iraq since 1991 although we certainly escalated it with the invasion to depose Saddam.[/quote]

Pressure is an odd word. I understand what you mean, but it would have been either not enough (for the neocons) or too much (for the folks like me). And I hadn’t thought of the fact that they may have turned on us in Afghanistan. However, I think that we should have made it a more “American” war, instead of using the warlords and such.

Iraq is still an enigma, or was, in foreign policy. If we were going to attack them for UN violations, we should have done it a hell of alot sooner than 2002. As I always say, the premises for the war were absolutely bullshit, and that is my main problem with our little shindig over there.

But I wonder sometimes, do other countries think about appeasing us? Do they look at us as the great invasion force, that is better dealt with by appeasing than by standing up for what they believe? We do not want to be the kind of country that the world looks on with this view…

62

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
But I wonder sometimes, do other countries think about appeasing us? Do they look at us as the great invasion force, that is better dealt with by appeasing than by standing up for what they believe? We do not want to be the kind of country that the world looks on with this view…[/quote]
Agreed. We will get nowhere fast in our relations with other nations if they hate us for being bullies. But…

Remember the tsunami? (This is the most recent international catastrophe I can think of at the moment)

Who did they call?

I don’t think that everybody hates us… maybe France… but fuck them, they suck. :slight_smile:

63

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

Iraq is still an enigma, or was, in foreign policy. If we were going to attack them for UN violations, we should have done it a hell of alot sooner than 2002.[/quote]

Of course we should have. Unfortunately, we had Clinton in the Whitehouse for most of the 90s.

Why not? I don’t give a rat’s ass why the rest of the world falls in line, as long as they fall in line. Bottom line, we are the last remaining super-power. If the rest of the world wants to get together and take us on, fine. We all know how that will turn out. If the rest of the world doesn’t want to sack up, they need to shut their whining.

There was a time when I feared the idea of President McCain. Now I think his kind of crazy is exactly what we need.

64

[quote]doogie wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

But I wonder sometimes, do other countries think about appeasing us? Do they look at us as the great invasion force, that is better dealt with by appeasing than by standing up for what they believe? We do not want to be the kind of country that the world looks on with this view…

Why not? I don’t give a rat’s ass why the rest of the world falls in line, as long as they fall in line. Bottom line, we are the last remaining super-power. If the rest of the world wants to get together and take us on, fine. We all know how that will turn out. If the rest of the world doesn’t want to sack up, they need to shut their whining.

[/quote]

ach, stop making a drama out of everything…

maybe some third world countries feel the need to appease the US and they have very good reasons to do so…

The rest, you know, Europe, China, India, we really have no reason to be afraid of the US. What are you going to do? Invade us?

Mwuahahahaha!

Trade sanctions? Bush tried that, snicker…

The reality is something like this: the US has an administration that feels the need to bomb the shit out of some third world country? Go ahead, but all of this “you are either with us or against us” BS, changing french to “freedom” fries and stupid things like that do not really impress anyone outside the US.

All we are going to do is wait for the next president, we are aware that there are term limits.

65

[quote]doogie wrote:

Why not? I don’t give a rat’s ass why the rest of the world falls in line, as long as they fall in line. Bottom line, we are the last remaining super-power. If the rest of the world wants to get together and take us on, fine. We all know how that will turn out. If the rest of the world doesn’t want to sack up, they need to shut their whining.

There was a time when I feared the idea of President McCain. Now I think his kind of crazy is exactly what we need.

[/quote]

Unless you’re willing to actually use military power against other highly developed countries, the fact that you’re the world’s only remaining superpower is kind of pointless and gives you very little leverage. Other countries won’t co-operate with a bully unless the bully is willing and capable of actually bullying them.

And I can promise you that no one in China, Russia, India or the EU is losing sleep fearing that the United States will attack them tomorrow. Hence US military might is rather useless when dealing with the other major players in international relations. You have to use “soft power” rather than “hard power” to make such players “fall in line” - and thinking of co-operation in terms of making others “fall in line” isn’t helping, because other people have “lines” too.

66

[quote]doogie wrote:
I don’t give a rat’s ass why the rest of the world falls in line, as long as they fall in line. Bottom line, we are the last remaining super-power. If the rest of the world wants to get together and take us on, fine. We all know how that will turn out. If the rest of the world doesn’t want to sack up, they need to shut their whining.
[/quote]

LOL You’re not supposed to just come out and say it! The whole entire world is not quite our prison bitch yet, so rein in that crap until the proper time. We’re still in the romance stage here… ya can’t just grab her by the back of the hair, slam her face in the pillows, and scream “WHO’S YER DADDY!!!” when it comes to foreign policy.

