We Need Another Christianity Thread

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

Look, Tiribulus, you’re no apologist or coward and I respect you for that. However,

the burden of proof lies with the one making incredible statements.

God is real, because:

  1. Jesus of Nazareth was his son (or God in human form).
  2. Jesus was born of a virgin, that proves it.
  3. Jesus walked on water, that proves it.
  4. Jesus resurrected the dead, and he himself was resurrected, that proves it.
  5. Insert unbelievable claim here…

Now I’ll state the obvious: none of this happened. And YOU my good man, have to prove that it did. Or provide some other proof that not only does god exist, YOUR version of god is true.

It’s not on me to play 20 questions or provide you with what I would accept as proof. Simply present it if you can, and wish to do so.

62

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:<<< I was raised on this stuff, >>>[/quote]That means precisely nothing. There was a girl here a while back who was raised on the mission field and didn’t have a child’s catechism’s worth of actual understanding of the actual gospel. [quote]Quick Ben wrote:<<< The OP is my honest perception of the christian god as portrayed in the bible. >>>[/quote]See what I mean? [quote]Quick Ben wrote:<<< You say that I’m misinformed >>>[/quote]No I don’t. I say you are dead in sin like you said before. Dead men know nothing of life which spiritually speaking is only available by a second birth into the death defeating resurrection of the Son of God. [quote]Quick Ben wrote:<<< as soon as you point to the infallible truth of the almighty I’ll run and screaming. >>>[/quote] I never said as soon as and I never mentioned screaming. When (if) we get there, you’ll know. [quote]Quick Ben wrote:<<< I know that whatever you are trying to convince me of will require me to put aside my sense of reason and fairness. >>>[/quote]Oh my dear friend. You’ve been living your whole life that way already. All I’m gonna do is prove that to you. [quote]Quick Ben wrote:<<< You will tell me my sense of anything doesn’t matter, only god matters. >>>[/quote] Hmmmm. This is a vast oversimplification and not stated the way I would, but not entirely false. [quote]Quick Ben wrote:<<< We’re here for his amusement… which is what I wrote in my OP. >>>[/quote]We’re here for His glory. And we will, we ARE delivering. Even you. At this very moment. He displays His flawless holiness, justice and judgement in His damnation of the lost and His unspeakable mercy, love and grace in His redeeming of His elect. All creation will praise His name for both.

Now, I’ll ask again, just like I also had to do with everybody else. Tell me what you know for sure and why. Please? Just one single postulation the certainty of which you consider unassailable. Don’t let Oleena down. She’ll probably be watchin to see how you answer this question. She tapped out almost immediately. Only Elder Forlife keeps swinging. It’s a real breezy swing, but he keeps at it nonetheless(when He’s here).

63

No postulation of certainty is unassailable. It’s a trite answer, but the only one I can give.

Your whole premise is flawed. What kind of creator is it that doesn’t blame himself or his tools for his shoddy work, but the thing he created? There is no mercy, love, grace, or free will under your system of belief. Only subjugation and glorification. How can such a creation as man be said to “deserve” anything? Your beliefs are an accident of birth, and so are mine. If we were both born in India, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

The only way to salvation, after all the time that man has existed, is to telepathically accept a jewish rabbi born 2000 year ago as your lord and saviour, right? And anyone who can’t bring themselves to believe that is royally fucked. Sorry.

Flawless holiness my ass.

64

The very amusing irony of all this is that you are trying to save me from your own god. lol

65

[quote]Raw Finn wrote:<<< Who the hell is Elder Forlife? >>>[/quote]He calls himself “Forlife”. I’vebeen affectionately calling him “Elder Forlife” for like a year because he was once a Mormon missionary and they call themselves Elder____last name for 2 years during their mission. [quote]Raw Finn wrote: So you are saying that God knows everything. >>>[/quote]Yes I am. [quote]Raw Finn wrote:<<< But you don’t want to answer to any of the questions I asked before in this thread?[/quote]I’m only one guy dude. Please bear with myself and Benjamin the Quick here for a minute. All your questions will be answered by my answers to him. You can feel free to tell me what you know for certain if you like though. But you’ve already said the answer is nothing. Just like Elder Forlife. Elder Forlife has some very VERY effective ways of utterly destroying traditional theistic argumentation. Of course he destroys his own in the process as well because they’re the same thing. Long story that we may actually get to if Benny will answer my question. Elder Forlife is probably my favorite pagan opponent of all time. I really love that guy. I really do. He’s another one I pray for.

