ThaRealest, dont you worry boy. You're dead-on the fact our troops have a disproportionate number of minorities.
Which is why a bill is being proposed to reinstate the Draft - You're not scared of being called upon to serve your country when your name is picked are you?
Lucky you, the Senators dont believe the bill will pass. Why? Simply because we have such a great number of brave young people who VOLUNTEER to protect your freedom.
You'll recognize them. They're the ones wearing the tan and green fatigues in the middle of Iraq.
You should also notice that these are the same soldiers that are PROUD to say they fight for the U.S. They're Marines, Air force soldiers, Navy SEALS, Navy Seabees, G.I.'s, Mechanics, Rangers, Paratroopers, Combat specialists, Special ops paramedics, National guard, MP's, Coast guard, Marine Recon, Green Berets, S.O.W.'s, Pilots, Paramedics, Sailors, Radar specialists, Air traffic controllers, Sea Lions, Delta Force, 160th special operations, 101st airborne, 180th troops, and many, many, many more.
You know why they're all in? Because they have balls and they know it. They know they dont have the money Bill Gates has - many dont even have enough to afford rent and go through college.
They're there because they're not your frat boy type. They're not your party girls. They're not spoiled, and they dont whine about their inability to have or do things other might be able to.
They're the badass types - the ones whose satisfaction in life comes from one of a few things - being a soldier.
I am in national guard so I can speak ane this “war” is BS. Some little shit whose daddy and oil buddies got his ass in there ILLEGALLY are after the oil. PERIOD!!! USA lives are being wasted so Haliburton can make billions. Anyone who is stupid enuff to believe that Iraq poses a legitimate threat to our safety needs the shit slapped out of him. If you feel different put your nuts where your mouth is and go sign up ya pussy! Yea, that’s what I thought ya nutless punk.
ThaRealist, May be this will prove what knda man i am. I was wrong. Your only mistake was having a screen name that when scanning quickly over the post looks a whole lot like Restless. While i still dont agree with your opinion its still your opinion. Your now off of tampon tucker status.
But RESTLESS,The reason no one makes a good arguement is because they know it would be pointless. Why? becuase it is apparent that No matter what anyone says to you, in your tiny “darwin musta been wrong” brain, You’ve been so indoctrinated your whole life with that nazi, commie loving pinko tampon tucking zealot lets blame our problems on someone else because our whole country is full of limp dicks bullshit, that you wont even consider our point of view. You think were wrong period. So you go on thinking that.
You and your country sucks, Go back to smokin that pole your holdin onto with your mouth hangin open thinkin about what kinda nazi propaganda your going to spout to us next. You and yours have a wonderfull evening.
Oh yea, I am an E-4 helo fueler, I was in a frat…so was Dick Marcinko.
I just have to ask Realest one question “why are you not living w/ the people in Iraq right now?” You could be a “human shield” for them. If you really truely are oppose to this war.
ThaRealest, while minorities may be over represented in the military in general, they are under represented in combat forces.
“ThaRealest” I bet:
You’ve never been shot - I have.
You’ve never had people try to kill you - I have.
You’ve never had to work with the French - I have.
You’ve never seen people starving in front of you - I have.
You’ve never seen people who were thrilled beyond belief to make less than $2/day - I have. And for your information those people would give just about anything to have the opportunity to become citizens of the U.S.A. – even if they had to fight for it.
You seem to have a start on some good book learning, but if you want to be a complete scholar you need to get out in the real world and see some real stuff. Start by going on a ride along with a cop. If you experience some of the stuff BFA has seen – it will change your view of the world. Then travel to some third world countries, travel to Europe, check out Afghanistan. And don’t believe everything you read. Check out history books of the American Revolution that were written in different times. See how history has been re-written over time.
One last thing. Everyone was a minority at one time on this continent, my ancestors, your ancestors - and every minority has had to pay their dues.
Only the strong survive.
Restless, I’m sure our military has pulled whatever sad assed country you come from out of the fire, sometimes in the last century? How much less does your coutry have to spend on defense because we provide protection for you. You keep on believing Iraqs propaganda while our people fight to keep your country free. See any Americans Killing POW’s? Why don’t you hide while we take care of this, fucking whiner.
WELL, forgive me Squat - I was wrong.
There ARE gutless boys in the Military. I was obviously blind.
Good thing you're only in the National Guard.
Dont be too proud of being a Refueler.
And boy, I AM enlisting in the Marines.
Maybe youll want to grow some balls and join the rest of us Men who are not afraid of putting ourselves in the front lines?
You, of all, should know better. You should know enough to support our troops and our nation in war once it's started. Don't use the oil argument. Haliburton gave the best deal among several companies contacted by the government.
