Voddie Baucham Why I Choose to Believe the Bible Part 5

[Brother_Chris]

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Are you fucking high? You wrote all that, most of which is some permutation or the other of a first cause? In an eternal universe, there is no first cause. Now what?[/quote]

Actually, I didn’t Thomas Aquinas did. As is evident to me, in the real world there is no eternal universe, and there is a first cause. Now what?

And, eternal universe begs the question.[/quote]

“Az is evident to you” is quite irrelevant until such time you experience other dimensions, quantum fluctuations and all the other physical strangeness of the universe you cannot grok. Eternal begs no question - it just “is”…as it is beyond your ability to grok b/c you fall right back into the paradox of your experience with time.[/quote]

Have you experienced these other dimensions and such?

So what you are saying (correct me if I am wrong) science says the Universe is 13.5 billion years old…and you say it is eternal?[/quote]

Logic and science fail for you sir![/quote]

And the only thing you lack more than manners is tact.

[Brother_Chris]

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
The Holy Ghost was such a kidder right?

[/quote]

No, women are not to be in the priesthood and women are to wear veils to Mass or Divine Liturgy.[/quote]

Being generous, we can defend the Bible and say it (suppressing women) was the culture at the time. Or, we can develop the view (similar to some Muslims) that women are so cherished, the suppression is for their own protection.

But to hold to this view in this day and age is very sad indeed. Might as well be the Taliban.

Honestly, some of the best spiritual teachings I’ve ever received have been from women.[/quote]

Well, following “being generous” and, that the bible is the inerrant word of God (because if it is not, everything crumbles), then we can conclude that God was necessarily oppressing women. Amiwrong?[/quote]

So you’d agree that the Eastern tradition of covering your head as a sign of respect to people is oppressive?

[Brother_Chris]

[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
That’s like in the movie Greek Wedding, I believe. The mother acknowledged that the man was the Head of the House, but the woman was the Neck…and could therefore direct the Head. I thought that was funny as hell.[/quote]

Middle-age theology wrote of the Lord Jesus being the head and the Queen Mary being the neck of the Church while the rest of us was his Body.

[Brother_Chris]

[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
I really don’t know what to think about it. It confuses me. What about all the shit Paul starts to talk about…don’t eat this and that…unclean this, unclean that…WTF? …sounds like the Diet section on T-Nation. [/quote]

If you don’t mind, where do you find that?

[Brother_Chris]

[quote]Oleena wrote:
By meditating do you mean prayer or do you mean meditation as a Buddhist monk would tell you to do it (and yes, you could meditate as a Buddhist monk does with the concepts of universal love and care laid out by Jesus in your mind but that’s not close to the same thing as prayer.)

First of all, what do you mean by “the world as we see it today”? Do you mean earth, the galaxy, the universe, humanity? What are you getting at. And to all of those, my answer is I don’t know but probably not.
[/quote]

Just to point out that Buddhist meditation would go against Christian morals as we’re not supposed to let our intellect and will be weakened.

[system]

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
The Holy Ghost was such a kidder right?

[/quote]

No, women are not to be in the priesthood and women are to wear veils to Mass or Divine Liturgy.[/quote]

Being generous, we can defend the Bible and say it (suppressing women) was the culture at the time. Or, we can develop the view (similar to some Muslims) that women are so cherished, the suppression is for their own protection.

But to hold to this view in this day and age is very sad indeed. Might as well be the Taliban.

Honestly, some of the best spiritual teachings I’ve ever received have been from women.[/quote]

I’m sure, I read the Doctors of the Church (they are the people who’s writing is of the highest caliber) which have women in their ranks. However, they still are not to be in the priesthood and are supposed to wear veils. Paul told the Corinthians to forget their modern sensibilities, they will only lead them away from the Lord. As well, a woman cannot be in persona Christi, it would be impossible even if we did try and ordain a woman. It would just be invalid.[/quote]

What about Galations 3:28 - There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.(KJV) ?

http://www.unification.net/ws/theme030.htm

[orion]

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
I can NOT say I check out every single link anyone provides especially in SAMA but if interested my mouse will click on it = ]

[quote]Oleena wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
You are allowed to think what ever you like or even not think. You don’t believe every link you provide do you, or vice versa?

