Vick Indicted!

mazilla · August 16, 2007, 7:56pm

[quote]JokerFMJ wrote:

Do you mean, “either way,” as in guilty or not?

He’s innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, not a court of opinion or media. I won’t say i’m surprised that you seem to have already come to the conclusion that he’s guilty - many have. I will say however, that I think that’s a very poor view point to have taken.
[/quote]

hmmm, does it seem like that? i wonder if it’s because of the bounty of evidence against him? “either way”, we know he had something to do with he. he owns the damn property. given all of that, i still said if all the proof was false he should be let go. i dont understand your difficulty with my “point of view”.

Airtruth · August 16, 2007, 9:00pm

[quote]BLACKSMITH wrote:
Did anyone catch Bob Costas’ show on HBO this week? He’s talking about dog fighting and he speaks to a former dog fighter. It was interesting. Did anyone know there were ‘how to’ videos for dog fighting? If you can catch it on a repeat, watch it.[/quote]

I will have to look and see if they show it agian.
I know they have world wide publications for it though, with records of all champion dogs and their heritage back almost a hundred years. I really couldn’t believe that they could have this yet, its supposedly illegal. I mean I understand they have High times but there were people selling dogs I think.

Airtruth · August 16, 2007, 9:07pm

[quote]mazilla wrote:
hmmm, does it seem like that? i wonder if it’s because of the bounty of evidence against him? “either way”, we know he had something to do with he. he owns the damn property. given all of that, i still said if all the proof was false he should be let go. i dont understand your difficulty with my “point of view”.

[/quote]

Difficulty comes in with how he should be punished, and how guilty he is. Should he be jailed on gambling or dog fighting? How many people honestly beleive the man was running home in between games and getting sacked to train dogs, breed them and execute them. People that do this don’t do it once a week, its $13000 on a fight. Yet they have him as a kingpin of the operation.

mazilla · August 16, 2007, 11:11pm

i understand what you mean, but regardless of his level of involvment the punishment need to be the most severe available. he is an example to children everywhere, and needs to be treated as such. he should not be allowed to duck out on being a roll model when it suits his need, it should come with the good and bad. the good, if you do well and keep your nose clean you make 100 miilion dollars. the bad, if you fuck up you lose it all. thats just my opinion.

OctoberGirl · August 17, 2007, 12:18am

[quote]JokerFMJ wrote:
dollarbill44 wrote:
I’m pretty sure that the Constitution only guarantees a court of opinion, but I’m not a lawyer, so you might want to verify this on your own.

DB

I’m not a lawyer either, but i’m pretty sure you’re wrong. I’m fairly certain that your actions are to be proven in correct, so there is no reasonable doubt by objective/impartial members of the jury, if it is a jury trial.[/quote]

Who is “in correct”? DB or Vick?

Can you imagine if we actually had LITERAL juries of our peers?

Everyone is tried in a court of opinion, in my opinion and sometimes we use the legal system.

MikeShank · August 17, 2007, 12:48am

Here is the latest update as of this evening. It looks like the plea may be on:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/football/nfl/08/16/bc.fbn.michaelvick.ap/index.html

RICHMOND, Va. (AP) – Michael Vick and his attorneys were still negotiating with federal prosecutors Thursday, hoping to strike a deal on a plea agreement, according to a lawyer familiar with the caseï¿½?ï¿½ï¿½?ï¿½
It’s highly unlikely prosecutors would offer Vick a specific reduced sentence in exchange for a guilty plea, according to Steven Benjamin, a prominent Richmond defense attorney. He said federal rules permit such agreements, subject to the judge’s approval, but they simply are not used in the Richmond federal court.
“If we were to see that in this case, it would be extraordinary,” he saidï¿½?ï¿½.
Rough calculations based on what is known in Vick’s case indicate that a guideline range of eight to 12 months “would not be unrealistic,” said Benjamin’s law partner, Betty Layne Desportes. The charges – conspiracy to travel in interstate commerce in aid of unlawful activities and conspiring to sponsor a dog in an animal fighting venture – carry a maximum prison term of five years and a $250,000 fine

JokerFMJ · August 17, 2007, 1:00am

[quote]mazilla wrote:
JokerFMJ wrote:

Do you mean, “either way,” as in guilty or not?

