Planning a Medium Cycle for a First Run

Pharma / TRT
1

Hi,

I’m planning a short/medium cycle where I hope to put on a decent amount of lean mass, without raising too many eyebrows. I’m 5 foot 8, 154 lbs, 30 this year. Diet is pretty solid, averaging around 3000 calories with >180 protein a day.

Was thinking of running 250mg of test e pw - not keen to start with higher as acne and hair loss are a concern due to problems with both naturally. Have access to pretty much anything, but liver toxicity is a concern, so I’m thinking a short medium dose var run on it and maybe a week or two of dbol at the start to kick off is all I would want to add on for now.

Wondering oppinions on pros and cons of taking a week or two of Dbol 30mg per day to kick start, running 250mg pw, vs 250 per week with a 500 shot on day 1 of test e?

I would like to build in anavar to hopefully help get rid of some fat, especially visceral fat, as well as perhaps helping to ensure longevity of gains and a dryer look.

I’m going to be starting on Monday or Tuesday and would like to be in noticably better shape in a month time as I have a few social events I want to look good for. Concern is, at these events (possibly one event 18th April, definitely the following Saturday) I would ideally like to have either, at least a few beers, or if not viewed as being completely irresponsible (please comment free of bias, and based on an as objective as possible view of the risk of problems from a stressed liver) maybe low dose ecstasy or speed, as the club goes on until morning and I could do with something stronger than caffeine to keep me awake.

Wondering if 2 weeks of 30 mg dbol would put significant stress on the liver?.. Would the effects have been normalised within 2 weeks off? How about if running a low/moderate dose at the same time/for an additional 2 weeks?

As I planned to run the test e for 6 weeks, if it’s seeming risky, what are the thoughts on leaving it until 25th April - which would result in starting it in the 5th of 6 weeks of test… running it for 3 weeks while test levels dip towards normal levels?

RE AI and PCT, I was intending to base it closely on Furious George’s stickied medium cycle protocal - as below, but not sure I can get HCG - but with the dates adjusted to start PCT at week 7 if anavar was finished parallel or earlier than test. If anavar was in weeks 5-8 of a 6 week test cycle, when would it be best to start PCT?.. would it may be worth running a 7th week test at 125mg to taper it out while var is running, then pct when everything is closer to baseline? Another option, and I suspect this will be viewed as pointless due to it taking a few weeks to ‘feel’ the var, but if the liver risk situation I posed is significant, maybe running var for 2 weeks before it and 2 weeks at the start and 2 weeks post social occasion - therby also shortening the overlap at the end, reducing the need to consider the 7th week at 125mg test.

MODERATE LEAN MASS
W 1-8 Test Prop 100mg EOD
W 1-8 Tren Ace 75mg EOD
W 1-8 Mast Prop 50mg EOD
W 1-9 Adex 0.25mg EOD
W 2-8 HCG 250iu E3D
PCT
W 9-12 Nolva or Clomid

Appreciate your input.

2

:frowning:

3

Why the sad face?

4

Anyone have any constructive thoughts on what I wrote?

5

If the lack of responses is due to thinking my idea is poorly thought out, rather than lacking the knowledge necessary to answer the questions (I’m inclined to think the former, though given the lack of abuse I do wonder…) then feel free to pick it all apart - I think I have good justifications for all…

For instance, I imagine that some of the experienced users think my weight, and or low starter dose, is an issue, as it means I’m not training properly, and the rate and ceiling of progress would be limited due to that and not maximising virgin receptors.

If this is the case, I’m currently paying for 3 pt sessions with a Mr Britain title holder and would be for the duration - increasing training to at least 4 times a week while on, though beyond the 3rd session I will probaby train on my own. As for the virgin receptors, I don’t want to go far beyond natural maximum, if at all, and I would rather get there in a few cycles than a couple, so it isn’t a concern. Do I want to wait for perhaps another 4+ training naturally to achieve what I could in a year… no… I want to be in prime condition when I am young enough to make the most of it.

I’m a rational person, naturally analytical, and evaluate the risks of all chemicals… certainly not rushing in to this lightly - I’ve probably spent around 40 hours reading up on steroids this time around, and at least the same amount of time again over the years.

If you think I’m wrong on any point, feel free to tell me so; and if you think you know the answers to the questions I posed, please do share.