You can find some of our discourse in the Freewill and Satan threads.

66

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:No postulation of certainty is unassailable. It’s a trite answer, but the only one I can give. >>>[/quote]Are you saying that you don’t know anything for sure?

67

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:No postulation of certainty is unassailable. It’s a trite answer, but the only one I can give. >>>[/quote]Are you saying that you don’t know anything for sure?
[/quote]

Not at all. Cogito ergo sum. I know I exist on some level. How much I can trust my senses is another issue altogether.

Fine, lets start there then. I exist, I know this.

68

I gotta say though, that if you are simply going to ignore the posts where I’m not taking the thread in the direction you want to, I’d prefer if you just bow out. It’s condescending the way you cherry pick quotes.

69

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:No postulation of certainty is unassailable. It’s a trite answer, but the only one I can give. >>>[/quote]Are you saying that you don’t know anything for sure?
[/quote]

Not at all. Cogito ergo sum. I know I exist on some level. How much I can trust my senses is another issue altogether.

Fine, lets start there then. I exist, I know this.[/quote]DesCarte. This was not what I was expecting. I salute you sir. This was a real curveball requiring a different path than What I had in mind. I can’t do it tonight. I have work in the morning and was about to crash anyway.

For now I’ll just say that “God is. Therefore I think”

70

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:No postulation of certainty is unassailable. It’s a trite answer, but the only one I can give. >>>[/quote]Are you saying that you don’t know anything for sure?
[/quote]

Not at all. Cogito ergo sum. I know I exist on some level. How much I can trust my senses is another issue altogether.

Fine, lets start there then. I exist, I know this.[/quote]DesCarte. This was not what I was expecting. I salute you sir. This was a real curveball requiring a different path than What I had in mind. I can’t do it tonight. I have work in the morning and was about to crash anyway.

For now I’ll just say that “God is. Therefore I think”
[/quote]

If God is, and I’m talking about your specific version now, then your ability to think is a curse. Your very existence an unjust punishment for a crime you did not commit.

If I was willing to grant it all, to admit that everything you “know” about Yahweh is true, you would STILL be stuck with he fact that you were born sick and commanded to be well. For no fucking reason I might add, than for the “glory” of God. Yes that’s a Christopher Hitchens line, don’t soil yourself.

71

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]pgtips wrote:

But I honestly think for humans to carry on developing (culturaly and psychologicaly) that religion does eventualy need to go…[/quote]

Because Tuesday just HAS to be better than Monday. It comes after Monday, after all.

[quote] For all of religions good aspects, it is grealy overshadowed by the attrocieties it can cause and by its canny little nack of dividing whole groups of people.
[/quote]

/Reads this part…Reads the sentence above…Now the sentence below…chuckles.
[/quote]

If Garfield has taught me anything, it’s that Mondays are just the worst.

72

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I haven’t attempted to say anything yet.[/quote]

Yes you have, you just fail really badly at it so now you’re backpedaling.

73

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
My own country is almost 100% atheist, and it is exceedingly successful and peaceful. We have something like 2% church attendance. Say no to churches and their religious bullying, which more often than not comes under the guise of a helping hand. [/quote]

This is a good point. Conversion by bread is more effective than conversion by sword.

Look, even now, how the “generous” religious hate to be taxed, but will give money to Christian charities - this way, you have the needy given reason to make good associations with the religion, and the believers can say “Look at how great the Catholic Church is… they help so many people! Isn’t religion great?”[/quote]

heh - so just to be sure

You’re saying that it is better that the “generous” government usurp that money and give it to others - this way, you have the needy given reason to make good associations with that government, and the believers can say “Look at how great the government is… they help so many people! Isn’t the government great?”

74

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
It’s condescending the way you cherry pick quotes.[/quote]

And? If you want to start off condescending from your very first post, don’t cry later at the slightest (in this case, imagined) injuries to your sensitive nature. You’re a poo-flinging troll. Your first post is a compacted, compressed, distilled, caricature. One you had the audacity to call the Christian-point-of-view. A man looking for anything but an uncivil argument would’ve simply said it was his own, and then asked us our thoughts. And yes, I knew it was your own. It was your condescending projection of your own view as being the ‘Christian-point-of-view,’ which I ridiculed.