[quote]Oleena wrote:
Kneed- You might be interested to know that I both pray and meditate. I personally think prayer works. I can’t pretend to argue about it though, or get mad that someone else doesn’t believe me, or think thoughts about how much better their life would be if they did, because I don’t really KNOW that it works. I just think that and I also think that when black cats cross my path something bad is going to happen.

I will consider all evidence that you throw up (and have looked at links and videos that you’ve posted and even learned a bit about the proliferation of Christianity), but I don’t feel that you’re considering what I’m presenting in return (actually clicking on links, reading things, etc).[/quote]
[/quote]

I’m not implying that you read them and discarded them because you didn’t believe them, I’m saying I’m not sure if you checked out my links or not. [/quote]
[/quote]

If you mouse leads you to temptation. um, rip it out of your usb port?

[Oleena]

This happens quite a bit because I like to take time questioning people, debating with them, and getting to the bottom of what they actually think. Most of the people I keep close to me, I go through a phase near the beginning of our friendship where we are arguing all the time. Then, we reach impasses or discover that we mean the same thing, or learn something from the other person that changes our stance to agreement. After that, there arguments rarely arise and we feel very supported/understood by each other

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
How often has this happened in your life? LOL Sorry I had to ; )

In addition, I believe we all pray our own ways. Now that is just me.

[quote]Oleena wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
I DO pray as a Catholic and say a rosary everyday as I walk to school. I also try to peacefully say to myself the following. Actually this is almost exactly what I try to do.

Maranatha Meditation

The world is infinitely complex and has immense details, even more complex in our own bodies. The best part, after seeing and experiencing the highs and lows I know there is a God. However subjective that might be to you shrug
[/quote]

I have no argument with this whatsoever.

[/quote]
[/quote]

[Oleena]

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:
You do realize that’s not the trilemma most people are thinking about when they hear the word, right?

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:
Brother Chris- How does the trilemma [/quote]

No, it’s just something I vaguely came to a conclusion about and I was talking to my dear friend about it, and she asked me if I had read C.S. Lewis (I had no clue who he was at the time) and I said no, and she told me that it was an author she read all the time as a kid before she became an atheist.

Jesus could have been three things as I see it (I had a few others because I wasn’t entirely sure if I had processed everything correctly): lunatic, liar, or lord. You have those three options, based on the historical account. I choose the third option. I could be wrong, but I can’t see it.

And, if he was lord than his Traditions would be valid. I don’t much care if someone doesn’t believe Jesus is lord, I wish they would, but they have free will and reason for a reason. And, as long as they follow Natural Law, I’m not much to interfere with other people’s business when it comes to religion as I respect people’s freedom of conscience. They can figure it out if they want to, I’ll stand here patiently if anyone wants me to instruct them.[/quote]
[/quote]

What is the Trilemma you were thinking about?[/quote]

1.if God is unable to prevent evil, he is not omnipotent
2.if God is not willing to prevent evil, he is not good
3. if God is willing and able to prevent evil, then why is there evil?

[Oleena]

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:
By meditating do you mean prayer or do you mean meditation as a Buddhist monk would tell you to do it (and yes, you could meditate as a Buddhist monk does with the concepts of universal love and care laid out by Jesus in your mind but that’s not close to the same thing as prayer.)

First of all, what do you mean by “the world as we see it today”? Do you mean earth, the galaxy, the universe, humanity? What are you getting at. And to all of those, my answer is I don’t know but probably not.
[/quote]

Just to point out that Buddhist meditation would go against Christian morals as we’re not supposed to let our intellect and will be weakened.[/quote]

Yeah, many Christians don’t believe in meditation and go so far as to say that it could put you closer to the devil. It’s most certainly not an originally christian or Catholic practice, and if religions other than the judeo-Christian didn’t exist, we wouldn’t have it.

Edit: Although, I’ve never seen them argue that it would weaken your intellect or will. Why do you say that?

[forbes]

[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
The Holy Ghost was such a kidder right?

[/quote]

No, women are not to be in the priesthood and women are to wear veils to Mass or Divine Liturgy.[/quote]

Being generous, we can defend the Bible and say it (suppressing women) was the culture at the time. Or, we can develop the view (similar to some Muslims) that women are so cherished, the suppression is for their own protection.

