Thanks Brook.
[quote]Dynamo Hum wrote:
BulletproofTiger wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
Your approach is good. I prefer it to simply running the enanthate for the 8 weeks but it is one of those things that for user convenience, availability, and other reasons I’ve never pushed on anyone.
The advantage is that you’re able to keep levels high up almost right to (just a few days away from) the point where levels are allowing recovery, rather than having more extended time with declining levels yet still no hope of recovery beginning.
However, that latter disadvantage can be largely or entirely corrected for by compensating with increased use of orals.
I prefer counting cycle length according to time suppressed. So for an 8 week (by this standard) cycle with enanthate, depending on the dose used the last injection might be at the end of week 6. It can still be 8 weeks of full effectiveness with the compensating-with-orals appoach.
With propionate the same cycle length – in terms of time at suppressive levels – can maintain the desired T levels for considerably longer before having to discontinue.
But inasmuch as enanthate is cheaper and more convenient, doing a mixed approach with enanthate for the beginning and middle and propionate for the end can be preferred for those reasons over using propionate throughout.
(Note: some would probably choose to compare injecting enanthate for 8 weeks to injecting propionate for 8 weeks but this is not an equal comparison, because time of being suppressed is considerably longer in the first case, if a frontload is used then the total injected amount is also greater in the first case, etc. If you want to compare injecting 8 weeks of enanthate to something, it should be to injecting say 9.5 weeks of propionate.)
Brilliant Bill. I mean intuitively I knew this, but you spelled it out really well. Your advice sounds really solid. I probably will change my cycle due to your advice.
FYI: I know the post is asks about prop, but I probably will use enth and orals now. I’m thinking some combo of test enanthate, finishing with dbol. I also have proviron on hand, arimidex, and nolva.
How does this front loaded test enth cycle sound?
Enth (W1-6 ~900mg first injection then 250mg E3D),
Proviron (W1-8 25mg 2X/D)
DBol (W5-8 10mg 3X/D)
Arim (W3-8 .25mg/D)
Nolva (W9-12 40/40/20/20)
That looks great to me. Some small optimizations:
- Enanthate frontload on 1st inject: 670 mg not 900 mg
Frontload = (weekly mg * half life / days per week) + interval dose
Your case: (583 * 5 / 7) + 250 = 670mg
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Adex: I would raise the amount to around 0.5mg/d while on Enanthate & dbol. From experience E2 buildup and sensitive nipples are greater from this combo but can be effectively managed with the appropriate dose of AI.
-
Nolva: You might want to wait 3 Test E half lives before starting. 1st half life 291mg serum level remaining, 2nd half life 145.5mg serum level remaining, 3rd half life 72.75mg serum level remaining. Half life for our purposes is 5 days so wait 15-16 days before starting Nolva.
-
Nolva frontload: 140mg on day1 in split doses throughout day (I forgot to mention that in prior post). This will assure good absorption.
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Nolva: If frontloaded, it is not necessary to do 40/40/20/20 instead do 20/20/20/20 since blood level will be effective from day 1.
(Credit to Bill Roberts as my info was gleaned from his prolific writing)[/quote]
Wow. Thanks a lot for doing those calculations for me Dynamo! Looks like it’s shaping up to be an intelligent plan thanks to this kind of valuable input. I’ll incorporate this info for sure.
Just to synthesize it all down:
Enanthate frontload on 1st inject: 670 mg, then 250mg E3D W1-6
Proviron (W1-8 25mg 2X/D)
DBol (W5-8 10mg 3X/D)
Arim (W3-4 .25mg/D, W5-7 .5mg/D, W8 .25mg/D)
Nolva (frontload on 1st dose: 140 mg, then 20mg ED W9-12
[quote]BulletproofTiger wrote:
Just to synthesize it all down:
Enanthate frontload on 1st inject: 670 mg, then 250mg E3D W1-6
Proviron (W1-8 25mg 2X/D)
DBol (W5-8 10mg 3X/D)
Arim (W3-4 .25mg/D, W5-7 .5mg/D, W8 .25mg/D)
Nolva (frontload on 1st dose: 140 mg, then 20mg ED W9-12
[/quote]
Anybody think, “Too much on cycle anti-E’s”?
[quote]BulletproofTiger wrote:
Just to synthesize it all down:
Enanthate frontload on 1st inject: 670 mg, then 250mg E3D W1-6
Proviron (W1-8 25mg 2X/D)
DBol (W5-8 10mg 3X/D)
Arim (W3-4 .25mg/D, W5-7 .5mg/D, W8 .25mg/D)
Nolva (frontload on 1st dose: 140 mg, then 20mg ED W9-12
[/quote]
Looks good to go IMHO. Good planning!!
As for the AI dosage, everyone has a different sensitivity to estro sides and also to the AI in question (Adex or Letro). These are good guidelines for someone who does not yet have a baseline.