6

I would personally kickstart with Dbols (if youre saying your liver can handle them, you mentioned something about toxicity). Keep them as low as possible though (in your case specifically) because they are quite taxing on the liver.
With this your gains will be there earlier and contribute to more gains over the whole cycle.
A first shot of 500 mg test and then going ahead running 250 I think that’s plain BS.
Youre not going to get any “starting boost” or whatever youre trying to achieve with this, as test works as a depot and therefore needs around 4 weeks to build aup and kick in, in your body.
Go for the Dbol, while test builds up, then go test only (plus additional compunds to maintain your health)
For this to, go read the steroid newbie sticky, it provides all the necessary information you need.

All the best

7

Thanks for the response. I have read the stickied starter thread. I won’t be starting without an AI and PCT stash. HCG will be aquired if available. Beyond that - and I’m not sure if it was mentioned in that particular thread - St John’s wort; which if taken would be for the first couple of weeks of the cycle, and during PCT… so that there wouldn’t be a risk of interactions with the recreational substances I mentioned.

What I was wondering in particular re that question, was whether anyone had seen any info on exactly how stressed dbol and var make the liver, and how long it takes to normalise? As an example, if it took 4 weeks to normalise after 4 weeks on, I would then feel comfortable that if I did it for 1 week and had 3 off before the recreationals, the risk shouldn’t be much, if at all higher than it would have been with recreationals alone.

What would be the lowest effective dose for a dbol kick?

Re the anavar 2 weeks at a time bit, my thinking is that even if you don’t feel it for 2 weeks, it must still be enhancing things as it is a fast acting drug?

Just realised I didn’t explain the following clearly: ''Wondering if 2 weeks of 30 mg dbol would put significant stress on the liver?.. Would the effects have been normalised within 2 weeks off? How about if running a low/moderate dose at the same time/for an additional 2 weeks?

As I planned to run the test e for 6 weeks, if it’s seeming risky, what are the thoughts on leaving it until 25th April - which would result in starting it in the 5th of 6 weeks of test… running it for 3 weeks while test levels dip towards normal levels?‘’

This referred to anavar at the same time as dbol ''How about if running a low/moderate dose at the same time/for an additional 2 weeks?
‘’

This then referred to impact of var mixed with dbol, and asked whether postponing var until after the recreationals are out of my system, running a 3 week cycle starting in week 5 and ending in the first shot free week, would be an effective and safer plan ‘‘As I planned to run the test e for 6 weeks, if it’s seeming risky, what are the thoughts on leaving it until 25th April - which would result in starting it in the 5th of 6 weeks of test… running it for 3 weeks while test levels dip towards normal levels?’’

8

If the liver is such a big issue in your case, why are you thinking that much about Dbols?
You can also run a test prop if you want immediate gains.
Maybe add something to that like tren etc.
Being all injections, you wont have those liver issues.
There are tons of possibilitys, find the one that suits you best, and for you, that would be something that doesn’t tax the liver.

Btw your text is pretty confusing and leads to skipping half of it. No offense, just try maybe being a little precise and clear with what youre trying to say. That might result in someone actually being able to answer your questions man :slight_smile:

9

I was in your boat a few years ago. I’m 33 now. When I was 29 I weighed 165lbs. I got real serious about training and diet…I lived and breathed training and diet. I went from 165lbs to 200lbs in about a year and a half. Once I started to really plateau that when I tuened to gear. Before I even did my first pin I read and read some more on any and everything gear realated. I now am a solid 250lb after 4 cycles of the first 3 being test e only and one being test and primo. If I were u I would focus on diet and training before taking that step. Get as big and strong natually first. That way to you will have a better chance of keeping what u gain from gear if you have a soild natural foundation…just my two cents.

10

Well I read some stuff that suggested that while Dbol toxicity shouldn’t be taken lightly, its toxicity over moderate doses and cycles is likely not that harmful. The liver concern is just trying to be sensible really; having been a heavy drinker and fairly regular recreational drug taker until my early twenties, and still indulging about once a month, I wouldn’t want to put myself through excessive risk.

Tren seems way too hardcore for what I’m looking for. Prop doesn’t sound like fun… neither the pain, or increased risk of sides.

Just wondering now if Sustanon would be less painful and have less sides? Can’t remember, but my contact may have said he could get it. Perhaps Sust for the first two weeks then switching to Test E could be a viable option?

And yeah… it was nearly 2am when I wrote it :confused:

11

Let’s see… You are 2 inches taller than me and 30 pounds lighter than me. You are making some claim that you want to get to your maximum natural potential while using exogenous hormones. You want to run 5 compounds as a first cycle, yet have no clue how your body even reacts to just testosterone.
You think 40 hours of reading compares to what most have invested with regards to research? You also come right out and state your lazyness. You want to achieve in one year with AAS what might take 4+ years naturally? LOL!