You’re about as focused as projectile vomiting. So, someone bites, appearing ready to start unpacking the steaming heap of your post. Willing apparently to start from the very beginning with you. Willing to demonstrate that you already act/‘know’ on faith…and you cry because he can’t instantaneously deal with YOUR point of view at once, with other responses and ‘questions’ spewing out of you, even as he tries to start from the only logical starting point (you act and live on faith). And, you want to get all weepy about someone being condescending? Ha!

75

[quote]Raw Finn wrote:
I have questions for Christians.

Why have you chosen Christianity? There a dozens of religions in the world. Have you studied them all to know which is the best one?[/quote]

It doesn’t work like that. Comparing them to find “the best one”

[quote]
Or have you chosen this one because it is the biggest one? Because many people believe in it? Because it has affected our culture the most?[/quote]

It doesn’t work like that either. Not from anyone who’s gonna respond anyway

[quote]
How did you come to the conclusion that there would be one God and not many gods? Does it have to be God or could it be something else?[/quote]

?

You mean a creator? How does someone conclude that there was only one creator?

You’re also asking if that creator has to be a traditional monotheistic God, or if it could be something else? Like, aliens?

[quote]
Do you believe because you think it is a logical thing to do because a God is a good explanation to the origin of the world? Though that doesn’t explain how God came to be or why it would have to be a Christian God.[/quote]

No that is not why, although it is a pretty decent answer if you expand it to ‘universe’ instead of ‘world’. No it does not explain those things.

[quote]
It’s been said that there was no time before the Big Bang so that would kind of explain how God came to be. But you don’t believe in the Big Bang, do you?[/quote]

I don’t understand your first sentence here. No offense, but I think I still understand your sentence better than you do… what does “no time” have anything to do with explaining how God came to be? Matter of fact, this part could turn really long - lets skip that - if a God exists he very well could exist in more dimensions than we do. He doesn’t necessarily need time in order to exist.

I don’t believe in the Big Bang in the religious sense of the word. It appears to me that some atheists do. It doesn’t interfere with my beliefs at all, there are some that say it was the moment that God created the universe. I usually just keep my mouth shut and my ears open on all that though

[quote]
I admit that I don’t know shit. No one can know anything about anything really. This is why I find it hard to understand why people would believe stuff. There is just as much logic in believing in unicorns as there is in believing in a god.[/quote]

No, your pushing it. Why do you push it?

Look - you know language. You know how to ask questions, and construct arguments, and at least basic logic. No, I am not constructing the basic argument that because you know these things, that a god gave it to you. I am arguing that you are pushing it, and asking why

[quote]
For all I know, unicorns created the world. Some bars of gold for this, please, pushharder.[/quote]

At least give the unicorns some magical, god-like powers. Regular old unicorns would just choke in outer space

(you see what I did there?)

76

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
It’s condescending the way you cherry pick quotes.[/quote]

And? If you want to start off condescending from your very first post, don’t cry later at the slightest (in this case, imagined) injuries to your sensitive nature. You’re a poo-flinging troll. Your first post is a compacted, compressed, distilled, caricature. One you had the audacity to call the Christian-point-of-view. A man looking for anything but an uncivil argument would’ve simply said it was his own, and then asked us our thoughts. And yes, I knew it was your own. It was your condescending projection of your own view as being the ‘Christian-point-of-view,’ which I ridiculed.

You’re about as focused as projectile vomiting. So, someone bites, appearing ready to start unpacking the steaming heap of your post. Willing apparently to start from the very beginning with you. Willing to demonstrate that you already act/‘know’ on faith…and you cry because he can’t instantaneously deal with YOUR point of view at once, with other responses and ‘questions’ spewing out of you, even as he tries to start from the only logical starting point (you act and live on faith). And, you want to get all weepy about someone being condescending? Ha!

[/quote]

Now look at this Trib, here is a fellow that’s willing to respond to the posts as written. You could learn a thing a two from him.

77

[quote]squating_bear wrote:

[quote]Raw Finn wrote:
I have questions for Christians.

Why have you chosen Christianity? There a dozens of religions in the world. Have you studied them all to know which is the best one?[/quote]

It doesn’t work like that. Comparing them to find “the best one”

[quote]
Or have you chosen this one because it is the biggest one? Because many people believe in it? Because it has affected our culture the most?[/quote]

It doesn’t work like that either. Not from anyone who’s gonna respond anyway

[quote]
How did you come to the conclusion that there would be one God and not many gods? Does it have to be God or could it be something else?[/quote]

?

You mean a creator? How does someone conclude that there was only one creator?

You’re also asking if that creator has to be a traditional monotheistic God, or if it could be something else? Like, aliens?

