[quote]PGJ wrote:
Michael570 wrote:
PGJ wrote:
When over 3,000 Americans died on 9/11 in the name of Allah, I didn’t see a whole lot of regret and anguish out of the Islamic nations. I DID see millions dancing in the streets of Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, Saudi, Afghanistan and other Islamic nations. Even Islamic Americans were totally silent and expressed no guilt or shame.
Now you’re just making shit up.
??? I am?
[/quote]
There was dancing in the street all over the muslim world. I don’t know how many people did it but it certainly occurred.
[quote]lucasa wrote:
So then no one chooses to be a redneck anymore than anyone chooses to be a bigot.
[/quote]
I don’t think people choose to be ignorant, for example–its nothing more than a deficiency of perspective.
I will say that once someone recognizes it, it can be controlled to some degree–hence we can have a certain level of tolerance; however, I still think in some way it is a part of us.
I recognize the fact that it exists in me–the best I can do is be fair about it and not let it affect my judgment in regard to my actions toward others, etc.
[quote]PGJ wrote:
When over 3,000 Americans died on 9/11 in the name of Allah, I didn’t see a whole lot of regret and anguish out of the Islamic nations. [/quote]
Allah is not the reason people died on 9/11 anymore than Jesus is to blame for atrocities committed in his name. People (religious leaders) are twisting religion for political reasons (the bonus is that it’s not hard to convince people who have nothing to lose but everything to gain by committing suicide to take out innocent people)–that is the only argument that can be made. I know it’s hard to understand. Westerners don’t get it.
The more the US and its allies vilifies the Islamic religion the more enemies they will make.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
There was dancing in the street all over the muslim world. I don’t know how many people did it but it certainly occurred.[/quote]
Now you’re being reasonable.
The only place where 9/11 was perceived as “hope” was Palestine. Hence, the people rejoicing in the streets. I wasn’t there, so I can’t tell you what their motives were, but I can guess that they aren’t particularly happy about the weapons you guys give away to T’sahal and that are in turn used against them in the occupied territories. Keep in mind that in the international community, you stand out as an unconditional supporter of Israel. Maybe, just maybe, you need to look in that direction for the reason they celebrated on that tragic occasion.
That being, Palestinians in East Jerusalem held a candle-light vigils on the 12th and 14th of September to express their grief and solidarity with the American families struck by this tragedy. Also, the Palestine Legislative Council condemned the terrorist attack on the United States and sent an urgent letter of condolences to Mr. J Dennis Hasterd, Speaker of the House of representatives.
And as much as I hate doing that, I must point out that four hours after the attack the FBI arrested five Israelis who had been filming the smoking skyline from the roof of their company’s building for “puzzling behavior”. The
Israelis were said to have been videotaping the disaster with cries of joy and mockery.
[quote]lixy wrote:
The only place where 9/11 was perceived as “hope” was Palestine.[/quote]
There were celebrations in Lebanon as well but who would be surprised by Hezbollah and Hamas celebrating? Claims of widespread celebrations, let alone “millions”, are bogus.
[quote]Michael570 wrote:
lixy wrote:
The only place where 9/11 was perceived as “hope” was Palestine.
There were celebrations in Lebanon as well but who would be surprised by Hezbollah and Hamas celebrating? Claims of widespread celebrations, let alone “millions”, are bogus. [/quote]
I was unaware of that despite having relatives in Lebanon and being there quite often.
Like you said, no suprise that Hezbollah would celebrate at the tragedy. They share a common ideology with Ben-Laden.
Just to put things into perspective, Lebanon had more than its share of trouble with Israel.
[quote]Michael570 wrote:
lixy wrote:
The only place where 9/11 was perceived as “hope” was Palestine.
There were celebrations in Lebanon as well but who would be surprised by Hezbollah and Hamas celebrating? Claims of widespread celebrations, let alone “millions”, are bogus.
[/quote]
I guess you guys missed all the celebration video of Pakistan, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq and other nations like their team just won the World Cup.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
lucasa wrote:
So then no one chooses to be a redneck anymore than anyone chooses to be a bigot.
I don’t think people choose to be ignorant, for example–its nothing more than a deficiency of perspective.
I will say that once someone recognizes it, it can be controlled to some degree–hence we can have a certain level of tolerance; however, I still think in some way it is a part of us.
I recognize the fact that it exists in me–the best I can do is be fair about it and not let it affect my judgment in regard to my actions toward others, etc.[/quote]
Some people don’t know their ignorant.
Some people consider education/intelligence as “pretty boy”.
Some people who appear ignorant are actually extremely intelligent in those areas that concern them.
You/I/We are not as intelligent as we think we are.
EVERY SINGE PERSON ON THE PLANET knows something you don’t know.
Nobody likes pseudointellectuals.
Respect everyone, consider all perspectives, form your own opinions, be careful of intellectual trends, stand firm in your beliefs.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
PGJ wrote:
When over 3,000 Americans died on 9/11 in the name of Allah, I didn’t see a whole lot of regret and anguish out of the Islamic nations.
Allah is not the reason people died on 9/11 anymore than Jesus is to blame for atrocities committed in his name. People (religious leaders) are twisting religion for political reasons (the bonus is that it’s not hard to convince people who have nothing to lose but everything to gain by committing suicide to take out innocent people)–that is the only argument that can be made. I know it’s hard to understand. Westerners don’t get it.