You should know of the huge quantities of chemical weapons unaccounted for in Iraq. You should have seen the pictures of the many Kurdish people, many children and women, lying dead and stiff with their eyes popping out on the streets after being cruelly attacked with chem and bio weapons.
You should know that Saddam was Incredibly close to having a fully developed Nuclear Weapon.
You should be able to take a look at the suicide bombings killing our Marines, and the words of the Iraqi officials saying those will be normal military procedure onwards.
You should have seen the pictures of the normal Iraqi citizens fleeing Baghdad and offered food to our Marines as show of gratitude and appreciation and said 'we love americans', and wanted to move to california; when asked why, these Iraqis responded 'because of the song 'hotel california', and left singing that song. I wont speak for you, but to me that validates this war and just seeing the good we're doing to these people would simply make me want to go stronger.
You mightve seen on TV a few Iraqis, about 25 yrs old - one of them with tears in his eyes saying 'I've been waiting for this day 25 years. That's a quarter of a century old, and every day I've been praying for the day we'd be free'. You would have also seen the girl mentioning 'every single day we lived in fear. In Iraq you dont need a reason to be arrested or be killed. Just a look in the wrong direction is all it takes.'
Maybe its worth noting those responsible for carrying out the attacks on 9/11, the ones on the planes, met in Iraq immediately before moving to the US 1 year prior.
Note the fact that both France and Russia have reasons to oppose war on Iraq simply because of: France's deals with Iraq which provides them with oil. Russia's deals with Iraq which, after purchasing 2.5 billion dollars worth of military equipment, has still to pay them back. Needless to say neither of them has anything to win from this war, and much to lose.
For a National Guard, you dont have much will, determination or courage. Then again I wouldnt expect much of those qualities from someone who's underwent lighter training than a Marine; and someone who's a refueler, and is not a Front Line Soldier. Please note we had both Marine and National Guard M.P.'s guarding our airports post 9/11. I made good friends with the NG M.P.'s and wish them nothing but the very best, especially since they've been activated to Iraq. But I don't need to tell you where people's respect was when a few of your comrades fell asleep at Bradley international airport while on duty. Ill finish by saying the Marines, from day 1 were incredibly sharpo and motivated to do what National guard considered to be a very boring job.
You signed up voluntarily. How long did you think your decision through? 1 week? 2 weeks?
Why did you join? For free state college? For free money? A skill? Those are nice benefits, but they mean nothing to you when you're on the front lines getting shot at, with barely enough to eat. You should know that before you signed up. Im afraid you fell to the same illusion as many do.
The real soldiers sign up for one reason - they want to fight oppression, and safeguard our freedom and our country. All else is secondary. They know once a bullet goes through your head, no one could give a squat about wether they got college money or a skill. They're trained to survive, but are prepared to die. I dont think you fit the bill buddy.
I pitty you if you were ever called to war. I honestly hope you're not, for your own safety. As Helo refueler though, chances are you'll probably be pretty safe from getting killed in action, and have nothing to whine about.
And for your info, being a helo refueler doesnt give you special authority.
I would also congratulate you on your status as an E4, but everyone should know the Army, National Guard, and Navy Reserve start everyone at a more advanced status - mainly E2, and E3 right after you join. How long did it take you to get to E4 boy?
I was offered as E4 status simply because I have experience working at an airport, refueling airline aircraft, with no prior military experience. Does that make me special? Would YOU give me special authority on my first day of duty? I doubt it. Brains dont grow overnight and credibility does not precede experience.
Ill put my trust in an E1 Marine over an E5 National guard any day.
Again, I wish nothing but the very best to all National guards. One bad apple does not Justify generalizations, just as a bad canadian does not justify generalizations either. I apologize in advance for any offense NG's might take to this post.
Been gone for a while, so couldn’t respond.
So we have made mistakes in the past. Does this give Sadam Hussein a free pass to commit genocide? When we make mistakes we are supposed to correct them. Not just let them fester into another Hitler trying to take over the world.
As far as France helping us become a country, this is not the same country. Remember the French revolution? And things change. We started out at war with Great Brittan, but now we are allies.
If we are the only country condemned by the international court of justice, then they are a bunch of biased idiots. The USA is hated by much of the rest of the world. Not because of what we do, but because we are the big kids on the block. This hate is nothing but envy. We are in no way perfect, but I cannot find another country barely as good as America. If that was not true, we wouldn’t want people from all over the world trying to come here.
This is not a war for oil. If we wanted the oil, we would have taken it 12 years ago. If we just wanted cheep oil, we would have not had any sanctions against Iraq. The increased supply of oil would have kept oil prices down.