He’s innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, not a court of opinion or media. I won’t say i’m surprised that you seem to have already come to the conclusion that he’s guilty - many have. I will say however, that I think that’s a very poor view point to have taken.

hmmm, does it seem like that? i wonder if it’s because of the bounty of evidence against him? “either way”, we know he had something to do with he. he owns the damn property. given all of that, i still said if all the proof was false he should be let go. i dont understand your difficulty with my “point of view”.

[/quote]

You’re right, there is a great deal of evidence against him. However, many people had him convicted in their minds before they even read the indictment for themselves. I’m willing to bet many people still haven’t read the indictment and are just going along with what has been said in the media. I’ve noticed the media reporting many incorrect facts about what the indictment says. So if you get your information second hand, just be wary.

What I meant by, “I will say however, that I think that’s a very poor view point to have taken,” was simply that if you have this man convicted before he even goes to trial, that’s just a bad way to look at things.

JokerFMJ · August 17, 2007, 1:02am

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
Who is “in correct”? DB or Vick?

Can you imagine if we actually had LITERAL juries of our peers?

Everyone is tried in a court of opinion, in my opinion and sometimes we use the legal system.
[/quote]

Sorry, I meant in court and fixed that in my post.

And yes, everyone is tried in a court of opinion, especially celebrities, but no one goes to jail based on the outcome of that.

OctoberGirl · August 17, 2007, 1:26am

[quote]JokerFMJ wrote:
And yes, everyone is tried in a court of opinion, especially celebrities, but no one goes to jail based on the outcome of that.[/quote]

I agree that sometimes being a celebrity can work against you, being made an example and all that, but don’t you think in a jury trial it can work for you?

OJ did it. Kobe did it.

but then on the other side, Martha Stewart, Paris Hilton, hhhhmmmm I just don’t know.

OctoberGirl · August 17, 2007, 1:31am

[quote]Airtruth wrote:
mazilla wrote:
hmmm, does it seem like that? i wonder if it’s because of the bounty of evidence against him? “either way”, we know he had something to do with he. he owns the damn property. given all of that, i still said if all the proof was false he should be let go. i dont understand your difficulty with my “point of view”.

Difficulty comes in with how he should be punished, and how guilty he is. Should he be jailed on gambling or dog fighting? How many people honestly beleive the man was running home in between games and getting sacked to train dogs, breed them and execute them. People that do this don’t do it once a week, its $13000 on a fight. Yet they have him as a kingpin of the operation.
[/quote]

AirT

I do think he was well aware of the dog fights going on. I know with my family and my boyfriend that during football season, or hockey season they are on the phone with all their buddies talking it over play by play. If they aren’t talking during the game they are talking days later. My reasoning is, if Vick is a fan of dog fighting and he has a monetary interest and it is his cousin, don’t you think there were phone calls flying about the outcomes of these fights?

I don’t think Bill Gates bothered to show up to the office every day but I do think he ran the corporation.

I just wanted to give you an insight into some of my reasoning as to why I do believe he knew and aided in the runnings of the doggy death ranch.

Prometheus · August 17, 2007, 3:18am

[quote]MikeShank wrote:
Here is the latest update as of this evening. It looks like the plea may be on:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/football/nfl/08/16/bc.fbn.michaelvick.ap/index.html

RICHMOND, Va. (AP) – Michael Vick and his attorneys were still negotiating with federal prosecutors Thursday, hoping to strike a deal on a plea agreement, according to a lawyer familiar with the caseï¿½?ï¿½ï¿½?ï¿½
It’s highly unlikely prosecutors would offer Vick a specific reduced sentence in exchange for a guilty plea, according to Steven Benjamin, a prominent Richmond defense attorney. He said federal rules permit such agreements, subject to the judge’s approval, but they simply are not used in the Richmond federal court.
“If we were to see that in this case, it would be extraordinary,” he saidï¿½?ï¿½.
Rough calculations based on what is known in Vick’s case indicate that a guideline range of eight to 12 months “would not be unrealistic,” said Benjamin’s law partner, Betty Layne Desportes. The charges – conspiracy to travel in interstate commerce in aid of unlawful activities and conspiring to sponsor a dog in an animal fighting venture – carry a maximum prison term of five years and a $250,000 fine
[/quote]

Mike,

First off I want to thank you for starting this thread. I love my two dogs and couldnt imagine for the life of me hurting them.
That being said I understand hunting for food but not sport.