But to hold to this view in this day and age is very sad indeed. Might as well be the Taliban.

Honestly, some of the best spiritual teachings I’ve ever received have been from women.[/quote]

I’m sure, I read the Doctors of the Church (they are the people who’s writing is of the highest caliber) which have women in their ranks. However, they still are not to be in the priesthood and are supposed to wear veils. Paul told the Corinthians to forget their modern sensibilities, they will only lead them away from the Lord. As well, a woman cannot be in persona Christi, it would be impossible even if we did try and ordain a woman. It would just be invalid.[/quote]

What about Galations 3:28 - There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.(KJV) ?

http://www.unification.net/ws/theme030.htm[/quote]

That is talking about salvation.

[system]

[quote]forbes wrote:

[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
The Holy Ghost was such a kidder right?

[/quote]

No, women are not to be in the priesthood and women are to wear veils to Mass or Divine Liturgy.[/quote]

Being generous, we can defend the Bible and say it (suppressing women) was the culture at the time. Or, we can develop the view (similar to some Muslims) that women are so cherished, the suppression is for their own protection.

But to hold to this view in this day and age is very sad indeed. Might as well be the Taliban.

Honestly, some of the best spiritual teachings I’ve ever received have been from women.[/quote]

I’m sure, I read the Doctors of the Church (they are the people who’s writing is of the highest caliber) which have women in their ranks. However, they still are not to be in the priesthood and are supposed to wear veils. Paul told the Corinthians to forget their modern sensibilities, they will only lead them away from the Lord. As well, a woman cannot be in persona Christi, it would be impossible even if we did try and ordain a woman. It would just be invalid.[/quote]

What about Galations 3:28 - There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.(KJV) ?

http://www.unification.net/ws/theme030.htm[/quote]

That is talking about salvation.[/quote]

Oh I see. There must be a distinction between ‘in Christ Jesus’ and ‘in persona Christi’ wherein anyone can be ‘in Christ Jesus’ but it’s ‘impossible’ for a woman to be ‘in persona Christi’. Good thing I’m not a catholic, I don’t know how I’d ever figure such things out. Surely, Brother Chris will be along shortly to explain it.

[KneeDragger_79]

I have no problem answering your questions, or anyone. If I do miss a question, I blame my reading of the forums. I do NOT recall every conversation I have and I lack the time to chase every question to everyones satisfaction. But I try ; )

When conversing, debating or anything that involves conversation, I try to be as honest as possible with myself. If I do NOT know, then I generally say nothing. However when people spread ignorance AND their opinions tied with the subject. I step in and try to show them the verifiable science to back my stance. Now that is at my intent ; )

[quote]Oleena wrote:
This happens quite a bit because I like to take time questioning people, debating with them, and getting to the bottom of what they actually think. Most of the people I keep close to me, I go through a phase near the beginning of our friendship where we are arguing all the time. Then, we reach impasses or discover that we mean the same thing, or learn something from the other person that changes our stance to agreement. After that, there arguments rarely arise and we feel very supported/understood by each other

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
How often has this happened in your life? LOL Sorry I had to ; )

In addition, I believe we all pray our own ways. Now that is just me.

[quote]Oleena wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
I DO pray as a Catholic and say a rosary everyday as I walk to school. I also try to peacefully say to myself the following. Actually this is almost exactly what I try to do.

you tube link

The world is infinitely complex and has immense details, even more complex in our own bodies. The best part, after seeing and experiencing the highs and lows I know there is a God. However subjective that might be to you shrug
[/quote]

I have no argument with this whatsoever.

[/quote]
[/quote]
[/quote]

[Brother_Chris]

[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
The Holy Ghost was such a kidder right?

[/quote]

No, women are not to be in the priesthood and women are to wear veils to Mass or Divine Liturgy.[/quote]

Being generous, we can defend the Bible and say it (suppressing women) was the culture at the time. Or, we can develop the view (similar to some Muslims) that women are so cherished, the suppression is for their own protection.

But to hold to this view in this day and age is very sad indeed. Might as well be the Taliban.

