Vows of Chastity

Off Topic
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[quote]pushharder wrote:
Mertdawg, have you ever signed a mortgage? Financed a car? Signed a credit card invoice? Signed your tax return? Executed a business contract? Been a juror? Signed an employment contract as a high school teacher?

Seems to me a guy like you would have a tough time scootin’ through life without being in the vowin’ business…

[/quote]

That’s not a vow, its a contract. I don’t vow to keep my end, I only accept the consequences that are agreed upon in the case that I don’t.

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[quote]pushharder wrote:
mertdawg wrote:
I am a dad of 2, including a 6 year old daughter…

Were your kids born in a hospital or medical center? If so, you made a vow that you’d pay the medical providers for their services.

[/quote]

Again, a contract is not a vow, it is in fact a giving up some of my legal rights should I be unable to keep my end.

Still, I am not vehemently against “vows”, my point is that it is in direct opposition to the process of moral decision making. It is telling a kid “Don’t think about moral right and wrong, think about keeping your vow”

If we can’t explain to our kids why we believe that something is morally wrong, then we have no buisiness holding them to it. If we can, then we vows are a step in the wrong developmental moral direction.

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[quote]pushharder wrote:
mertdawg wrote:
…Still, I am not vehemently against “vows”, my point is that it is in direct opposition to the process of moral decision making. It is telling a kid “Don’t think about moral right and wrong, think about keeping your vow”

If we can’t explain to our kids why we believe that something is morally wrong, then we have no buisiness holding them to it. If we can, then we vows are a step in the wrong developmental moral direction.

I do understand what you’re trying to say in this post.[/quote]

I’ve thought about my position, and what I wrote basically sums it up-but I’m working through it myself as I do have a 6 year old daugther-growing up faster than I can keep track.

For me, the problem with a “vow” basically that it CAN remove a moral element-sex isn’t bad, I just can’t break my vow. Knights were originally compelled to take “vows” in the late dark ages standing before relics of the saints and with the fear that the saints would “punish” or somehow “haunt” them if they forsook those vow-which were originally vows such as not to attack the defenseless on behalf of their feudal lord to compel allegience.

If premarital sex, or sex before a certain age is a moral issue, then a child should be taught to value their moral code that it is wrong, and not a superficial vow which may be based on guilt or fear.

I thought of something that might work better though, and which I think would be more acceptable, and that is to have kids take a vow not to use alchohol at an illegal age.

http://www.gravityteen.com/abstinence/stackit.cfm

Teens who use alcohol are 7 times more likely to have sex than teens who do not.

Now since only 30% of 16-17 year old teens report anonymously that they have lost their virginity, it may suggest that a VERY small percentage of alcohol abstinent teens lose their virginity.

Actually, when teens get their drivers license they do sign an agreement not to do certain things, such as to drink underage (technically to get CAUGHT under the influence whether driving or not).

Abstinence from alcohol would be a much more acceptable vow to me because I don’t see it as potentially having a negative affect on their moral development-drinking is not inherently morally wrong so I don’t see it as cheapening their morals-I don’t know, maybe it doesn’t make sense, but it just seems more acceptable to me.

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One thing you also have to keep in mind with the people who do these Chastity Vows is that ‘virgin’ is an extremely important social label. You ever hear of the term ‘second virginity’? It’s when the person has had sex and they ask god’s forgiveness and then live their life as a virgin after that til they’re married or dead. They do that and they can call themselves a virgin again.

This idea to me is stupid. A good analogy someone made that pretty much sums up how stupid I feel it is is this: If I murder someone and ask god’s forgiveness and don’t murder anyone after that I don’t get to go around as if I’ve never murdered anyone.