The best way to gauge is as follow:
-
Poor libido, bloated, emotional = too high E2 = increase AI dose
-
Great libido, not bloated, no achy joints, clear minded = just right E2 = Perfect dose of AI
-
Poor libido, achy joints, mentally foggy, poor morale = too low E2 = decrease AI dose
Edited to correct typo in point 3.
[quote]Dynamo Hum wrote:
- Poor libido, achy joints, mentally foggy, poor morale = too low E2 = increase AI dose[/quote]
You mean DECREASE the AI dose. 
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Dynamo Hum wrote:
- Poor libido, achy joints, mentally foggy, poor morale = too low E2 = increase AI dose
You mean DECREASE the AI dose. :)[/quote]
Thanks Aragon,
Good catch on my typo. I edited the previous post.
Any reason why you chose Dbol to end versus another oral? It would seem using anavar or primo ace would be better because they arent even suppressive at lower doses. You could Bridge to the Var then lower the dose slowly with a SERM and begin recovery
[quote]soontobeIFBB wrote:
Any reason why you chose Dbol to end versus another oral? It would seem using anavar or primo ace would be better because they arent even suppressive at lower doses. You could Bridge to the Var then lower the dose slowly with a SERM and begin recovery[/quote]
I’m not the OP, but I have followed the formulation of his cycle from the get go.
The dbol is to maintain the momentum of the test e in the period between its cessation and PCT (as well as supplement the test E for the two weeks the two overlap and the other 2 weeks while serum level of test E declines adequately to start PCT).
The OP is waiting 2 weeks for the test E to clear before starting PCT. The dbol serves to prolong the period of gains without adding any delay to recovery.
Also, correct me if I am wrong. dbol will give a great power boost (more so than the other compounds mentioned) to end the cycle in style.
I dunno, dbols great for making you puff up but if the concern is to continue gains then why not use anastrol? That would certainly provide better gains then a Class II alone…
I understand the point of using an oral DH im just questioning that particular oral… If he wanted quicker recovery why not use the anavar or primo…
It just seems to me that dbol (essentially alone) does not give you great “real” gains and it is suppressive so…
Thanks Soontobe… I’ll check into it. Post in the morning
[quote]soontobeIFBB wrote:
I dunno, dbols great for making you puff up but if the concern is to continue gains then why not use anastrol? That would certainly provide better gains then a Class II alone…
I understand the point of using an oral DH im just questioning that particular oral… If he wanted quicker recovery why not use the anavar or primo…
It just seems to me that dbol (essentially alone) does not give you great “real” gains and it is suppressive so…[/quote]
The D-bol will not be run alone. Serum levels of Test E will be roughly as follows:
W5-6: D-bol used along full dosed (585mg/w) enanthate
W7: D-bol run alongside serum level between 580mg at beginning of week and approx 280mg at end of week.
W8: D-bol run along serum level between approx 280mg st beginning of week and 100mg at end of week.
With adequate Adex (adjusted upward for the period when test e and D-bol overlap), one would limit the bloat.
When you suggest anastrol are you referring to Anastrozole the AI? You must mean Anadrol. Yes, that is certainly another alternative. Both should work out well depending on which agrees best with the individual’s particular physiology.
anastrol is anadrol + winstrol
I understood that the test would be dropping. I just dont think (purely IMO) that the dropping level test is enough to continue to make gains. If it were mere I would rather run a more effective oral combo so those last two weeks are still successful. I guess part of it, is that I am not a big fan of Diana in general. Just givin the man options is all…
[quote]soontobeIFBB wrote:
anastrol is anadrol + winstrol
I understood that the test would be dropping. I just dont think (purely IMO) that the dropping level test is enough to continue to make gains. If it were mere I would rather run a more effective oral combo so those last two weeks are still successful. I guess part of it, is that I am not a big fan of Diana in general. Just givin the man options is all…
[/quote]
Gotcha. Everyone has their preferences. Since it is the OP’s first cycle, why not go with a staple like D-bol and save the combos & blends for a future run?
I understand your preference of the dryer alternative. In your experience, do you get as much strenth gains from the combo of anadrol & winstrol as D-bol?
[quote]soontobeIFBB wrote:
anastrol is anadrol + winstrol
I understood that the test would be dropping. I just dont think (purely IMO) that the dropping level test is enough to continue to make gains. If it were mere I would rather run a more effective oral combo so those last two weeks are still successful. I guess part of it, is that I am not a big fan of Diana in general. Just givin the man options is all…
[/quote]
I really appreciate the alternative suggestions soontobe! I appreciate the back and forth between you and dynamo. Those are some good options for others (or myself in the future) that you’ve sugested. I’m probably going to stick with dianabol though (cause I already have it).
FYI I’m waiting on syringes (and for my shoulder to heal up a little), then I’m gonna jump into it. Nothing is concrete yet, but at least I have a couple of decent viable plans laid out.