The obsession came from it being hammered into our heads for 50 years that is was required for the best results by the teachers who we looked up to and their books, articles and newsletters. Not only was it suggested that you train to failure but those who didn’t were accused of simply not being willing work hard enough for the results they wanted.
I think that’s where the obsession came from …
An observation:
In parts of the S&C world, the argument for staying away from failure is that it allows you to do more volume with heavier weights, which is deemed more productive. Because volume is king!
Among people who train with or for a pump, you also have folks who train with a huge amount of volume. You mentioned John Meadows as an example. Jay Cutler probably also falls into that camp.
Yet here you are proposing to stay away from failure, train with/for a pump AND YET employ a fairly low level of volume. Yes, it is three sets, rather than one, but that is still at the low end of the volume spectrum, low enough that HIT fans should not be too put off…
I will be very curious to see if the results of this lower volume approach are as good as promised.
Also… the theories about why training with a pump is valuable seem to center on the mechanical stresses induced by the swelling, and not what is causing the swelling.
As for the hypertrophic benefits of nutrients being present during the workout: I can’t say that I’ve seen any discussion of this in the research literature. Maybe I missed it? In any case, I start from a position of being skeptical just because protein synthesis peaks something like 24 hours after a workout, long after the pump would have dissipated. Is it really possible for those nutrients to be “trapped” in the muscle and linger long enough to be useful?
I don’t get taking in nutrients during a workout either. Maybe if it was a marathon two hour workout, bike race , etc out I could see something possibly being beneficial but for a hard 30 - 40 minute workout, I don’t see anything other than a stimulant taken before the workout helping anything. As far as nutrients go, why wouldn’t they already be present in the body if you’re following a decent diet to begin with ?
I know that, but it’s not my experience. I’m so fast-twitch dominant that going to failure wasn’t a viable option for me. So I had to get a better understanding of what was going on with mechanical work, which led me to some surprising answers.
Arthur told me that his failures taught him more than his successes and that success typically only reinforced one’s superstitions. And he was right.
I’m sorry that overzealous teachers (probably well-meaning) routinely used training to failure to cudgel students into submission. That practice was wrong and got a lot of people off track, many losing interest and quitting.
The goal should be to keep people purposefully training throughout life.
Ray Mentzer said (relating to volume), “Tim, it’s not in the extremes; it’s somewhere in the reasonable zone.” He insisted on using a “reasonable” test and common sense. I think that’s great practical advice for most things.
We’re now using five sets per body part with layered techniques and methods. That’s a massive increase in work volume compared to one set, but it’s nowhere near a three-hour training death march. More importantly, it produces the best results we’ve seen, and it’s efficient. In other words, it’s reasonable.
Being open-minded and skeptical is perfect. And I believe that describes you.
It’s absolutely possible to do something (nutrient-wise) during the workout that dramatically affects growth long after the training ends. In some sense, it’s pretty simple. All we’re doing is helping the body to do its job, but only better.
When talking about a nutrient timing window, Brad Schoenfeld refers to more of a “barn door”. If you eat before (or during?) excercise, there is no hurry to eat afterwards - and vice versa.
Periworkout nutrition seems to take this out of the equation.
I love this new talk of not needing failure training within the HIT community, which leads me to believe that i can incorporate the original nautilus routines without fear of overtraining because i will be stopping short of failure and can alternate the various routines 3x/week…as long as the focus is on form, contractions and variety and not on weight and reaching failure
Please explain what exactly are layering techniques are?
Thanks
I’m surprised you haven’t downloaded The Surge Challenge Principles. It’s FREE!
We’re discussing these ideas in other topic threads. Are you not checking those out?
Prowl around. You’re missing out.
DOWNLOAD:
The Surge Challenge Principles.pdf (119.2 KB)
Sure you can. But not going to failure is only one of many interesting and productive changes you could make to old Nautilus routines.
You could use a similar strategy as Aurthur when he trained Casey for the Mr. America contest (not the Colorado Experiment). Arthur had Casey do one set that’s similar to our Stimulate Phase and one set that’s similar to our Pump Phase – except he did the sets in reverse order than we’re doing.
I have a couple of first tries in mind.
You need to read The Charge Challenge Principles. It’s filled with some of our new information about rep performance, weight selection, rep styles, and more.
Hi fellas. This is all very interesting, I’ve been a member for many years, though not visited for quite a while. To see such a turnaround is a big surprise. I am glad the feeling about training to failure has changed, I think as I got older after many years of grinding I came to realise it for myself, to failure training is certainly not always wise, certainly as we get into the later stages of life. I got fed up of feeling run down, beat up and well, mildly ill the day after a workout.
Anyway, good luck to all those participating in the trials - for want of a better word. I will be hangjng around the forum again so will keep myself updated, probably incorporate some of the techniques too. Cheers everyone!
If this was towards me, i did not feel it would be right for me sign up for a challenge that i would not be 100% commited to (pics and training log)
We wrote the principles for EVERYONE.
That’s why it’s on the forum as a download.
The principles are universally applicable – not just for the Surge Challenge – and will be continuously updated and expanded.
I don’t care if you do the Challenge or not.
But I do care that you read the principles.
I read them, very interesting
And very effective.
Hey Tim, I see the surge challenge thread is closed, you mentioned there is a forum/thread for results, is that only for people doing the challenge or can anyone watch that thread and see how the people doing this, are doing?
The Surge Challenge is open to everyone to watch. We want visitors.
Posting is limited to members so that we can devote our time to them.
You’re welcome to start another thread to discuss the project.
I did read them… saw one curious omission. In the description of the pump set, there is no indication of how long that set is supposed to last, or how many reps you are supposed to do. I didn’t see anything that describes what ends the set. Did I miss it, or was it just an oversight?
I also am curious about how crucial the 60 second rest periods are. Seems that you will probably have to change weights between each of the three phases. Not an issue on a machine with a weight stack, or if you have a full rack of dumbbells. But I have Ironmaster adjustable dumbbells and those take a bit of time to adjust the weight.
ok thanks!