12

[quote]ljohnso8 wrote:
If I were u I would focus on diet and training before taking that step. Get as big and strong natually first. That way to you will have a better chance of keeping what u gain from gear if you have a soild natural foundation…just my two cents.[/quote]

Thanks for the input, but - and correct me if I’m wrong - if the training and diet is appropriate at the time of cycle, and continues afterwards, wouldn’t the chance of maintaing the gains be equally? I thought the muscle quality is the same, and therefore wouldn’t atrophy any different. While the extra time spent following the diet and training regime proves the commitment necessary to maintain it, I don’t think it would give me a greater chance of retaining gains - I either would have it in me, or wouldn’t… the time spent wouldn’t make me more likely, it would just hint at aptitude for sustaining beforehand.

13

[quote]snipeout wrote:
Let’s see… You are 2 inches taller than me and 30 pounds lighter than me. You are making some claim that you want to get to your maximum natural potential while using exogenous hormones. You want to run 5 compounds as a first cycle, yet have no clue how your body even reacts to just testosterone.
You think 40 hours of reading compares to what most have invested with regards to research? You also come right out and state your lazyness. You want to achieve in one year with AAS what might take 4+ years naturally? LOL!
[/quote]

Are you at your natural maximum or enhanced? If the latter, the fact that you’re 30 pounds heavier isn’t really a great comparison.

What 5 compounds are you referring to, to be clear? Are you referring to none anabolics?

No, you seem to think that I was comparing my own research with the people on this forum - all I did was mention how much research I have done. I think that 40 hours this bout… and as I said, probably at least double including previous forays is a pretty reasonable amount of research - I would venture a lot more than most put in before pinning. And, as you mentioned comparisons, you presume that all people read and assimilate information at the same rate - I could be Johnny-fucking-five for all you know my friend :wink:

Finally, laziness is a measure of motivation, not desire, or impatience. So your assertion is incorrect. Had you have said you are impatient I would have probably gone along with that, although it’s not really the case either. You see, I can be patient, but in lieu of a good reasons, eg, I will actually cause myself harm if I start before attaining my natural max, I see no reason to delay the process, and the attainment of the body composition I desire. However, unless a good reason does exist, it seems pretty fucking pointless to spend 4 or however many years unhappier than I potentially could be.

Oh, and going back to the reading skills part… I did ask for constructive comments only :wink:

14

[quote]secret-squirrel wrote:

[quote]ljohnso8 wrote:
If I were u I would focus on diet and training before taking that step. Get as big and strong natually first. That way to you will have a better chance of keeping what u gain from gear if you have a soild natural foundation…just my two cents.[/quote]

Thanks for the input, but - and correct me if I’m wrong - if the training and diet is appropriate at the time of cycle, and continues afterwards, wouldn’t the chance of maintaing the gains be equally? I thought the muscle quality is the same, and therefore wouldn’t atrophy any different. While the extra time spent following the diet and training regime proves the commitment necessary to maintain it, I don’t think it would give me a greater chance of retaining gains - I either would have it in more, or wouldn’t… the time spent wouldn’t make me more likely, it would just hint at aptitude for sustaining beforehand.
[/quote]

Sure, if you can keep up your training and diet. If that’s the case you’re absolutely right. But the fact that you’re 5’8" and 154lbs shows that you either lack the knowledge of proper training protocol (which only experience can provide) or the discipline to remain consistent, if not both. Your lifts probably aren’t that great, either. This is significant because while the muscle gear builds isn’t any different, your tendons won’t build up fast enough to compensate. As you’re presumably a beginner, your tendons won’t be that strong to begin with, so you’re putting yourself at an increased risk of injury. This risk is compounded by your inexperience, as you will most likely lack the form, intuitive connection with your body, and restraint while lifting that are necessary to avoid injury.

Basically, the risk:benefit ratio is not exactly in your favour.

I was your exact height and weight 1.5 years ago. I stand 40lbs heavier today without being a complete fat ass. No AAS involved, and I’ve come to the decision that I won’t start until I can’t make good natty gains anymore. No sense crossing that bridge before I need to. Just trying to say that you CAN make pretty damn good gains without resorting to drugs.

15

[quote]secret-squirrel wrote:
Well I read some stuff that suggested that while Dbol toxicity shouldn’t be taken lightly, its toxicity over moderate doses and cycles is likely not that harmful. The liver concern is just trying to be sensible really; having been a heavy drinker and fairly regular recreational drug taker until my early twenties, and still indulging about once a month, I wouldn’t want to put myself through excessive risk.