Honestly, some of the best spiritual teachings I’ve ever received have been from women.[/quote]

I’m sure, I read the Doctors of the Church (they are the people who’s writing is of the highest caliber) which have women in their ranks. However, they still are not to be in the priesthood and are supposed to wear veils. Paul told the Corinthians to forget their modern sensibilities, they will only lead them away from the Lord. As well, a woman cannot be in persona Christi, it would be impossible even if we did try and ordain a woman. It would just be invalid.[/quote]

What about Galations 3:28 - There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.(KJV) ?

http://www.unification.net/ws/theme030.htm[/quote]

KJV…

3:28 you are all one: All peoples, irrespective of ethnic, gender, and social distinctions, are equal candidates for salvation and sonship in Christ (Col 3:11; CCC 791). You have to be in body of Christ to be saved.

Ver. 28.â??There is neither Jew nor Greek.â??i.e., in Christ. In the Church of Christ there is no distinction before God of birth, position, or sex. All, whether Jews or Greeks (= Gentiles), whether slaves or freemen, whether males or females, make one mystical body, the Church, of which the Head is Christ.

[Brother_Chris]

[quote]Oleena wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:
You do realize that’s not the trilemma most people are thinking about when they hear the word, right?

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:
Brother Chris- How does the trilemma [/quote]

No, it’s just something I vaguely came to a conclusion about and I was talking to my dear friend about it, and she asked me if I had read C.S. Lewis (I had no clue who he was at the time) and I said no, and she told me that it was an author she read all the time as a kid before she became an atheist.

Jesus could have been three things as I see it (I had a few others because I wasn’t entirely sure if I had processed everything correctly): lunatic, liar, or lord. You have those three options, based on the historical account. I choose the third option. I could be wrong, but I can’t see it.

And, if he was lord than his Traditions would be valid. I don’t much care if someone doesn’t believe Jesus is lord, I wish they would, but they have free will and reason for a reason. And, as long as they follow Natural Law, I’m not much to interfere with other people’s business when it comes to religion as I respect people’s freedom of conscience. They can figure it out if they want to, I’ll stand here patiently if anyone wants me to instruct them.[/quote]
[/quote]

What is the Trilemma you were thinking about?[/quote]

1.if God is unable to prevent evil, he is not omnipotent
2.if God is not willing to prevent evil, he is not good
3. if God is willing and able to prevent evil, then why is there evil?[/quote]

That’s easy, G-d let’s evil happen for the greater good. I knew that before I even started looking.

[Brother_Chris]

[quote]Oleena wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:
By meditating do you mean prayer or do you mean meditation as a Buddhist monk would tell you to do it (and yes, you could meditate as a Buddhist monk does with the concepts of universal love and care laid out by Jesus in your mind but that’s not close to the same thing as prayer.)

First of all, what do you mean by “the world as we see it today”? Do you mean earth, the galaxy, the universe, humanity? What are you getting at. And to all of those, my answer is I don’t know but probably not.
[/quote]

Just to point out that Buddhist meditation would go against Christian morals as we’re not supposed to let our intellect and will be weakened.[/quote]

Yeah, many Christians don’t believe in meditation and go so far as to say that it could put you closer to the devil. It’s most certainly not an originally christian or Catholic practice, and if religions other than the judeo-Christian didn’t exist, we wouldn’t have it.

Edit: Although, I’ve never seen them argue that it would weaken your intellect or will. Why do you say that?[/quote]

I maybe wrong, but Catholics have lots of meditations. So, I’m not sure there wouldn’t be meditation if there weren’t other religions. Every time one of those meditations threads pops up I post a bunch of Catholic meditations resources in there.

Because with Catholic meditation you are focusing on something, with Buddhist meditation you’re clearing your mind trying to not think. Catholics are big on free will, intellect, and responsibility. So, stopping thinking does two things, it opens your mind to demonic influence and possibly it would allow for you to do something grave unwillingly.