The more the US and its allies vilifies the Islamic religion the more enemies they will make.[/quote]
I know Allah was not the REASON, but he was the justification. And the Islamic culture appears to be in full support.
NOBODY is committing mass murder in the name of Jesus. It has happened on the rare occasion by sick INDIVIDUALS, followed by a massive outcry from Christians world wide.
I love the way people try to use the “mass murder in the name of Jesus” argument refering to the Crusades.
[quote]PGJ wrote:
I love the way people try to use the “mass murder in the name of Jesus” argument refering to the Crusades.
[/quote]
It was not just the Crusades that Jesus was used to defend the actions of Christians. Pretty much the entire History of Europe and the “New World” centered around the “superiority” of the White man and his religion. Remember, natives were completely annihilated in both South and North Americas in the name of Christianity.
Now, I don’t consider this an excuse for violence on behalf of Islam either. Its just funny how easily we forget recent history.
Remember, natives were completely annihilated in both South and North Americas in the name of Christianity.
What the hell history book did you learn from? We’re way off topic I won’t go into it, but the above portrayal is seriously flawed.
Its just funny how easily we forget recent history.
Yeah, I find it so easy to forget the history you made up.
[/quote]
Uhhhhh…what exactly happened to them?
They killed themselves off? They pushed themselves off into reservations? They declared themselves savages? They summarily executed themselves for not converting to Christianity?
None of the history books I read in school ever talked about what really happened to the native peoples of the Americas either…? Do you think I am naive enough to think we accepted them with open arms when we wanted the lands that they inhabited?
[quote]PGJ wrote:
I guess you guys missed all the celebration video of Pakistan, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq and other nations like their team just won the World Cup. [/quote]
Care to back up that claim with a reliable source?
[quote]lucasa wrote:
What the hell history book did you learn from? We’re way off topic I won’t go into it, but the above portrayal is seriously flawed. [/quote]
You sir, might have never heard of the Requerimiento. Allow me to fill the gap.
[i]The Requerimiento(Spanish “requirement” as in “demand”) was a declaration of sovereignty and war read by Spanish military forces to assert their sovereignty over the Americas. Written by Juan L?pez de Palacios Rubios, it was used to justify the assertion that God, through Jesus Christ and His Papal successors, held authority as ruler over the entire Earth, and that the Inter Caetera, (a Papal Bull of 4 May 1493 by Pope Alexander VI) conferred title over the Americas to the Spanish monarchs.
The Requerimiento emerged in the context of moral debates within Spanish elites over the colonization of the Americas, and associated actions such as war, slavery and war crimes. Read on the battlefield to native peoples who often didn’t speak Castilian Spanish, it proclaims the truth of Christianity, demands the natives’ immediate allegiance to Rome and Madrid, and provides a direct justification for a wide variety of aggressive actions.[/i]
If you know Spanish, I recommend you take look at the integral version of the document. Beats reading a historian’s interpretation of it.
Uhhhhh…what exactly happened to them?[/quote]Disease largely, but a myriad of things. Most of the Southern American tribes got assimilated.[quote]They killed themselves off? They pushed themselves off into reservations?[/quote] Do you differentiate between themselves and each other?[quote]They declared themselves savages?[/quote] Savage=Non-Christian? No.
[quote]They summarily executed themselves for not converting to Christianity?[/quote] The Conquistadores were the only ones to do this in any sort of effect and Spain quickly put an end to it affording Natives protection specifically under law. As I said, most of those tribes survived and were assimilated into the larger and more prolific European populations.
You’re stupid enough to blame it on Christianity. The 400-year gradual extermination of the Native North Americans surrounded the Age of Enlightenment and religion was, at best, loosely the impetus.
Nowhere near as closely related as anything done during the Crusades or terrorism today. Just because someone’s father or king was a Christian doesn’t mean Christianity is the reason that person kills. That was a big part of the Enlightenment and even if you didn’t study American History very well you (as a scientist) should know that.
You sir, might have never heard of the Requerimiento. Allow me to fill the gap.[/quote]
I’m familiar with the Requerimiento. It was a bastardization if the encomiendo system and was the impetus for the Leyes Nuevas. Moreover, my understanding is that the majority of Native Americans that died under the Requerimiento/encomiendo system were worked to death or starved whether they converted or not.
Further, my point wasn’t to say that no Christians killed no Native Americans anywhere. It was that the assertion that ‘Native Americans (North and South) were annihilated because of Christianity’ is wrong because the tribes that were largely persecuted by Christians weren’t annihilated and the tribes that were largely annihilated weren’t largely subject to religious persecution.
Sure, we took away their religious icons made of eagle feathers and let them sell their land out from underneath themselves and sometimes shot them for not leaving, but to equate that with the religious motivations of the Crusades or the profit Muhammad is incorrect.
[quote]lucasa wrote:
Further, my point wasn’t to say that no Christians killed no Native Americans anywhere. It was that the assertion that ‘Native Americans (North and South) were annihilated because of Christianity’ is wrong [/quote]
Great! Now, we’re getting somewhere. Could we agree that Christianity was used as justification to conquer some lands, pillage the riches and subvert its people?