Keep the illusion alive for just a little longer, man… geez! :slight_smile:

67

[quote]orion wrote:
The rest, you know, Europe, China, India, we really have no reason to be afraid of the US. What are you going to do? Invade us?
[/quote]

Yes. Do you own a gun?

Buy some bullets bizzle, because when I steal the presidency, y’all are going to be my new “axis of evil”. France and Germany are making it almost too easy for me to target the EU as enemies. Just keep it up, fellas… keep stabbing us in the back. The OFF scandal, all those nuclear tests in French Polynesia resulting in the creation of a Godzilla… how much do you think it’s going to take until we say fuck it and start bombing Paris? It’s not like the French won’t surrender immediately anyway.

We’ll call it “Operation: French Tickler.” I’m going to hang the “Mission Accomplished” banner on the Eiffel Tower myself.

68

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
…
We’ll call it “Operation: French Tickler.” I’m going to hang the “Mission Accomplished” banner on the Eiffel Tower myself. [/quote]

The Eiffel Tower. We have those here too, we just take them down when the well runs out of oil.

69

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
mmg_4 wrote:
PS-Keep proving how intelligent you are with the drug comments, really shows a level of intellect ive never seen before

LOL Okay. As long as you keep going with the long-winded whiny posts about how I’m supposedly a fear monger or whatever!

Wipe your nose and think for a second.
Getting all emotional doesn’t make any point at all except that you are easy to provoke. Using phrases like “sending kids to die” isn’t going to help you. At all.

If we stole all this oil, then where is it? All I see around here (North Florida) is an oil shortage. We have an economic interest in the ME which is obviously tied to oil supply… so when we go over there for one reason or another, that doesn’t mean that we friggin’ steal it. We haven’t stolen a damn thing.

In fact, the last time I checked, we not only did NOT subjugate Iraq and crush it under a hob-nailed boot Nazi-Germany style, we gave the country back to the Iraqianian people to determine their own destiny, and removed a bloodthirsty and ruthless dictator who used his power over the electicity and water supply systems to hold his people hostage.

Which was the point of this thread. To celebrate the fact that our actions in the region are paying off in spades, and the American lives that were lost in combat and to IED’s weren’t in vain. Please cheer up. It’s okay.[/quote]

emotional?RIggghht, remember, your the one who called me a drug addict just because i asked a simple, obvious question that still has been ignored…its alright though, i would expect as much from someone who can ignore a rigged election and possibly the most chaotic five years under any presidents watch… the reasons for going to war have changed to conveniently fit the need as the years have gone by…First it was WMD, then it was saddam,then it was 9-11,just BS…all the while both patriot acts go through…we give “freedom” to iraqis, yet more and more of ours get taken away…believe whatever you want, bro, just dont end up shocked when things dont end up all rosy and grand in the end; and dont be so arrogant as to think that your fearless leader george w.thinks as highly of you as you do of him…

70

[quote]mmg_4 wrote:
storey420 wrote:
lothario1132 wrote:
mmg_4 wrote:
I mean, because theyre posing such a threat to us now, why the hell arent we dropping bombs on them…oh wait, N.korea might actually be able to fight back…oh, maybe that has something to do with it…that and they have no oil:(

Iran has plenty of oil, and we will be stealing it just like we stole all the Iraqi oil. WTF?? lothario[/quote]

See right here how after he makes a reference to N Korea not having oil as part of why we aren’t over there. Then you IMMEDIATELY respond by saying Iran has plenty of oil. This is what I was referring to.

I’m not on anyone’s side and I believe that while the oil thing is not the main reason why we do or do not commit to an operation, in the long run it is a factor. Otherwise we would have been all over the freedom thing in Africa with as much force, not the few special ops missions that we currently have.
You degrade yourself and your debating ability by calling me a crackhead or goofy. That would be the definition od ad hominem that someone was looking for in another debate.

71

Dude, use paragraphs.

The election was not “rigged.”

When you engage in this type of hyperbole, it tends to invalidate the rest of what you are trying to say.

72

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Dude, use paragraphs.

The election was not “rigged.”

When you engage in this type of hyperbole, it tends to invalidate the rest of what you are trying to say.[/quote]

tampered with, does that suit you better? didnt know certain words invalidated things, just trying to make a point, something certainly was wrong with the election, how’s that?

