RESTLESS: More later, but for now, have you considered how hypocrit people really are?
Example: They say they are all against companies that exploit child labor and use sweat shops. Did that stop Nike from having 10 billion in sales last year? No. Better yet, I am sure a Jaggi Singh clone somewhere is actually wearing them. Strong integrity here.
Say one thing, act another way. Do as I say, not as I do. Clap! Clap! Clap! Now these are the people to be pissed on, specially when caught doing it. Don`t have to have wartime scenarios. You could pass your life (and a few kidneys) doing it and never lack candidates.
People, large scale, say one thing and act incoherently and inconsistently.
I have seen so much hypocrisy so far that I actually come to expect it very much like a currency: use it when it suits you. (However you hide it, you still use it in the end.) The exception, I admire, but it still remains an exception.
LARRYALAVENDER: Pity, break or not, Restless did serve one purpose in my view. He cemented my belief that there are at least two kinds of people in this world who will always argue and are impervious to the other side`s arguments (because the premises are so separated that middle ground is near impossible once you stockpile all the other clusters of connected beliefs).
Come to think of it, all those that say fuck you early to those of the absolute opposite clan are probably more intelligent (in the economy of time sense) by acting so. They save their time and energy for other activities where they have a real chance of changing something.
"RESTLESS: More later, but for now, have you considered how hypocrit people really are?
People, large scale, say one thing and act incoherently and inconsistently."
Americans more than most others. They criticize terrorism and practice it themselves. They criticize WMD’s and are loaded with them and use them on military and civilian targets. They criticize Islamic fundamentalists that they trained and supported for many years, they claim to be a part of the solution when they refuse to do something about their role in polutent gas production. You produce 25% of it by the way.
You are one of the most hypocrit nation there is.
“I have seen so much hypocrisy so far that I actually come to expect it very much like a currency: use it when it suits you.”
Well, taking into consideration the country you live in it doesn’t surprise me. If it bothers you should move.
RESTLESS: Once again, you`re posting targets I did not have in mind.
Did I mention one specific country? Nope. Did I mention one specific type of nationality? Neither.
Sure, Nike is an american company. But I doubt, like McDonalds, that is does all of its revenue on home ground. I could have used any other worldwide company. Nike is just an example of a product that is within average Joe`s budget, and that average Joes of all nations are guilty of it.
As for your moving solution, I find it downright irrelevant. Human nature is human nature, whether you go to Botswana, New York or anywhere else. That I change locations won`t change a thing.
Start looking at the world as a global Ecology (economy too). Tag US businesses hypocritical or not, they do what they do for the same reasons that any business does: theres demand for it. Shit on the US all you want, most people on this planet need the American products. Dont blame the USA for being itself. If you have a beef against what the US sells, blame ALL of their clients. No big business can run big time long time if there are no clients.
Choose the right target: Human nature. Not just one Nation.
Liberals are great at throwing sound bites but they never go any deeper into the reasoning behind thier rhetoric. For instance Restless said: ?[Americans] criticize Islamic fundamentalists that they trained and supported for many years?
The reason we supported Islamic fundamentalists (those in Afghanistan) was because they were on our side against the Communists. Islamic fundamentalists are bad but the Communists were worse. The Communist Doctrine sought world domination/revolution as its goal. So, the big bad commies had nuclear weapons and bad intentions. If saving the world from communist aggression required getting in bed with Islamic fundamentalists, well then so be it.
We became friends with Saddam in the 1980?s because we needed him as a hedge against the Iranian revolution. These guys were very scary ? as radical as Bin Laden way back in the late 1970s. Saddam went to war with the Iranians and slowly started getting his ass handed to him. It looked like the Iranians could sweep through the Middle East. We (the good guys) were not going to let that happen. There is no way that the western world was going to let the worlds oil region fall into the hands of those nuts. So, we could either send in US troops to help or send in some nasty stuff (chemical weapons) for Saddam to use on his own. Americans would not support sending in troops this soon after Vietnam. The chemical weapons thing turned out to bite us in the ass, oh well what would you have done?
