[quote]pushharder wrote:
stuff[/quote]
And you could also get a button for yourself that says ‘Delusional Shmuck’ if you think a ridiculous ceremony is going to stop either of your children from having sex before marriage.
[quote]haney1 wrote:
You know there is something about this that just strikes me as really weird, and almost sick.
It has to be the dad, and daughter exchanging vows thing.[/quote]
For me its the idea that a daughter would somehow “owe” this to her father, or have to make a public vow. THAT is degrading to women.
To me, this is one psychologically SICK way of lowering a dad’s bloodpressure, and the risk of pregnancy. Or maybe its to get them married off quicker? Or to make sure that they “take care of” any unwanted pregnancy on their own without having to trouble Pa.
And it says little for their moral convictions. (Or much). There is an assumption that a girl, (despite being a vessel of the Spirit) would, left to herself, lack the ability to discern right from wrong.
I suppose all the boys are lining up to take their vows as well?
[quote]jsbrook wrote:
Most who take this pledge aren’t oppposed to oral sex either.[/quote]
Of course not! There’s no way that Pa’s gonna make them take that vow.
[quote]Kayrob wrote:
I think that the vows would be taken under duress, IE the father tells his little girl she is going to take the vow. Kind of makes the vow useless don’t you think?[/quote]
I think if a girl was mature enough to take a vow, she’s mature enough to make her own choices.
Anyway, the Bible forbids making vows. Vows are ammoral, (even marriage vows.) Marriage vows did not exist in Christian weddings until about 1100 because they were considered anti-moral.
I guess that the boys don’t get a choice - they are forced into the same decision by the girls who have pledged.
And I like how the Dads aren’t really giving anything up in making this promise - didn’t they already promise not to have affairs when they married the daughter’s moms?
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Is it the ceremony that bugs you the most or the concept in general that a 15 year old child - male or female - (and her dad…and her mom) might not want to make sex a part of his/her life just yet?
I guess my main support in this debate is for the concept not necessarily the ceremony - the concept and the rights of parents to emphasize abstinence with their children. Maybe I’d change my mind if I saw it up close and personal, the ceremony that is. I dunno.
[/quote]
To me it’s the idea of having kids make a “vow.” It just seems to me that these parents can just get a very public “vow” and then they can stop doing their jobs. “I got the vow, now I can cross that off of the ‘things that stress me out’ list.” Parent’s job is to provide MORAL DEVELOPMENT, not to place legalistic guilt and social pressures on their kids.
It’s similar to fundamentalists turning the Bible into a literal code in the early 20th century. People want a set of rules rather than having to think for themselves.
By the way, 70% of 16-17 year olds claimed to be virgins in an anonomous response to a recent study. Only 30% of 18-19 year olds did, but its interesting to me that that’s the age where people used to get married.
Perceptions were quite different however, as 16-17 year olds believed that 75% of kids their age were sexually active.
Anyway, anyone who has any real faith in their religion should be confident that their children will understand it’s inherent truths if they are brought up right. Having kids take a vow is a sign to me of utter faithlessness.
A thought that occured to me a while ago and I figured I’d ask. What happens if the child makes a vow like this and the parents have either gotten a divorce previously or before the child is married get a divorce? Makes me wonder…
The people who do have this kind of vow probably strong enough religious faith that they won’t get a divorce but should it happen what kind of message would that send?
[quote]pushharder wrote:
mertdawg wrote:
pushharder wrote:
Is it the ceremony that bugs you the most or the concept in general that a 15 year old child - male or female - (and her dad…and her mom) might not want to make sex a part of his/her life just yet?
I guess my main support in this debate is for the concept not necessarily the ceremony - the concept and the rights of parents to emphasize abstinence with their children. Maybe I’d change my mind if I saw it up close and personal, the ceremony that is. I dunno.
To me it’s the idea of having kids make a “vow.” It just seems to me that these parents can just get a very public “vow” and then they can stop doing their jobs. “I got the vow, now I can cross that off of the ‘things that stress me out’ list.” Parent’s job is to provide MORAL DEVELOPMENT, not to place legalistic guilt and social pressures on their kids.
It’s similar to fundamentalists turning the Bible into a literal code in the early 20th century. People want a set of rules rather than having to think for themselves.
By the way, 70% of 16-17 year olds claimed to be virgins in an anonomous response to a recent study. Only 30% of 18-19 year olds did, but its interesting to me that that’s the age where people used to get married.
Perceptions were quite different however, as 16-17 year olds believed that 75% of kids their age were sexually active.
Anyway, anyone who has any real faith in their religion should be confident that their children will understand it’s inherent truths if they are brought up right. Having kids take a vow is a sign to me of utter faithlessness.
Do you feel the same way about wedding vows?
I’m going to assume for the sake of discussion that you think wedding vows are appropriate so here is a further question. You’re saying it’s OK for a hypothetical 19 year old to pledge fidelity forever to their spouse in the form of a formal vow on their wedding day in front of all present but it’s not OK for a 16 year old to pledge abstinence until marriage or at the very least while he/she is under the direct authority of his/her parents and is living at home as a minor???
If you feel the above is correct then your Logic Train has been derailed and is laying at the bottom of the trestle and is burning fiercely.[/quote]
No I don’t believe in wedding vows. This does not mean that I do not believe in monogamy and faithfulness. Wedding vows were not part of the early church’s wedding ceremony and they arose in the middle ages. Monastic vows also did not exist in the early church. Vows were considered to be against the moral code of early Christianity.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Mertdawg, are you a dad? With a teenage daughter(s)?[/quote]
I am a dad of 2, including a 6 year old daughter. I am also a high school teacher, have had over 1500 student’s in my classes and 3000 who I have gotten to know. I know what goes on. The girls who come into high school being morally grounded in a Christian context get through HS just fine without losing their virginity-in fact 72% of ALL girls graduate without losing their virginity.
I guess its a tautology though ie. if your daughter loses her virginity she must not have been properly morally grounded.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Is it the ceremony that bugs you the most or the concept in general that a 15 year old child - male or female - (and her dad…and her mom) might not want to make sex a part of his/her life just yet?
[/quote]
The ceremony between a nine year old girl and her adult father does creep me out a bit.
No parents (myself included) WANT their teen to have sex. But I try not to delude myself either.
The concept of abstinence is understandable. But being realistic, I want my children to know how to properly use condoms. And I also want my children to feel comfortable talking to me about sex, which I don’t think would be possible if I placed unrealistic expectations on them.
You see things differently, that’s fine.
[quote]
However, I do think common sense dictates that a ceremony isn’t going to stop a determined person from having sex if they so desire just like a “ridiculous” marriage “ceremony” won’t stop a spouse from cheating during his/her matrimonial contract. So why do we do it? Were you married in a ceremony, Fatman? If so, do you look back at it in disgust? [/quote]
Nine years olds are not responsible adults. I wouldn’t expect a nine year old to take vows of chastity seriously like I would an adult making the same conviction.
IMO:
Chastity ceremony for nine year olds = ridiculous.
Marriage ceremony between adults = great.