[Brother_Chris]

[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
Oh I see. There must be a distinction between ‘in Christ Jesus’ and ‘in persona Christi’ wherein anyone can be ‘in Christ Jesus’ but it’s ‘impossible’ for a woman to be ‘in persona Christi’. Good thing I’m not a catholic, I don’t know how I’d ever figure such things out. Surely, Brother Chris will be along shortly to explain it. [/quote]

2 Corinthians 2:10 (in Latin): cui autem aliquid donatis et ego nam et ego quod donavi si quid donavi propter vos in persona Christi

2 Corinthians 2:10 (in English): And to whom you have pardoned any thing, I also. For, what I have pardoned, if I have pardoned any thing, for your sakes have I done it in the person of Christ.

[system]

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
The Holy Ghost was such a kidder right?

[/quote]

No, women are not to be in the priesthood and women are to wear veils to Mass or Divine Liturgy.[/quote]

Being generous, we can defend the Bible and say it (suppressing women) was the culture at the time. Or, we can develop the view (similar to some Muslims) that women are so cherished, the suppression is for their own protection.

But to hold to this view in this day and age is very sad indeed. Might as well be the Taliban.

Honestly, some of the best spiritual teachings I’ve ever received have been from women.[/quote]

I’m sure, I read the Doctors of the Church (they are the people who’s writing is of the highest caliber) which have women in their ranks. However, they still are not to be in the priesthood and are supposed to wear veils. Paul told the Corinthians to forget their modern sensibilities, they will only lead them away from the Lord. As well, a woman cannot be in persona Christi, it would be impossible even if we did try and ordain a woman. It would just be invalid.[/quote]

What about Galations 3:28 - There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.(KJV) ?

http://www.unification.net/ws/theme030.htm[/quote]

KJV…

3:28 you are all one: All peoples, irrespective of ethnic, gender, and social distinctions, are equal candidates for salvation and sonship in Christ (Col 3:11; CCC 791). You have to be in body of Christ to be saved.

Ver. 28.â??There is neither Jew nor Greek.â??i.e., in Christ. In the Church of Christ there is no distinction before God of birth, position, or sex. All, whether Jews or Greeks (= Gentiles), whether slaves or freemen, whether males or females, make one mystical body, the Church, of which the Head is Christ.

[/quote]

Fine. How does that support your earlier statement ‘a woman cannot be in persona Christi, it would be impossible even if we did try and ordain a woman. It would just be invalid.’?

I’m not crazy about discrimination in its various flavors (age, sex, race, position). It reeks like bad fruit to me.

[TheBodyGuard]

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Are you fucking high? You wrote all that, most of which is some permutation or the other of a first cause? In an eternal universe, there is no first cause. Now what?[/quote]

Actually, I didn’t Thomas Aquinas did. As is evident to me, in the real world there is no eternal universe, and there is a first cause. Now what?

And, eternal universe begs the question.[/quote]

“Az is evident to you” is quite irrelevant until such time you experience other dimensions, quantum fluctuations and all the other physical strangeness of the universe you cannot grok. Eternal begs no question - it just “is”…as it is beyond your ability to grok b/c you fall right back into the paradox of your experience with time.[/quote]

Have you experienced these other dimensions and such?

So what you are saying (correct me if I am wrong) science says the Universe is 13.5 billion years old…and you say it is eternal?[/quote]

Logic and science fail for you sir![/quote]

And the only thing you lack more than manners is tact.[/quote]

I see you conveniently deleted the rest of the reply. And one of the things you lack is a sound retort.

[TheBodyGuard]

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
The Holy Ghost was such a kidder right?

[/quote]

No, women are not to be in the priesthood and women are to wear veils to Mass or Divine Liturgy.[/quote]

Being generous, we can defend the Bible and say it (suppressing women) was the culture at the time. Or, we can develop the view (similar to some Muslims) that women are so cherished, the suppression is for their own protection.

But to hold to this view in this day and age is very sad indeed. Might as well be the Taliban.

Honestly, some of the best spiritual teachings I’ve ever received have been from women.[/quote]

Well, following “being generous” and, that the bible is the inerrant word of God (because if it is not, everything crumbles), then we can conclude that God was necessarily oppressing women. Amiwrong?[/quote]

So you’d agree that the Eastern tradition of covering your head as a sign of respect to people is oppressive?[/quote]

Changing the subject. Nice try. Are you going to employ all the fallacious arguments, or just some of them?