Restless also said: [Americans] refuse to do something about their role in pollutant gas production. We produce 25% of it by the way.
Yes we do. We use more petrol products per person than anyone else. And guess what, we are not the continent with the huge brown pollution cloud hanging over us. Satellite photos show a huge brown cloud over parts of India and China that is the result of gas burning engines. Sounds like they are the ones who need to do something about pollution. (Somehow this will become Americas fault, I know.)
One thing straight… protesters and people against the war are just as the bad as the people were fighting, cowards and hypocrites. Who cares about the WMD or the polotics. When you go to war or train for it the last thing you think about is the WMD or anything, all you want to do is complete is kick ass and complete the objective ( mission accomplishment ) and making sure that everyone in your squad survives (troop welfare). Why I am trying to “stick my” chest out and talk about it is 1. I am an American ( which means i have all the rights as an " American" to get rid of these 3rd world punks that hold all these people in terror ) and 2. I am a United states Marine and i have served, and quite frankly if your willing to put your life on the line you have every right to gripe because…you served… Do any of you anti-war anti americans have any fortitude to serve ??? if not than quit you bitching cause, your on amercian soil…or have you forgotten.
"Yes we do. We use more petrol products per person than anyone else. And guess what, we are not the continent with the huge brown pollution cloud hanging over us. Satellite photos show a huge brown cloud over parts of India and China that is the result of gas burning engines. Sounds like they are the ones who need to do something about pollution. "
When you can’t justify your position just point out others mistakes and save your ass with a childish diversion maneuvre. Yes India and China are every bit as bad as you and if this was an Indian Based forum I would be bringing this to their attention.
Those poor near slave children working in those tough conditions sure tug at your heart strings don’t they?
I wonder what they’d eat and where they’d sleep if the imperialists didn’t set up shop in their country and pay them for their labor? Look at Japan, the first source of cheap offshore labor now. Then look at Korea, which is where manufacturing went when the Japanese got successful…and then Indonesia which is where the evil capitalist pigs invested next. Are they all better off than before the investment and jobs improved their economy, infrastructure, and way of life? I think so.
Damn, it sure sucks to be taken advantage of like that.
Those evil capitalist pigs actually are trading our higher standard of living away to those other countries. All the jobs they create in places like Pakistan removes better paying jobs in the US. I’d rather my neighbor kept his job than see those poor Pakistani’s way of life altered. I’m sure they’d prefer to live in traditional poverty too. Too bad neither they nor I are in charge of how large corporations do business.
China and India are not just as bad, they are much worse than the USA as far as pollution is concerned. They have no gas mileage standards for their vehicles. In addition, they allow vehicles to operate on their highways with 2-cycle engines. Those are terrible polluters.
I actually would like to see alternative fuel sources come into fruition. I can?t wait until we can pull our asses out of the Middle East. When we do, the Middle East will likely go to shit and some country or another will hold the world hostage with outrageous oil prices. What will you put in your car then? Oh, I know, you can buy some of the cars that will run on alternative fuel sources. Guess who will produce them. The US will be the ones leading the way there too. Of course the Japanese will produce them better and cheaper but that?s ok. I love free trade.
Where are you from Restless? Seems to me you have a bad case of national self esteem. That?s the real reason people dislike the US. I?m guessing you are from Europe or Canada. Don?t you think you should be thanking the US, I mean we did save the world twice in one century (WWII and the Cold War). Also we have provided most of the technological innovations over the last 50 years that have raised the standard of living around the world. I think you should be thanking us.
I have one other question. You mentioned the fact that the US terrorizes people and that we torture people. I?m quite sure that we don?t. Can you provide some info to back this up?