Anyways I thought I would share with yo usomething form Canada…
the underground dog fighting here appears to be very wide spread and run mostly from the US side as our laws are more lax.
The scariest thing I heard is a tactic they use to get bait dogs. Typically these guys belong to some form of crime ring… any number of groups you pick em they are probably involved. Anyways what they do is scan papers for ads where people are “giving away dog to good home” or selling them very cheap, puppies included.

Then send a family around with little kids sometimes… these freaks actually teach their kids that this is normal behaviour for their dogs. They take their kids to these thigns at a very young age. Tell me that doesn develope sociapathic behaviour in youngsters!
So most people see a cute little girl in pg tails and a nice clean cut family… say hey these people are nice lets give them the dog… they its hell for the dog.

If it isnt a fighting breed or cant be made into a fighter they will use it as a bait dog… they have equipment like a merry-go-round that they tie the fight dog to and then place the bait dog in a cage just out of reach and make the fighting dog run after it for hours to buold stamina… then after completing so many hours of work they give him the bait dog, cat, puppy whatever as a reward. This also encourages the blood lust…

If its a fighting dog they will lock it in a dark closed space for sometimes up to a month to break its spirit and lock it up again every time it doesnt perform until soon it will do whatever its owner asks and will be totally anti-social to other dogs…

This is BEYOND barbaric…

These people should be hunted down in our society… laws need to be toughened, especially here where the most they will see is a fine and a few years ban on owning an animal… when has that stopped a sociapath?Personally I would not be able to stop if I could get my hands on these kinds of people.

Sorry for the rant… this really has me crazy.

JokerFMJ · August 17, 2007, 3:24am

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
JokerFMJ wrote:
And yes, everyone is tried in a court of opinion, especially celebrities, but no one goes to jail based on the outcome of that.

I agree that sometimes being a celebrity can work against you, being made an example and all that, but don’t you think in a jury trial it can work for you?

OJ did it. Kobe did it.

but then on the other side, Martha Stewart, Paris Hilton, hhhhmmmm I just don’t know.
[/quote]

Kobe did it? … That’s just funny to me, I don’t know how anyone thinks that. Heh.

Martha Stewart got what she deserved… Anyone who obstructs justice as she did in a Federal case deserves that, in my opinion.

Paris Hilton deserved it to, as does anyone who gets a DUI while driving under a suspended license. But I have quite the hard line view on a lot of these particular things.

And if you read through the indictment, you’ll see Vick actually was present at most of the events mentioned, and according to Cooperating Witnesses, new about others.

JokerFMJ · August 17, 2007, 3:24am

I typed “…new about others,” when I obviously meant, “knew about others.”

Whoops.

OctoberGirl · August 17, 2007, 5:14am

[quote]JokerFMJ wrote:
Kobe did it? … That’s just funny to me, I don’t know how anyone thinks that. Heh.[/quote]

He confessed to it. Yah he did it. Funny, most everyone I know thinks he did it. Guess this is why the jury system is good and bad.

Martha federal case, Vick federal case. Maybe if her nickname had been Scooter!

I agree with you on Paris. That and ALL DUI! That is just crazy when you hear about people with 3 or 4 or 5 or more tickets and arrests for DUI. Just insane.

My question was, does celebrity help or hurt you. I guess it just depends on the jury. Maybe it doesn’t help or hurt you but it sure gives you a lot of news coverage.

Oh I think Vick is guilty. I hadn’t meant to imply that I thought he wasn’t.

I’ve read the indictment. He’s a no-good.

BLACKSMITH · August 17, 2007, 4:42pm

[quote]BLACKSMITH wrote:
Did anyone catch Bob Costas’ show on HBO this week? He’s talking about dog fighting and he speaks to a former dog fighter. It was interesting. Did anyone know there were ‘how to’ videos for dog fighting? If you can catch it on a repeat, watch it.[/quote]

CORRECTION: It was ‘Real Sports’ with Bryant Gumble.

Airtruth · August 17, 2007, 7:10pm

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
JokerFMJ wrote:
Kobe did it? … That’s just funny to me, I don’t know how anyone thinks that. Heh.