This country is so powerful at this point that if we wanted to take over the world, I think we could. But we don’t. We don’t have to deal with the UN, but we do. This is because we want to work with the entire world to improve it. At times those in power have chosen to accept an evil to get rid of an even worse evil. And at times it has worked against us. But usually it works for the better. Whether we like it or not.
I am not going to go over history, trying to defend the past. This is just changing the subject. Any past action by any other person or country does not give a pass to current genocide. And one of the benefits of the American way is a constant improvement in ourselves, and the world.
This war would have been over in a day if we had dropped a single nuke on Baghdad. Yet because we care about the Iraqi people, we are taking a slower more careful approach to this war. So careful that some are calling us foolish.
One more thing, be careful of believing the propaganda coming out of Iraq. They said they didn’t have Scudds, but we shot down at least two. They said they would not burn the oil wells. We stopped hundreds if not thousands of wells going up. (Who does not care about the environment?) And have you seen how we are treating our prisoners compared to them? After the first Gulf war, some of the captured Iraqi military defected to America. Recently it was reported that some are released, and are giving up again a few days later just because we are feeding them better then they have eaten in years.
It astounds me that anyone would defend such an evil man. Or such an evil regime. Don’t forget that he had all the leaders of the mosks killed and replaced by his people when he took over.
The only reason France, Germany, and Russia are supporting Iraq is because they have very lucrative contracts with Saddam’s regime, and the next government might not recognize those contracts.
Of course I want peace, but I am intelligent enough to know that sometimes war is the only road to peace. Thousands upon thousands of children in Iraq are dying faster then our military is killing Iraqi solders due to malnutrition. Even though Saddam is supposed to be using his oil sales to buy food. And yet he is sneaking around and buying up weapons and dangerous chemicals.
And I won’t touch that statement about Zionists.
For years the US and a lot of Europeans are totally fed up with the arab leaders, after 9/11 this feeling grew stronger and stronger. The Bush admin. have already stretched out that the killing of Saddam Hussain is the start of a cleanup in the Middle East. Personally I like this approach very much, for the arabic leaders are nothing but a untruthfull , tyranisque and corrupt assholes. So nuke them while we can. Because if we don’t, the arabs will conquer us!
When Hitler attacked SU in 1941 the horrible regime of Stalin did not collapse and they were no major uprising by his opressed people. The willingness to fight against invader was bigger than to get rid of dictator. So don’t be suprised that there is no major uprisings. Iraqis are choosing between two evils and many of them thinks that Bush is more evil than Saddam. Many of them are fighting for pride and honor of arab nation as whole, not for Saddam. Another important point is that, there is great mistrust among Shias that americans will betray them again like they did after first gulf war. They have learned their lessons from history.
Personally, I think that this " Bombing to democracy"-doctrine of the Bush Regime simply cannot be succesful. There simply is to many factors that can go wrong. I think that military victory is inevitable. It may take up to few years if we assume that George and his boys are not going to nuke Baghdad. However, the post Saddam military occupation of Iraq may raise the levels of the anti-american sentiment among arab people to new extreme levels, or not. That can not be god in terms of the war against terrorism.
BFA: hey if that’s just your sense of humor than so be it. But understand that there are a number of people in this country that actually to believe all Arabs and/or muslims are evil, as evidenced by the number of hate crimes against them in this country. Knowing nothing else about you, I go only by what I see you write here.
I don’t know why we’re trading horror stories or what it has to do with this situation, but here goes. It sucks that as a law enforcement officer you had to see those things in your work, but it sucks that I had to live through them. You seeing pieces of that girls head on the cieling, that’s me seeing piece of my cousin’s leg on the living room like hamburger meat cuz he caught a stray from a drive-by. You trying to save that infant is me watching my cousin’s daugther do the same thing. It sucks. But I had to live next door to all through most of my life. 85th Ave. East Oakland, Ca
Warhorse: I don’t know how ths pertains to our discussion, but i’ll humor you. You would lose nearly all of your “bets”.
You’re right I have never been shot, but I have been shot at many times, one of which I watched my brother get hit.
You’re wrong, people have tried to kill me on numerous occasions, see above.
You’re wrong, I’ve worked with the French, and I have numerous colleagues that are French.
You’re wrong, I’ve seen many people starving in front of me. I’ve seen family members starving. I’ve seen my mother feed my family of five on fucking food stamps.
You’re wrong, I’ve seen many, many people beg for less than $2 to do a day’s work.
It’s funny that this shit came up out of nowhere, because you presume things about a person you know nothing about, and secondly because you presume that I must travel to a third world country to see these things. I’ve seen everything you’ve stated right here in the good ol’ USA, and it pisses me off to no end that upper class people could help enormously and many don’t. It pisses me off to no end that this shit goes on and the government is actually LOWERING taxes on insanely rich people.