"So steeleyes, to you exploitation of cheap labor in underdeveloped countries is a favour we do to them? "
What do you consider providing a job in a place where there was none before to be?
Exploitation is a loaded word. Do you think your employer (assuming you have one) is exploiting you by making a profit from your labor even though you receive a fair wage? I don’t.
Those “exploited” workers don’t have to work in those conditions if they don’t want to. They can still do whatever it was they did before the shoe factory or other place was built…even if if was planting a garden with a sharp stick…if they so choose.
I just met one of those exploitive capitalists last week. He’s a Canadian that moved to Zimbabwe and owns a coffee farm. He supplies housing for his employees, his has a little store where they can buy staples instead of walking to town, and he pays fair wages for the area. The people that work for him are far better off than the unemployed people down the road that are living on plots of state land and subsistance farming. He treats his people fairly and they are happy. In a country with that much political instability, much of it directed at white farmers, he manages to live well and in harmony with the people he deals with.
Remember, Zimbabwe is where white farmers in some places are having their commerical farms taken and given to the locals, who promptly run them into the ground. There is widespread famine because of this. Which is worse, white guys farming food successfully and the locals having a job and food, or the locals starving themselves through their ignorance? I’ll take that “exploitation” over starvation thanks.
STEELYEYES: Your post reminds me what an American friend once told me. Here`s his stance on the global economy:
"Yes, they all want to be like us in the States. But that global economy is shit. They export the work to other 2 cents countries, bring the products back in the USA, and don`t give the profits back to anybody except the executives. Final effect: we are stuck at our current standards of living levels when these poor slobs actually heighten theirs…and we finance it.
My message to GM: You want to pay cheap labor to make your cars in Mexico? Fine. Sell them there. End of story."
I have never known how much representative of the US population his statements were, however.
When Boeing or GE or GM starts subcontracting work out of the country it’s a short term gain in profit but they lose in the long term. The Pakistanis that are making airplane seats will never be able to afford to fly in those seats…the people whose jobs they replaced could have. So eventually less people fly, less planes are sold, and profits go out the window.
Henry Ford knew that very well. He pissed off a lot of capitalists when he raised the pay of his workers to $5 a day. He knew if he didn’t he wouldn’t sell many cars.
Restless reminds me of a teenaged slackster who lives off his parents and derides their materialism, sneering at them for their non-enlightened way of life, and for not giving him money whenever he wants it. I don’t remember the exact quote off the top of my head, but Heinlein said something like this: “Only a fool or a poltroon lives off the benefits of his society while complaining about it.” Today, thanks to the advances of modern society, we live longer, are more likely to survive childhood, and we have a higher standard of living than anyone before us. All of these things are mostly down to the “imperialist, capitalistic system” Restless is raving about. He reminds me of Fredrich Engels. Old Fred, Karl Marx’s buddy, was one of the founders of the communist system. He would raise his glass each night to toast the proletariat that he had been oppressing all day as a factory owner.
Yes, I should have realized that the photo was faked, but I was a bit upset, considering that a buddy of mine had his convoy attacked by a command mine. Only his flak jacket saved him. Wouldn’t suprise me at all if our resident peace lover Restless thinks he should be dead now. The guy isn’t an infantryman, he’s in civil affairs. Been to Bosnia several times helping to rebuild that country, but he’s still a soldier, so according to Restless, he ought to die. And who’s the hypocrite? One last thing: if you’re going to come on here and accuse us of low intellectual ability, at least learn how to spell first.
"China and India are not just as bad, they are much worse than the USA as far as pollution is concerned. They have no gas mileage standards for their vehicles. In addition, they allow vehicles to operate on their highways with 2-cycle engines. Those are terrible polluters. "
You are wrong. The amount of cars in India is much less significant and their pollution/population ratio is much smaller. I know you people can’t stand the facts but you do produce 25% of the emissions of pollutent gas. INstead of denying it and acting once again like if you are beyond criticism start doing something about it.