Tren seems way too hardcore for what I’m looking for. Prop doesn’t sound like fun… neither the pain, or increased risk of sides.

Just wondering now if Sustanon would be less painful and have less sides? Can’t remember, but my contact may have said he could get it. Perhaps Sust for the first two weeks then switching to Test E could be a viable option?

And yeah… it was nearly 2am when I wrote it :/[/quote]

I see your point with the Sust, but I wouldn’t go for that one as your test levels imbalance a lot with the product over a week. The mixture of short/mid length esthers will lead to a great increase of test in the first days while rapidly dropping after that. I think you should give your body something more stable in blood levels like Enant, which I know was your original idea.

What you COULD do to start your actual gains from day 1 is to add in prop for those 4 weeks (so 4 weeks of injection mayhem haha)while lowering the test just a little and then switching to enant only once it has build up.
Just make sure that you calculate the dosages accordingly because enant and prop don’t have the same bio availability.

Also, I hope that for the length of your cycle you don’t drink. And even though it might be true that Dbols are ot really heavier on the liver than drinking, that doesn’t give a good input as you would be skeptical aswell if someone said drinking on a daily base was easy on the liver, because Dbols are thrown in daily. Unlike your “once in a month” drinking. You get the idea.

Maybe you should run test only for your first cycle man. Just stick to that to see how you respond, who knows, maybe it does all you want from your body and you don’t even need Dbols etc to achieve the body of your dreams. Id say build up on cycles. Start off as basic as possible.
(just talking AAS, the aiding compounds and PCT have to be there though.)

16

What I meant was with proper diet and training you could put on almost 50lbs in a couple years naturally. You are at the right age and you do seem fairly knowledgeable about gear. But I would still try hit your natural limit before gear. Your weight tells the story of your diet and training.

17

[quote]Apoklyps wrote:

[quote]secret-squirrel wrote:

[quote]ljohnso8 wrote:
If I were u I would focus on diet and training before taking that step. Get as big and strong natually first. That way to you will have a better chance of keeping what u gain from gear if you have a soild natural foundation…just my two cents.[/quote]

Thanks for the input, but - and correct me if I’m wrong - if the training and diet is appropriate at the time of cycle, and continues afterwards, wouldn’t the chance of maintaing the gains be equally? I thought the muscle quality is the same, and therefore wouldn’t atrophy any different. While the extra time spent following the diet and training regime proves the commitment necessary to maintain it, I don’t think it would give me a greater chance of retaining gains - I either would have it in more, or wouldn’t… the time spent wouldn’t make me more likely, it would just hint at aptitude for sustaining beforehand.
[/quote]

[/quote]But the fact that you’re 5’8" and 154lbs shows that you either lack the knowledge of proper training protocol (which only experience can provide) or the discipline to remain consistent, if not both. [/quote]

The training hadn’t been where it should have been. I wasn’t concentrating on time under tension, or training hard enough. I have had 3 weeks of training 3 x a week, with someone that really knows his shit - all about proper techinique to get the most out of each movement. I then had 2 weeks training on my own while he was out of the country, and I am starting again tomorrow. I am now gaining weight, but only 2lbs in the 5 weeks. I think I likely have high cortisol levels from a stressful job, and probably low average testosterone - never really have any aggression, even in situations most guys would flip out at, and seem to have some of the other symptoms of low test. I think they could explain why progress is slow, even with proper training and nutrition.

[/quote]
Your lifts probably aren’t that great, either. This is significant because while the muscle gear builds isn’t any different, your tendons won’t build up fast enough to compensate. As you’re presumably a beginner, your tendons won’t be that strong to begin with, so you’re putting yourself at an increased risk of injury. This risk is compounded by your inexperience, as you will most likely lack the form, intuitive connection with your body, and restraint while lifting that are necessary to avoid injury.

Basically, the risk:benefit ratio is not exactly in your favour.[/quote]

Lifts aren’t great in terms of weight lifted, but if you are speaking about form, I would disagree. As I said, my trainer know his shit and makes sure I have propper form… set ends when form is compromised, if that happens before failure.

I wouldn’t want to, and he wouldn’t push me to go in heavy. We have been starting with low weights mastering form, and failure can be acheived with low weights and correct time under tension. Boost to strength would be welcomed though, and enable me to increase my efforts while remaining sensible. I dont imagine I would go below the 4 rep range, and therefore I don’t consider the risk of tendon damage to be high.[/quote]

18

Why not just run test C/E/P @ 500Mg/week and see how your body responds to test only? Have proper PCT and keep and AI on hand and use only if needed. You may find that you repond well with test and may not need estrogen control at that level. Next cycle, maybe bump it up a bit and see how you day.