[quote]
Do you believe because you think it is a logical thing to do because a God is a good explanation to the origin of the world? Though that doesn’t explain how God came to be or why it would have to be a Christian God.[/quote]

No that is not why, although it is a pretty decent answer if you expand it to ‘universe’ instead of ‘world’. No it does not explain those things.

[quote]
It’s been said that there was no time before the Big Bang so that would kind of explain how God came to be. But you don’t believe in the Big Bang, do you?[/quote]

I don’t understand your first sentence here. No offense, but I think I still understand your sentence better than you do… what does “no time” have anything to do with explaining how God came to be? Matter of fact, this part could turn really long - lets skip that - if a God exists he very well could exist in more dimensions than we do. He doesn’t necessarily need time in order to exist.

I don’t believe in the Big Bang in the religious sense of the word. It appears to me that some atheists do. It doesn’t interfere with my beliefs at all, there are some that say it was the moment that God created the universe. I usually just keep my mouth shut and my ears open on all that though

[quote]
I admit that I don’t know shit. No one can know anything about anything really. This is why I find it hard to understand why people would believe stuff. There is just as much logic in believing in unicorns as there is in believing in a god.[/quote]

No, your pushing it. Why do you push it?

Look - you know language. You know how to ask questions, and construct arguments, and at least basic logic. No, I am not constructing the basic argument that because you know these things, that a god gave it to you. I am arguing that you are pushing it, and asking why

[quote]
For all I know, unicorns created the world. Some bars of gold for this, please, pushharder.[/quote]

At least give the unicorns some magical, god-like powers. Regular old unicorns would just choke in outer space

(you see what I did there?)[/quote]

-How does it work?

-How does it work?

-Yes, yes and yes.

-Then why?

-So you are saying that time is something that cannot be fully explained or understood? That would make sense. You said “if a God exists”. Are you doubting or why did you use the word “if”? Believing in things is always an opinion, if you ask me. What I don’t get is people claiming their beliefs as facts. Though, I guess it is because their faith wouldn’t be true if they didn’t “know” their belief to be a fact. Am I right?

-Do you mean you find it offensive that I compare a God to unicorns? You ask why I am “pushing it”. Well, to point out it is illogical to claim beliefs to be facts.

-I can imagine them to be all-powerful creatures, yes. I could also say that they don’t really exist in any dimension, reality or time but, on the other hand, the opposite is true and it is just something we cannot comprehend.

Oh, the regular oldies. They are often described in a romantic way - or as cute in fairy tales. But maybe these unicorns are just pretending to be non-all-powerful. In the end, how can one know because they are all-powerful after all - or are they?

78

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:No postulation of certainty is unassailable. It’s a trite answer, but the only one I can give. >>>[/quote]Are you saying that you don’t know anything for sure?
[/quote]

Not at all. Cogito ergo sum. I know I exist on some level. How much I can trust my senses is another issue altogether.

Fine, lets start there then. I exist, I know this.[/quote]
You believe you exist because you have the possible illusion / hallucination of thinking. Read: possible.

How could Descartes prove that WE ARE on the basis that we SEEM to think? I disagree with the guy. Where’s the logical certainty?

79

“I know one thing, that I know nothing.”
-Socrates

80

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
Christian point of view : God was bored and needed a set of doormats/housepets that he could use from time to time as a punching bag, so he created Man, but He gave him free will so he would transgress and could then be punished! And transgress he did…so He cast man aside so He could gleefully watch him suffer for his disobedience – and yea suffer man did, but he didnt do quite as badly as God expected him to, and as years went by, Man evolved, and he actually had a LOT of fun creating obstacles for himself and then overcoming them, and worse, man forgot that he was being punished ---- and WORST OF ALL, man all but forgot that he was initially created by a bored God to worship Him!

So He decided to remind Man that - he, as in, man had a superior being who was watching him, and that Man was being punished and that he better make it look like he’s suffering, AND that the only way out of his punishment (should he eventually realize that he was being punished) was to accept His Son as the messiah, etc. Well “some” took it to heart and as for the others, they carried on like nothing ever happened.

So the “believers” combined their forces and waged war on the “unbelievers” and massacred many of them so that they could save their heathen souls from the horrible punishment of life on earth followed by afterlife in the eternal pit of fire ---- and the list of “believers” grew… and the story rolls on!

[/quote]

huh? Can you drill down on what the fuck you are talking about? Or are you bitter and just feel like ranting?