You are right about one thing though, I do have a good start on some good book learning. Actually as a graduate from MIT I have the best start and finish on book learning in my field in the world. I also have many experiences in the “real” world that very few will ever duplicate. Again, what does this have to do with this discussion?
Fitone, you said: “just have to ask Realest one question “why are you not living w/ the people in Iraq right now?” You could be a “human shield” for them. If you really truely are oppose to this war.”
So the question is why don’t I use myself as a human shield if I oppose this war? Well, for one, as I made clear to people that can actually read and comprehend written language, I don’t totally oppose this war. I lean towards the side that does, but I also see many justifible reason for doing it.
Secondly, if I did oppose this war, you feel that the best way to oppose it is to act as a human shield? Well let’s look at the two options. I could, as an American that disagrees with my government’s decision, appeal to my elected officials and try to get them to change their policies (hence the representitive democracy we live in) or I could go to Iraq and act as a “human shield.”
Hey Fitone, since you truly support the war, why don’t you buy a gun, fly to Iraq, and run around the desert dismantling the Iraqi military?
The Mage: you make some good point, along with some bad ones.
Saddam should be punished, you are right. Again, I’ve said it 100 times, NO ONE IS DEFENDING SADDAM. The protestors, are not defending Saddam, anti-war activists are not defending Saddam. They all want him gone. Many of them were telling the US government he should be gone 8 years ago, back when you didnt care about him anymore. They want him gone without war, or at least a real effort at that. They want him taken to international court where justice (real justice) can be served, not illegally assassinated.
It’s fun to pretend that you want the evil man gone, and people that disagree with you don’t want the evil man gone. It’s fun to live in that noble dream. But the fact is everyone wants him gone. Some people think he could be gone without war. some people believe there has to be war but our elected officials failed at gathering international support because of finger pointing, arrogance, and ultimatums. Others believe we really did all we could.
France, Russia, and Germany have very lucrative contract in Iraq, and we have very lucrative contracts in removing Saddam. Is it possible that both sides actually have legitimate reasons for their actions. Again, it is a fun dream that we are right and everyone else just wants money, but the real world is more complicated my friend.
Sometimes war must be fought to have peace. Sometimes war destablizes things and makes things less peaceful.
Diesel, Squat is not “gutless” becuase he disagrees with you. He is a proud member of the US National Gaurd, which is more than you’ve done to this point for the US Military regardless of what you “plan” on doing in the future. It’s good that you believe the US is the force of good and you are fighting “evil” around the world. That mentality is perfect for a soldier that must take orders to do undesirable things.
I also don’t have to worry about the draft, I am already a member of the USAF which, again, is more than you’ve done for the US Military to this point.
Contrary to your belief, all soldiers to not join to fight “evil.” Most join because of circumstance, which is not to say that they are not proud to be a member, but it is to say that there is a reason why minorities and lower-income disproportionately represented. Are you implying that minorities are braver, more patriotic, and more willing to die for this country? That is flattering, but I believe there are other reasons at work here.
That’s irrelevant though. Even if they all signed up to fight “evil” your argument is that we shouldn’t do anything to help the troops once they get home because they wanted to go in the first place? What!? Wow, you really love the troops huh!?
Zaporano.
Anything in life can go wrong.
The risks of not fighting this war grossly outweigh those of fighting it.
This war will not drag on for years. It will not turn into another Vietnam. We'd be done with Saddam's regime in a matter of a few weeks if we chose to pverlook civilian casualties resulting from using powerful weapons in Bagdad.
It will not last a few weeks - instead it'll last a few months, as a result of our care and attention to minimizing innocent casualties. Still, this war will be done by end of Summer, at the most. Wait and see.
After the first gulf war, we dropped the ball by not helping the Iraqi freedom fighters that fought against the Saddam regime. We let them down, and that was the most deplorable thing we did. We gave them hope, and let them be slaughtered. There were even people covered in kerosene and set on fire.
Iraq had the fourth most powerful military in the world before the gulf war. While we seriously damaged his war machine, it was in no way eliminated. The freedom fighters had no way to compete against that. The uprising was not enough to overpower Saddam’s war machine.
I also notice that people only point to Bush, or America. About 50 countries are helping in some way or another to this action, and I hear not one word about these countries. Only America.
There WILL be Arab retaliation over this crap. The next logical attack will be chemical/biological. I personally think the death total will exceed 9/11 and IF the present putz is still in office the attack will be used to his political/petroleum industry gain under the guise of patriotism…AGAIN!