73

[quote]mmg_4 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Dude, use paragraphs.

The election was not “rigged.”

When you engage in this type of hyperbole, it tends to invalidate the rest of what you are trying to say.

tampered with, does that suit you better? didnt know certain words invalidated things, just trying to make a point, something certainly was wrong with the election, how’s that?[/quote]

The Supreme Court stepped in and stopped the tampering.

In case you forget, Gore was trying to throw out the overseas ballots and only have recounts done in targetting precincts.

The Supreme Court stepped in and said since you can’t recount them all don’t do anymore recounts.

The ballots were then recounted post-election and Bush got more votes.

The one trying to cheat was Gore.

It is no wonder that anyone that thinks Bush “stole” the election is also massively confused on other issues as well.

As to invalidating your statements, it is like telling me 2+2=5.

If you are that wrong about something so simple anything else you say cannot be believed either.

74

[quote]orion wrote:
doogie wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

But I wonder sometimes, do other countries think about appeasing us? Do they look at us as the great invasion force, that is better dealt with by appeasing than by standing up for what they believe? We do not want to be the kind of country that the world looks on with this view…

Why not? I don’t give a rat’s ass why the rest of the world falls in line, as long as they fall in line. Bottom line, we are the last remaining super-power. If the rest of the world wants to get together and take us on, fine. We all know how that will turn out. If the rest of the world doesn’t want to sack up, they need to shut their whining.

ach, stop making a drama out of everything…

maybe some third world countries feel the need to appease the US and they have very good reasons to do so…

The rest, you know, Europe, China, India, we really have no reason to be afraid of the US. What are you going to do? Invade us?

Mwuahahahaha!

Trade sanctions? Bush tried that, snicker…

The reality is something like this: the US has an administration that feels the need to bomb the shit out of some third world country? Go ahead, but all of this “you are either with us or against us” BS, changing french to “freedom” fries and stupid things like that do not really impress anyone outside the US.

All we are going to do is wait for the next president, we are aware that there are term limits. [/quote]

It amazes me how the quickly the rest of the world forgets how much the US gives to them. Europe would be a Nazi quagmire if not for the USA. And guess what, we came in and kicked ass and then we spent tons of money to rebuild those countries. And what is the response, just what you see above. Now the USA is not perfect, but the rest of the known world would be screwed without us. Like someone said above, when there is a disaster or some other major event in the world, who do these whiners call on. Why the good ole US of A. We are the world’s philanthropist and policeman. You can’t have it both ways and if we do the bailing out we call the shots. Americans should show some pride in there country and those who don’t like the way it is and think the Europeans or others do it better should just move themselves right on over to those countries and STFU.

75

[quote]rocksolid wrote:
It amazes me how the quickly the rest of the world forgets how much the US gives to them. Europe would be a Nazi quagmire if not for the USA. And guess what, we came in and kicked ass and then we spent tons of money to rebuild those countries. And what is the response, just what you see above. Now the USA is not perfect, but the rest of the known world would be screwed without us. Like someone said above, when there is a disaster or some other major event in the world, who do these whiners call on. Why the good ole US of A. We are the world’s philanthropist and policeman. You can’t have it both ways and if we do the bailing out we call the shots. Americans should show some pride in there country and those who don’t like the way it is and think the Europeans or others do it better should just move themselves right on over to those countries and STFU.[/quote]

All of this “we” talk really pisses me off sometimes when the reality is, very few americans in relation are actually willing to FIGHT for their country.

76

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
mmg_4 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Dude, use paragraphs.

The election was not “rigged.”

When you engage in this type of hyperbole, it tends to invalidate the rest of what you are trying to say.

tampered with, does that suit you better? didnt know certain words invalidated things, just trying to make a point, something certainly was wrong with the election, how’s that?

The Supreme Court stepped in and stopped the tampering.

In case you forget, Gore was trying to throw out the overseas ballots and only have recounts done in targetting precincts.

The Supreme Court stepped in and said since you can’t recount them all don’t do anymore recounts.

The ballots were then recounted post-election and Bush got more votes.

The one trying to cheat was Gore.

It is no wonder that anyone that thinks Bush “stole” the election is also massively confused on other issues as well.

As to invalidating your statements, it is like telling me 2+2=5.

If you are that wrong about something so simple anything else you say cannot be believed either.