Next, maybe add dbol. Its trial and error but your throwing a lot of different compounds into the mix right off the bat, so if you have an issue its hard to narrow it down. I’m a big fan of test only cycles, maybe im an old school thinker, but I like proviron with it too. Either way, I would start with 1 compound to see how your body reacts. It’s a marathon, not a race :slight_smile: Train hard and enjoy the time on.

19

Well it seems your very adamant about doing a cycle…I get it. So if your not going to try and get what you can naturally first just run test at 500mg a week and since time is a concern run test prop. Have a AI like nova, aroma or airmedex. If you can run hcg at 500ui a week to keep your nuts working. Wait 3-4 days and start pct. Clomid or nova for 4 weeks. Train hard 4-5 times a week…and eat…eat and eat…clean as possible. You will enjoy it…I know I do…time on you definitely feel amazing. Be safe. As for the beers and other rec drugs…be careful… especially the on speed or ecstacy.

20

[quote]owenthetrainer wrote:

[quote]secret-squirrel wrote:
Well I read some stuff that suggested that while Dbol toxicity shouldn’t be taken lightly, its toxicity over moderate doses and cycles is likely not that harmful. The liver concern is just trying to be sensible really; having been a heavy drinker and fairly regular recreational drug taker until my early twenties, and still indulging about once a month, I wouldn’t want to put myself through excessive risk.

Tren seems way too hardcore for what I’m looking for. Prop doesn’t sound like fun… neither the pain, or increased risk of sides.

Just wondering now if Sustanon would be less painful and have less sides? Can’t remember, but my contact may have said he could get it. Perhaps Sust for the first two weeks then switching to Test E could be a viable option?

And yeah… it was nearly 2am when I wrote it :/[/quote]

I see your point with the Sust, but I wouldn’t go for that one as your test levels imbalance a lot with the product over a week. The mixture of short/mid length esthers will lead to a great increase of test in the first days while rapidly dropping after that. I think you should give your body something more stable in blood levels like Enant, which I know was your original idea.

What you COULD do to start your actual gains from day 1 is to add in prop for those 4 weeks (so 4 weeks of injection mayhem haha)while lowering the test just a little and then switching to enant only once it has build up.
Just make sure that you calculate the dosages accordingly because enant and prop don’t have the same bio availability.

Also, I hope that for the length of your cycle you don’t drink. And even though it might be true that Dbols are ot really heavier on the liver than drinking, that doesn’t give a good input as you would be skeptical aswell if someone said drinking on a daily base was easy on the liver, because Dbols are thrown in daily. Unlike your “once in a month” drinking. You get the idea.

Maybe you should run test only for your first cycle man. Just stick to that to see how you respond, who knows, maybe it does all you want from your body and you don’t even need Dbols etc to achieve the body of your dreams. Id say build up on cycles. Start off as basic as possible.
(just talking AAS, the aiding compounds and PCT have to be there though.)
[/quote]

Have you used prop personally? If so, how painful is it 1-10? And is it more painful the more that is injected in each shot? Did you get any sickness from it? Isn’t it supposed to be more likely to cause acne and gyno to flare up? Unless you surprise me with your answers, it’s not looking like an option for me right now.

I have seen conflicting things about frontloading E, even from 2 of the most respected members of this forum. You, or anyone else, tried frontloading?..What are the oppinions on the effectiveness (feeling it, and likely contribution to accelerated/maximised results) of frontloading test E?

I would only be at full dose for 5 or 6 weeks - including a frontload if I go that route. I also wouldn’t want to go much beyond 500mg per week, except for maybe in the first week for the kick, maybe a 2nd for levels to normalise somewhere between 4 and 600 - I was initially planning on doing 250pw and would rather be closer to 400 than 600. I have seen some frontloaded cycle plans, but think they were all for higher doses. I did just try and work it out, but about 3 weeks in to the cycle I gave up as it got too confusing trying to keep all the figures in check… maths isn’t my strongest suit and the best of times, and writing on the back of an envelope isn’t ideal… Has anyone seen, or is able to recommend a frontload cycle plan that keeps to the range of 4-600 for the most part? It would be appreciated if you could hook me up.

I have literally drank 2, maybe 3 times this year, and only once was more than a couple of pints… not missing alcohol and won’t be drinking, except for the possibility of having a couple of pints on the night I mentioned towards the end of cycle. Sure I could do without if there is a risk, but would think if it is just test, or if there is no dbol involved for a couple of weeks either side, should be pretty much ok, right?