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[quote]jsbrook wrote:
I saw on the news last year that boys and girls who do this have 10x as much anal sex as normal couples. They think it’s not sex. Maybe you can’t get pregnant-that’s true. But it spreads STDs much more readily. Most who take this pledge aren’t oppposed to oral sex either.[/quote]

If this new attitude is the result of these chastity vows then I think they should be encouraged. It won’t last much longer than age 20 or so and then when they fall off the wagon everyone benefits

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this is just plain weird to me, but hey, I’m not an American, so be patient with me:

if fathers and daughters are doing the vows thing to <strengthen their relationship/psychologically shackle moral obligations/make it a disgrace of sorts for the girl to return the ring to her dad>, and provided that men and women are equal (religiously, in society, blah blah), then shouldn’t the mothers and sons do the same to <strengthen their relationship/psychologically shackle moral obligations/make it a disgrace of sorts for the son to return the ring to her mother>?

this just seems a BIG obligation for the girls to not give any until they ‘retake’ their vows with a groom (selected by the parents), while the son seems to be free of any responsibilities…
Expanding the whole picture to include every household, this just paints a scenario where either the black market for hoes makes ballbustin profits… that, or amatuer porn, depends which part of the city they’re living in…

i’ve heard of religion messing up lives in the dark ages, but this is a double edged sword because it virtually teaches the kids that sex is something dirty and an unholy act to be ignored until marriage (maybe not to your mindset, but put yourself in the shoes of a youngster, and how this event interprets itself), plus it places a huge moral obligation on just the girls… meaning there is a huge ‘shock’ phase they’ll go through once the event occurs prematurely (think crazy parties, date drugs, etc.)…

i’m all for strengthening family bonds and and all, but this major change (since its taking place globally now) is freaking me out. if the legal marriage vows should be of any indication (last year in USA, 65% get a divorce after calling the other ‘unfaithful’) and the fact that porn sites/videos operate on the fact that they’re making profits, then this thing is beyond hypocrisy.

just my view. no i don’t have daughters… i’m still a virgin myself.

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oh my bad, i didn’t know you guys were done with this topic…

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[quote]mertdawg wrote:
pushharder wrote:
mertdawg wrote:

Still, I am not vehemently against “vows”, my point is that it is in direct opposition to the process of moral decision making. It is telling a kid “Don’t think about moral right and wrong, think about keeping your vow”

If we can’t explain to our kids why we believe that something is morally wrong, then we have no buisiness holding them to it. If we can, then we vows are a step in the wrong developmental moral direction.

[/quote]

Been off of T-Nation for a few days; but this topic really sparked my curiosity. Anyway, after reading all 7 pages I am now pissed b/c Mertdog explained my exact thoughts on the subject in his post.

Anyway, strange subject. BTW, I do not have a kid…or so I hope ; )

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[quote]Ghost22 wrote:
Haven’t we figured out that this abstinence crap doesn’t work and that by not educating instead of indoctrinating we’re screwing the kid?

I wanna hand out free condoms outside the event.[/quote]

Lol I could see that.

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[quote]mertdawg wrote:
By the way, 70% of 16-17 year olds claimed to be virgins in an anonomous response to a recent study. Only 30% of 18-19 year olds did, but its interesting to me that that’s the age where people used to get married.

Perceptions were quite different however, as 16-17 year olds believed that 75% of kids their age were sexually active.
[/quote]

A few days late and a little off-topic, but the University of Oklahoma recently did an unscientific, anonymous sexuality survey on their students. Most of the results were run-of-the-mill, but one item in particular jumped out at me.

According to the survey, 30% of University male students were currently still virgins, and 40% of University female students were currently still virgins. Further, the survey also tracked the number of sex partners students had, and the results were similarly surprising.

If you trust the accuracy of the survey, the implications were that, by and large, University of Oklahoma students are responsible about sex. Many have chosen to abstain. It is the outliers, the small number of students of both genders who are literally fucking like rabbits that are throwing off the averages.

For instance, 566 out of 600 females surveyed had 9 or fewer sex partners. 342 out of 600 have had 1 or zero sex partners.

For males, 438 out of 500 have had single digit partners, and 229 out of 500 have had 1 or zero partners.

Those students who engage in promiscuous casual sex are in the very small minority.

A snippet of the survey is available here:

http://hub.ou.edu/articles/article.php?article_id=1058628784&search_id=1578016249