[/quote]
Bottom Line is When americans are dying for this Nobody Wins,Georgies daddy should have solved the problem the first time and didnt.Out of the three Mccain ,Bush &Kerry its funny that the only guy that has balls enough as you say to start this war,was the only one of the three that didnt go to Viet Nam and fight and be a patriot when he had the chance.He got to stay home play pilot and take flying lessons at tax payers expense.

77

[quote]rocksolid wrote:

It amazes me how the quickly the rest of the world forgets how much the US gives to them. Europe would be a Nazi quagmire if not for the USA. And guess what, we came in and kicked ass and then we spent tons of money to rebuild those countries. And what is the response, just what you see above. Now the USA is not perfect, but the rest of the known world would be screwed without us. Like someone said above, when there is a disaster or some other major event in the world, who do these whiners call on. Why the good ole US of A. We are the world’s philanthropist and policeman. You can’t have it both ways and if we do the bailing out we call the shots. Americans should show some pride in there country and those who don’t like the way it is and think the Europeans or others do it better should just move themselves right on over to those countries and STFU.[/quote]

Well first of all, we have not forgotten, because Europe is much like America: there is no “we”.

Some have, some won?t, some will never accept that the US has “saved” anything in the first place, and so on…

However, thanks for saving our butts, we will thank you like a true friend; by telling you each and every time when we think you are wrong with a detailed description why we think you are wrong, how wrong exactly we think you are and we might even make fun of your president.

That may be tough love, but it is still love…

What do you want? Flowers every 4th of July? Mmmmm, that would probably add a nice touch.

78

[quote]orion wrote:
rocksolid wrote:

It amazes me how the quickly the rest of the world forgets how much the US gives to them. Europe would be a Nazi quagmire if not for the USA. And guess what, we came in and kicked ass and then we spent tons of money to rebuild those countries. And what is the response, just what you see above. Now the USA is not perfect, but the rest of the known world would be screwed without us. Like someone said above, when there is a disaster or some other major event in the world, who do these whiners call on. Why the good ole US of A. We are the world’s philanthropist and policeman. You can’t have it both ways and if we do the bailing out we call the shots. Americans should show some pride in there country and those who don’t like the way it is and think the Europeans or others do it better should just move themselves right on over to those countries and STFU.

Well first of all, we have not forgotten, because Europe is much like America: there is no “we”.

Some have, some won?t, some will never accept that the US has “saved” anything in the first place, and so on…

However, thanks for saving our butts, we will thank you like a true friend; by telling you each and every time when we think you are wrong with a detailed description why we think you are wrong, how wrong exactly we think you are and we might even make fun of your president.

That may be tough love, but it is still love…

What do you want? Flowers every 4th of July. Mmmmm, that would probably add a nice touch.

[/quote]Orion,What is the general opinion from europeans on our illustrious leader.do they think americans are idiots for voting in a guy like him? Let us know It would be very interesting.

79

[quote]ron33 wrote:

Orion,What is the general opinion from europeans on our illustrious leader.do they think americans are idiots for voting in a guy like him? Let us know It would be very interesting.

[/quote]

Did I post there is no “we” ? I?m sure some like him and think he is a great leader, I just haven?t met any lately.

80

[quote]doogie wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

Iraq is still an enigma, or was, in foreign policy. If we were going to attack them for UN violations, we should have done it a hell of alot sooner than 2002.

Of course we should have. Unfortunately, we had Clinton in the Whitehouse for most of the 90s.

But I wonder sometimes, do other countries think about appeasing us? Do they look at us as the great invasion force, that is better dealt with by appeasing than by standing up for what they believe? We do not want to be the kind of country that the world looks on with this view…

Why not? I don’t give a rat’s ass why the rest of the world falls in line, as long as they fall in line. Bottom line, we are the last remaining super-power. If the rest of the world wants to get together and take us on, fine. We all know how that will turn out. If the rest of the world doesn’t want to sack up, they need to shut their whining.

There was a time when I feared the idea of President McCain. Now I think his kind of crazy is exactly what we need.

[/quote]

You are not thinking here. We cannot make the rest of the world “fall in line”. And what does that say about us as a country that people even want to make others “fall in line”. What the fuck does “fall in line” mean? What the hell is wrong with you that you wish the US to dominate other countries? This isn’t a good thing…

Not to mention that you apparently don’t read history too much. If the world takes you on, you lose. All empires fall. The same thing was said about the Romans, about the Ottomans, the British, hell, anyone who imposes will on those that don’t want it. What made America somewhat special was that we didn’t want an empire. This is not true anymore. Like I said, at least the Brits could admit it.